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Cryonics, is it the logical option?

Chloe8
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11/18/2016 7:24:40 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
Cryonics is the deep-freezing of the bodies of those who have died of an incurable disease, in the hope of a future cure. It is something I find quite interesting and I have read the following article about the subject on the website of a Cyronics company.

http://www.alcor.org...

It's all speculation and guesswork but I think it's fair to say it's not a scientific impossibility cryonics could be possible even if it appears highly unlikely. When you think about it though the odds of each individual person coming into existence is estimated at 1 in 10^2,685,000 yet me and each of you reading this defied those odds to come into existence by pure coincidence. That leads me to the conclusion that if you are an individual with plenty of money to fund the cryonics procedure and long term freezing, don't believe in the existence of any form of afterlife or even consider it a remote possibility and have the desire to live longer, eternally or be able to see what the future looks like why is cryonics not the logical option?

The answer is that people with desires and hopes for continued existence are much more likely to adopt religious beliefs that often promise a near guarentee of eternal life without the need for any financial contribution during their lifetime than a fringe science or arguably science fiction procedure that looks to offer around a 1% chance at best of actually working. Non religious people generally reject fringe science and speculative ideas that lack neccessary foundation and knowledge to be shown to be realistic possibilities. This explains why less than 1, 000 people have been cryopreserved so far despite it being nearly 50 years since the first person was cyropreserved.

When reading about this sad case I had a lot of sympathy for the young girl in question and actually admire her decision to do something so unconventional and controversial.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...

In my opinion although cryonics seems highly unlikely to ever work can we know with certainty such technological advances can totally be ruled out?

As crazy and desperate as freezing your dead body at -180 degrees Celsius may appear hoping for a revival at some point in the future it is still far more logical than speculating on the existence of a god or god's and hoping the god imagined and invented by humans actually exists and has/ have the potential to give you an afterlife.

My question is, would you consider becoming a cryonaut?

As for me it's something I don't currently consider credible enough to be worth doing but I'm not ruling it out if the evidence suggests there is a realistic possibility of it working.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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11/18/2016 7:56:36 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
When I here about cryonics , I instantly think of Walt Disney doing it.
Wich then makes me think and believe . People who choose to have their body frozen , do so due to some level of narcissism they had. Wich is all good , but it ain't for me.

Maybe people that donate their body to science, shows a certain broad character about what kind of people they were. As well.

Now thinking about it
People that don't care about what happens to their body .
To people that want to be buried , then people that want to be cremated.
Come down to what they where like.
Nice post Chloe8.
R0b1Billion
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11/18/2016 9:09:16 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't freezing our cells cause them to burst? Has there ever been a single person to survive being frozen? I would imagine it has never worked and probably won't ever work either.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Sidewalker
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11/19/2016 2:38:00 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/18/2016 9:09:16 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't freezing our cells cause them to burst? Has there ever been a single person to survive being frozen? I would imagine it has never worked and probably won't ever work either.

I think the promise of Cryogenics is that you are frozen in hope that they find a cure for what you died from, AND they discover a way to unfreeze you bring you back to life.

It sounds expensive, who is supposed to pay for it? I suppose another assumption is that future generations are going to need people and will want to devote resources to bringing you back.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
R0b1Billion
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11/19/2016 2:52:46 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 2:38:00 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 11/18/2016 9:09:16 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't freezing our cells cause them to burst? Has there ever been a single person to survive being frozen? I would imagine it has never worked and probably won't ever work either.

I think the promise of Cryogenics is that you are frozen in hope that they find a cure for what you died from, AND they discover a way to unfreeze you bring you back to life.

It sounds expensive, who is supposed to pay for it? I suppose another assumption is that future generations are going to need people and will want to devote resources to bringing you back.

As freezing bursts the cell membranes, it seems to me you're better off just incinerating yourself because there is not much less chance of them reconstructing you that way anyway. Freezing appears macroscopically to have kept you intact, but you're just pudding in the shape of a body, really. Frozen pudding.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
keithprosser
Posts: 1,991
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11/19/2016 10:14:19 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 2:38:00 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
It sounds expensive, who is supposed to pay for it? I suppose another assumption is that future generations are going to need people and will want to devote resources to bringing you back.

I have no objection to being frozen and brought back to life, but I think the odds of it working aren't worth $200,000. I certainly don't crave resurrection enough to save up for it, but if I was a multi-billionaire I might go for it - why not?

It's like buying a lottery ticket for $1. Chances are it won't win and all you've done is waste $1, but $1 doesn't really make any difference. However $200,000 is a lot of money throw away on a near-certain loser. There are other things I'd rather spend that sort of money on.

I also have my suspicions that cryogenic companies are probably shakey investments. Who takes responsibility for the popsicles if it goes bust? Are there any laws to cover that?
Sidewalker
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11/19/2016 4:29:40 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 10:14:19 AM, keithprosser wrote:
At 11/19/2016 2:38:00 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
It sounds expensive, who is supposed to pay for it? I suppose another assumption is that future generations are going to need people and will want to devote resources to bringing you back.

I have no objection to being frozen and brought back to life, but I think the odds of it working aren't worth $200,000. I certainly don't crave resurrection enough to save up for it, but if I was a multi-billionaire I might go for it - why not?

It's like buying a lottery ticket for $1. Chances are it won't win and all you've done is waste $1, but $1 doesn't really make any difference. However $200,000 is a lot of money throw away on a near-certain loser. There are other things I'd rather spend that sort of money on.

I also have my suspicions that cryogenic companies are probably shakey investments. Who takes responsibility for the popsicles if it goes bust? Are there any laws to cover that?

Good point, and 'm petty sure the $200K is to freeze you and store you, I doubt it covers the procedure for unfreezing you and bringing you back to life if they ever figure that out...I'm sure it doesn't cover the cure for whatever it is you died from.

My question is, who pays for all of that? Do we really think that by the time they figure all that out the problem will be that there aren't enough people. I see a future when some scientist tells his peers, "Hey guys, I figured out how to bring all those cryogenically frozen people back to life" and the collective response is "Why?...you obviously have way too much time on your hands...get a life man".
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Chloe8
Posts: 2,607
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11/19/2016 7:10:54 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/18/2016 7:56:36 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
When I here about cryonics , I instantly think of Walt Disney doing it.
Wich then makes me think and believe . People who choose to have their body frozen , do so due to some level of narcissism they had. Wich is all good , but it ain't for me.

Yeah I think a lot of people associate Walt Disney with cyrogenics but actually he was not cyropreserved. The myth was actually not true.

I would agree that a significant number (but not all) of the people to have paid to be cyropreserved are narcissistic to some extent.

http://m.mentalfloss.com...

Maybe people that donate their body to science, shows a certain broad character about what kind of people they were. As well.

Yes agree donating the body to science is a much less selfish act especially if combined with organ donation when possible that will be of benefit to other people.

Now thinking about it
People that don't care about what happens to their body .
To people that want to be buried , then people that want to be cremated.
Come down to what they where like.
Nice post Chloe8.

Thanks, yes people can do what they like. People who choose cyrogenics should be respected for their choice in my opinion. If they have earned their money to pay for the procedure who can blame them. Their money, their body and their choice what happens with both their money and body after death.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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11/19/2016 7:40:27 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/18/2016 9:09:16 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't freezing our cells cause them to burst? Has there ever been a single person to survive being frozen? I would imagine it has never worked and probably won't ever work either.

Adding high concentrations of chemicals called cryoprotectants to cells permits tissue to be cooled to very low temperatures with little or no ice formation. The state of no ice formation at temperatures below -120"C is called vitrification. It is now possible to physically vitrify organs as large as the human brain, achieving excellent structural preservation without freezing.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,607
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11/19/2016 7:43:08 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 2:52:46 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 11/19/2016 2:38:00 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 11/18/2016 9:09:16 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't freezing our cells cause them to burst? Has there ever been a single person to survive being frozen? I would imagine it has never worked and probably won't ever work either.

I think the promise of Cryogenics is that you are frozen in hope that they find a cure for what you died from, AND they discover a way to unfreeze you bring you back to life.

It sounds expensive, who is supposed to pay for it? I suppose another assumption is that future generations are going to need people and will want to devote resources to bringing you back.

As freezing bursts the cell membranes, it seems to me you're better off just incinerating yourself because there is not much less chance of them reconstructing you that way anyway. Freezing appears macroscopically to have kept you intact, but you're just pudding in the shape of a body, really. Frozen pudding.

How are you any better off incinerating yourself? In my opinion the only loss from being cryopreserved is the financial one. If you have the money then there is nothing to lose really.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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11/19/2016 7:53:43 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 10:14:19 AM, keithprosser wrote:
At 11/19/2016 2:38:00 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
It sounds expensive, who is supposed to pay for it? I suppose another assumption is that future generations are going to need people and will want to devote resources to bringing you back.

I have no objection to being frozen and brought back to life, but I think the odds of it working aren't worth $200,000. I certainly don't crave resurrection enough to save up for it, but if I was a multi-billionaire I might go for it - why not?

Actually cryopreservation can lost as little as US $28, 000.

http://www.cryonics.org...

Would that make you slightly more interested?

It's like buying a lottery ticket for $1. Chances are it won't win and all you've done is waste $1, but $1 doesn't really make any difference. However $200,000 is a lot of money throw away on a near-certain loser. There are other things I'd rather spend that sort of money on.

Agree cryonics is a bit like buying an expensive lottery ticket but arguably if the only alternative is death what is there to lose? Money is no use to a dead person after all.

I also have my suspicions that cryogenic companies are probably shakey investments. Who takes responsibility for the popsicles if it goes bust? Are there any laws to cover that?

Agree that this is a significant problem. Even if eventually cryonics is proven to work your corpse could be disposed of before technology to bring it back to life was developed.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,732
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11/20/2016 8:09:39 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/20/2016 5:08:53 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Whys is the absurd pseudo science being discussed in a SCIENCE forum?

Should we expand the economics forum to include all forms of pseudoscience and not just econ?
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,108
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11/20/2016 11:54:50 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/18/2016 7:24:40 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Cryonics is the deep-freezing of the bodies of those who have died of an incurable disease, in the hope of a future cure. It is something I find quite interesting and I have read the following article about the subject on the website of a Cyronics company.

http://www.alcor.org...

It's all speculation and guesswork but I think it's fair to say it's not a scientific impossibility cryonics could be possible even if it appears highly unlikely. When you think about it though the odds of each individual person coming into existence is estimated at 1 in 10^2,685,000 yet me and each of you reading this defied those odds to come into existence by pure coincidence. That leads me to the conclusion that if you are an individual with plenty of money to fund the cryonics procedure and long term freezing, don't believe in the existence of any form of afterlife or even consider it a remote possibility and have the desire to live longer, eternally or be able to see what the future looks like why is cryonics not the logical option?

The answer is that people with desires and hopes for continued existence are much more likely to adopt religious beliefs that often promise a near guarentee of eternal life without the need for any financial contribution during their lifetime than a fringe science or arguably science fiction procedure that looks to offer around a 1% chance at best of actually working. Non religious people generally reject fringe science and speculative ideas that lack neccessary foundation and knowledge to be shown to be realistic possibilities. This explains why less than 1, 000 people have been cryopreserved so far despite it being nearly 50 years since the first person was cyropreserved.

When reading about this sad case I had a lot of sympathy for the young girl in question and actually admire her decision to do something so unconventional and controversial.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...

In my opinion although cryonics seems highly unlikely to ever work can we know with certainty such technological advances can totally be ruled out?

As crazy and desperate as freezing your dead body at -180 degrees Celsius may appear hoping for a revival at some point in the future it is still far more logical than speculating on the existence of a god or god's and hoping the god imagined and invented by humans actually exists and has/ have the potential to give you an afterlife.

My question is, would you consider becoming a cryonaut?

As for me it's something I don't currently consider credible enough to be worth doing but I'm not ruling it out if the evidence suggests there is a realistic possibility of it working.

I do not fear death, and do not believe waking up from a cryogenic state would be pleasant. I'm curious what dead people think about while they are being transported to the facility. Perhaps this is what its like...https://www.youtube.com...
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Quadrunner
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11/21/2016 12:01:07 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/18/2016 9:09:16 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't freezing our cells cause them to burst? Has there ever been a single person to survive being frozen? I would imagine it has never worked and probably won't ever work either.

They artificially pump your blood when your heart stops and keep your brain kickin while they fill you with antifreeze. Not sure what goes on at the cellular level.

If its not a scam, technically it will be scientific someday assuming they attempt recovery.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,607
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11/21/2016 6:27:26 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/20/2016 5:08:53 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Whys is the absurd pseudo science being discussed in a SCIENCE forum?

Where would you suggest would have been a more appropriate place to have started this thread and why?

In my opinion it's quite clearly a science related discussion and obviously belongs in this forum.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,607
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11/21/2016 6:38:35 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/20/2016 11:54:50 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 11/18/2016 7:24:40 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Cryonics is the deep-freezing of the bodies of those who have died of an incurable disease, in the hope of a future cure. It is something I find quite interesting and I have read the following article about the subject on the website of a Cyronics company.

http://www.alcor.org...

It's all speculation and guesswork but I think it's fair to say it's not a scientific impossibility cryonics could be possible even if it appears highly unlikely. When you think about it though the odds of each individual person coming into existence is estimated at 1 in 10^2,685,000 yet me and each of you reading this defied those odds to come into existence by pure coincidence. That leads me to the conclusion that if you are an individual with plenty of money to fund the cryonics procedure and long term freezing, don't believe in the existence of any form of afterlife or even consider it a remote possibility and have the desire to live longer, eternally or be able to see what the future looks like why is cryonics not the logical option?

The answer is that people with desires and hopes for continued existence are much more likely to adopt religious beliefs that often promise a near guarentee of eternal life without the need for any financial contribution during their lifetime than a fringe science or arguably science fiction procedure that looks to offer around a 1% chance at best of actually working. Non religious people generally reject fringe science and speculative ideas that lack neccessary foundation and knowledge to be shown to be realistic possibilities. This explains why less than 1, 000 people have been cryopreserved so far despite it being nearly 50 years since the first person was cyropreserved.

When reading about this sad case I had a lot of sympathy for the young girl in question and actually admire her decision to do something so unconventional and controversial.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...

In my opinion although cryonics seems highly unlikely to ever work can we know with certainty such technological advances can totally be ruled out?

As crazy and desperate as freezing your dead body at -180 degrees Celsius may appear hoping for a revival at some point in the future it is still far more logical than speculating on the existence of a god or god's and hoping the god imagined and invented by humans actually exists and has/ have the potential to give you an afterlife.

My question is, would you consider becoming a cryonaut?

As for me it's something I don't currently consider credible enough to be worth doing but I'm not ruling it out if the evidence suggests there is a realistic possibility of it working.

I do not fear death, and do not believe waking up from a cryogenic state would be pleasant. I'm curious what dead people think about while they are being transported to the facility. Perhaps this is what its like...https://www.youtube.com...

I agree it's possible being awoken from a cryogenic state would be unpleasant and it's possible that elements of experimentation could be used trying to bring people back to life that could be extremely unpleasant for the cryopreserved person as well as being ultimately unsuccessful in bringing someone back to life. It could potentially be essentially a second death experience hundreds of years after the first which is a strange thought!
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Annnaxim
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11/22/2016 9:32:40 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/20/2016 5:08:53 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Whys is the absurd pseudo science being discussed in a SCIENCE forum?
Because it's fun?
LOL