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What is creationism?

Philosophy101
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11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!
Edlvsjd
Posts: 1,549
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11/23/2016 11:27:49 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

Why do you think this your subjective belief system is any better than any other?
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com...
Philosophy101
Posts: 122
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11/23/2016 11:47:42 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/23/2016 11:27:49 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

Why do you think this your subjective belief system is any better than any other?

I'm not defending any belief, I'm asking you to defend yours.
Edlvsjd
Posts: 1,549
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11/23/2016 11:51:30 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/23/2016 11:47:42 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:27:49 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

Why do you think this your subjective belief system is any better than any other?

I'm not defending any belief, I'm asking you to defend yours.

What you have presented is part of a dichotomy, both are based on subjective information. If you succeed in falsifying one, it is likely that the opposite is true.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com...
Philosophy101
Posts: 122
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11/23/2016 11:53:43 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/23/2016 11:51:30 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:47:42 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:27:49 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

Why do you think this your subjective belief system is any better than any other?

I'm not defending any belief, I'm asking you to defend yours.

What you have presented is part of a dichotomy, both are based on subjective information. If you succeed in falsifying one, it is likely that the opposite is true.

I've done nothing of the sort; I want to learn the positive project of creationism, and find yourself in a long line of creationists who have dodged tbe question.
Edlvsjd
Posts: 1,549
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11/24/2016 12:08:43 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/23/2016 11:53:43 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:51:30 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:47:42 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:27:49 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

Why do you think this your subjective belief system is any better than any other?

I'm not defending any belief, I'm asking you to defend yours.

What you have presented is part of a dichotomy, both are based on subjective information. If you succeed in falsifying one, it is likely that the opposite is true.

I've done nothing of the sort; I want to learn the positive project of creationism, and find yourself in a long line of creationists who have dodged tbe question.

You have, but I digress. Let's start with the obvious, the place we live is flat, and is the only place in existence, agreed?
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com...
Philosophy101
Posts: 122
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11/24/2016 12:11:00 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/24/2016 12:08:43 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:53:43 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:51:30 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:47:42 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:27:49 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

Why do you think this your subjective belief system is any better than any other?

I'm not defending any belief, I'm asking you to defend yours.

What you have presented is part of a dichotomy, both are based on subjective information. If you succeed in falsifying one, it is likely that the opposite is true.

I've done nothing of the sort; I want to learn the positive project of creationism, and find yourself in a long line of creationists who have dodged tbe question.

You have, but I digress. Let's start with the obvious, the place we live is flat, and is the only place in existence, agreed?

I don't agree, but for the sake of argument acquiesce.
Edlvsjd
Posts: 1,549
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11/24/2016 12:16:15 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/24/2016 12:11:00 AM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:08:43 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:53:43 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:51:30 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:47:42 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:27:49 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

Why do you think this your subjective belief system is any better than any other?

I'm not defending any belief, I'm asking you to defend yours.

What you have presented is part of a dichotomy, both are based on subjective information. If you succeed in falsifying one, it is likely that the opposite is true.

I've done nothing of the sort; I want to learn the positive project of creationism, and find yourself in a long line of creationists who have dodged tbe question.

You have, but I digress. Let's start with the obvious, the place we live is flat, and is the only place in existence, agreed?

I don't agree, but for the sake of argument acquiesce.

This would put us at the center of the observable universe, and would indirectly prove the existence of the opposite of a Creator, the deceiver, who is hiding the Creator.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com...
distraff
Posts: 1,004
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11/24/2016 12:27:03 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

I am an evolutionist but I have debates some creationists. Many believe that the earth is thousands of years old but there are many who believe it is billions of years old. There are a few in between who believe it to be something in between.

Almost all creationists are highly religious and are Christians especially evangelical. Creationists tend to be right wing and Republican.

Many creationists believe in a literal 7 day creation, others believe that each day is billions of years or some other long period and he created the animals in stages, others think it is metaphorical. Many but not all believe in the literal Adam and Eve. Most Christian creationists believe in a global flood although some do not.

I have found that most creationists have a suspicion of scientists and see them as generally atheistic or secular and some even believe creationism is being covered up in the scientific community and dissenters are being silenced.

Many creationists also don't believe in the big bang theory as well although some do. Many also don't believe in global warming or other theories that are controversial to the right.

Here are the general arguments of creationists:
1: Evolutionists only assume transitional fossils are transitional and many of them are fake
2: Irreducible complexity in nature could not have evolved.
3: Complexity is proof of design and as a clock is assumed to be designed so is life.
4: Dating Methods are unverified and make assumptions and have been shown to be wrong in tests. There is strong evidence the earth is young.
5: The fossil evidence shows catastrophic flooding and is proof of a global flood.
6: Species are too narrow a category because different species can be so alike so it is better to define them as larger kinds which are genuses or families.
7: There can be some adaptation within kinds but too much variance is fatal so kinds tend to stick to a certain set of features.
8: There is no proof of evolution between kinds and no proof of new information being created and most examples are just destruction of new information.
9: There are no good mutations and most mutations are bad. Claimed good mutations are really destruction of information.
10: Abiogenesis is impossible because the chance of the complexity of a cell appearing from random chemical accidents is very small.
11: There is no good evidence for the big bang.
12: The evidence for evolution assumes evolution is true and the only way to verify it is to actually see evolution of new kinds evolve.
13: There would be more creationist scientists if creationism wasn't persecuted in the scientific community.
Philosophy101
Posts: 122
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11/24/2016 12:28:34 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/24/2016 12:16:15 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:11:00 AM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:08:43 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:53:43 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:51:30 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:47:42 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:27:49 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

Why do you think this your subjective belief system is any better than any other?

I'm not defending any belief, I'm asking you to defend yours.

What you have presented is part of a dichotomy, both are based on subjective information. If you succeed in falsifying one, it is likely that the opposite is true.

I've done nothing of the sort; I want to learn the positive project of creationism, and find yourself in a long line of creationists who have dodged tbe question.

You have, but I digress. Let's start with the obvious, the place we live is flat, and is the only place in existence, agreed?

I don't agree, but for the sake of argument acquiesce.

This would put us at the center of the observable universe, and would indirectly prove the existence of the opposite of a Creator, the deceiver, who is hiding the Creator.

It seems you are assuming a creator, but let's put that aside and focus on the implications of a deciever. It would seem you believe if something brings us further from a Biblical creator, we are being deceived. Let's examine that. If I am wrong about the existence of a particular plant, let's say either I believe chyleberries exist or roses do not, I am in the posssesion of a deciever. Being in possession of the decieved would take me away from the creator. Thus to get at the heart of the matter I would like to not be decieved, how then, according to creationism would I not be decieved. We have the establishment of a flat earth and all the testable predictions, what else?
Philosophy101
Posts: 122
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11/24/2016 12:38:27 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/24/2016 12:27:03 AM, distraff wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

I am an evolutionist but I have debates some creationists. Many believe that the earth is thousands of years old but there are many who believe it is billions of years old. There are a few in between who believe it to be something in between.

Almost all creationists are highly religious and are Christians especially evangelical. Creationists tend to be right wing and Republican.

Many creationists believe in a literal 7 day creation, others believe that each day is billions of years or some other long period and he created the animals in stages, others think it is metaphorical. Many but not all believe in the literal Adam and Eve. Most Christian creationists believe in a global flood although some do not.

I have found that most creationists have a suspicion of scientists and see them as generally atheistic or secular and some even believe creationism is being covered up in the scientific community and dissenters are being silenced.

Many creationists also don't believe in the big bang theory as well although some do. Many also don't believe in global warming or other theories that are controversial to the right.

Here are the general arguments of creationists:
1: Evolutionists only assume transitional fossils are transitional and many of them are fake
2: Irreducible complexity in nature could not have evolved.
3: Complexity is proof of design and as a clock is assumed to be designed so is life.
4: Dating Methods are unverified and make assumptions and have been shown to be wrong in tests. There is strong evidence the earth is young.
5: The fossil evidence shows catastrophic flooding and is proof of a global flood.
6: Species are too narrow a category because different species can be so alike so it is better to define them as larger kinds which are genuses or families.
7: There can be some adaptation within kinds but too much variance is fatal so kinds tend to stick to a certain set of features.
8: There is no proof of evolution between kinds and no proof of new information being created and most examples are just destruction of new information.
9: There are no good mutations and most mutations are bad. Claimed good mutations are really destruction of information.
10: Abiogenesis is impossible because the chance of the complexity of a cell appearing from random chemical accidents is very small.
11: There is no good evidence for the big bang.
12: The evidence for evolution assumes evolution is true and the only way to verify it is to actually see evolution of new kinds evolve.
13: There would be more creationist scientists if creationism wasn't persecuted in the scientific community.

I have to say this is an excellent account of creationist beliefs, overall it would seem creationists are not scientists in that they do no science. I have been trying a long time to find their positive project, but it would seem there is none. What it appears to be is a threatened belief system feigning semblance of validity while leeching onto the pores of real science. I think I'm finally converted to near certainty that creationism simply has no validity as a science. Yet this is not to say Christianity as a religion is a poor thing, just that it should embrace science and call attention to serious problems in science and not cling clumsily to evidence in a realm they apparently know nothing about.
Edlvsjd
Posts: 1,549
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11/24/2016 12:48:02 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/24/2016 12:28:34 AM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:16:15 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:11:00 AM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:08:43 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:53:43 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:51:30 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:47:42 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:27:49 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

Why do you think this your subjective belief system is any better than any other?

I'm not defending any belief, I'm asking you to defend yours.

What you have presented is part of a dichotomy, both are based on subjective information. If you succeed in falsifying one, it is likely that the opposite is true.

I've done nothing of the sort; I want to learn the positive project of creationism, and find yourself in a long line of creationists who have dodged tbe question.

You have, but I digress. Let's start with the obvious, the place we live is flat, and is the only place in existence, agreed?

I don't agree, but for the sake of argument acquiesce.

This would put us at the center of the observable universe, and would indirectly prove the existence of the opposite of a Creator, the deceiver, who is hiding the Creator.

It seems you are assuming a creator,:

Are you not assuming there is not?

but let's put that aside and focus on the implications of a deciever. It would seem you believe if something brings us further from a Biblical creator, we are being deceived.

Just the opposite, there is objective evidence that we are being decieved, which was predicted, so logically one can infer that the opposite of what those same deceivers say is also false. For example, this obvious puppetry:
https://www.cnet.com...

Let's examine that. If I am wrong about the existence of a particular plant, let's say either I believe chyleberries exist or roses do not, I am in the posssesion of a deciever. Being in possession of the decieved would take me away from the creator. Thus to get at the heart of the matter I would like to not be decieved, how then, according to creationism would I not be decieved.

By researching what that deceiver is trying to hide.

We have the establishment of a flat earth and all the testable predictions, what else?

?^ There is a dome that covers the earth made of a liquid, possibly a heaven beyond, agreed?
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com...
Philosophy101
Posts: 122
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11/24/2016 1:01:45 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/24/2016 12:48:02 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:28:34 AM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:16:15 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:11:00 AM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:08:43 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:53:43 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:51:30 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:47:42 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:27:49 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

Why do you think this your subjective belief system is any better than any other?

I'm not defending any belief, I'm asking you to defend yours.

What you have presented is part of a dichotomy, both are based on subjective information. If you succeed in falsifying one, it is likely that the opposite is true.

I've done nothing of the sort; I want to learn the positive project of creationism, and find yourself in a long line of creationists who have dodged tbe question.

You have, but I digress. Let's start with the obvious, the place we live is flat, and is the only place in existence, agreed?

I don't agree, but for the sake of argument acquiesce.

This would put us at the center of the observable universe, and would indirectly prove the existence of the opposite of a Creator, the deceiver, who is hiding the Creator.

It seems you are assuming a creator,:

Are you not assuming there is not?

I do not believe I am in the position to discern this question, it rather would seem the positive project of the creationist who has developed this hypothesis.

but let's put that aside and focus on the implications of a deciever. It would seem you believe if something brings us further from a Biblical creator, we are being deceived.

Just the opposite, there is objective evidence that we are being decieved, which was predicted, so logically one can infer that the opposite of what those same deceivers say is also false. For example, this obvious puppetry:
https://www.cnet.com...

I don't see the obvious puppetry, but enjoy his quip that "Did God create the universe first or hell to place people who ask these questions?" I would love to see direct evidence of our deception.

Let's examine that. If I am wrong about the existence of a particular plant, let's say either I believe chyleberries exist or roses do not, I am in the posssesion of a deciever. Being in possession of the decieved would take me away from the creator. Thus to get at the heart of the matter I would like to not be decieved, how then, according to creationism would I not be decieved.

By researching what that deceiver is trying to hide.

That would be one way, if not the a particularly scientific one: so according to Craetionism, what is the decieved trying to hide.

We have the establishment of a flat earth and all the testable predictions, what else?

?^ There is a dome that covers the earth made of a liquid, possibly a heaven beyond, agreed?

Again I will acquiesce, but do not find it particularly promising.
Edlvsjd
Posts: 1,549
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11/24/2016 3:29:34 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/24/2016 1:01:45 AM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:48:02 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:28:34 AM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:16:15 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:11:00 AM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:08:43 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:53:43 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:51:30 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:47:42 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:27:49 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

Why do you think this your subjective belief system is any better than any other?

I'm not defending any belief, I'm asking you to defend yours.

What you have presented is part of a dichotomy, both are based on subjective information. If you succeed in falsifying one, it is likely that the opposite is true.

I've done nothing of the sort; I want to learn the positive project of creationism, and find yourself in a long line of creationists who have dodged tbe question.

You have, but I digress. Let's start with the obvious, the place we live is flat, and is the only place in existence, agreed?

I don't agree, but for the sake of argument acquiesce.

This would put us at the center of the observable universe, and would indirectly prove the existence of the opposite of a Creator, the deceiver, who is hiding the Creator.

It seems you are assuming a creator,:

Are you not assuming there is not?

I do not believe I am in the position to discern this question, it rather would seem the positive project of the creationist who has developed this hypothesis.

So you are agnostic?

but let's put that aside and focus on the implications of a deciever. It would seem you believe if something brings us further from a Biblical creator, we are being deceived.

Just the opposite, there is objective evidence that we are being decieved, which was predicted, so logically one can infer that the opposite of what those same deceivers say is also false. For example, this obvious puppetry:
https://www.cnet.com...

I don't see the obvious puppetry,

What is the average life span for someone with als? Puppet. You really think he speaks through a computer with a single cheek muscle?

but enjoy his quip that "Did God create the universe first or hell to place people who ask these questions?" I would love to see direct evidence of our deception.

Meat puppets disguised as one of the smartest people alive telling us there is no God exhibit a


Let's examine that. If I am wrong about the existence of a particular plant, let's say either I believe chyleberries exist or roses do not, I am in the posssesion of a deciever. Being in possession of the decieved would take me away from the creator. Thus to get at the heart of the matter I would like to not be decieved, how then, according to creationism would I not be decieved.

By researching what that deceiver is trying to hide.

That would be one way, if not the a particularly scientific one: so according to Craetionism, what is the decieved trying to hide.

This is not according to creationism. But there's the firmament, among other things.

We have the establishment of a flat earth and all the testable predictions, what else?

?^ There is a dome that covers the earth made of a liquid, possibly a heaven beyond, agreed?

Again I will acquiesce, but do not find it particularly promising.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com...
Philosophy101
Posts: 122
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11/24/2016 3:45:36 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/24/2016 3:29:34 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/24/2016 1:01:45 AM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:48:02 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:28:34 AM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:16:15 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:11:00 AM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:08:43 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:53:43 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:51:30 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:47:42 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/23/2016 11:27:49 PM, Edlvsjd wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

Why do you think this your subjective belief system is any better than any other?

I'm not defending any belief, I'm asking you to defend yours.

What you have presented is part of a dichotomy, both are based on subjective information. If you succeed in falsifying one, it is likely that the opposite is true.

I've done nothing of the sort; I want to learn the positive project of creationism, and find yourself in a long line of creationists who have dodged tbe question.

You have, but I digress. Let's start with the obvious, the place we live is flat, and is the only place in existence, agreed?

I don't agree, but for the sake of argument acquiesce.

This would put us at the center of the observable universe, and would indirectly prove the existence of the opposite of a Creator, the deceiver, who is hiding the Creator.

It seems you are assuming a creator,:

Are you not assuming there is not?

I do not believe I am in the position to discern this question, it rather would seem the positive project of the creationist who has developed this hypothesis.

So you are agnostic?

I am actually not agnostic, I find it hard to believe in the God of the Bible for reasons other than science; so getting into them would hinder scientific debate. In fact, I am not atheistic either because my belief system includes religious dogma (to use the term loosely) including Karma and emptiness.

but let's put that aside and focus on the implications of a deciever. It would seem you believe if something brings us further from a Biblical creator, we are being deceived.

Just the opposite, there is objective evidence that we are being decieved, which was predicted, so logically one can infer that the opposite of what those same deceivers say is also false. For example, this obvious puppetry:
https://www.cnet.com...

I don't see the obvious puppetry,

What is the average life span for someone with als? Puppet. You really think he speaks through a computer with a single cheek muscle?

I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm sure you can look it up. Are you seriously suggesting Stephen Hawkings is not disabled! That is quite a claim and far off the confines of proving positive projects in creationism.

but enjoy his quip that "Did God create the universe first or hell to place people who ask these questions?" I would love to see direct evidence of our deception.

Meat puppets disguised as one of the smartest people alive telling us there is no God exhibit a

I'm glad you agree Hawkins is one of the smartest people around, but how does that prove creationism; it is not scientific evidence and actually points to a very different conclusion than the one you are engendering.



Let's examine that. If I am wrong about the existence of a particular plant, let's say either I believe chyleberries exist or roses do not, I am in the posssesion of a deciever. Being in possession of the decieved would take me away from the creator. Thus to get at the heart of the matter I would like to not be decieved, how then, according to creationism would I not be decieved.

By researching what that deceiver is trying to hide.

That would be one way, if not the a particularly scientific one: so according to Craetionism, what is the decieved trying to hide.

This is not according to creationism. But there's the firmament, among other things.

You will have to explain to me how the firmament is evidence on a potential deciever's motives as you imply it should; or some other relevance to the topic of creationism.

So there is the firmament and flat earth; what testable predictions are made by these ideas about the universe.

We have the establishment of a flat earth and all the testable predictions, what else?

?^ There is a dome that covers the earth made of a liquid, possibly a heaven beyond, agreed?

Again I will acquiesce, but do not find it particularly promising.
distraff
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11/24/2016 5:42:41 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/24/2016 12:38:27 AM, Philosophy101 wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:27:03 AM, distraff wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

I am an evolutionist but I have debates some creationists. Many believe that the earth is thousands of years old but there are many who believe it is billions of years old. There are a few in between who believe it to be something in between.

Almost all creationists are highly religious and are Christians especially evangelical. Creationists tend to be right wing and Republican.

Many creationists believe in a literal 7 day creation, others believe that each day is billions of years or some other long period and he created the animals in stages, others think it is metaphorical. Many but not all believe in the literal Adam and Eve. Most Christian creationists believe in a global flood although some do not.

I have found that most creationists have a suspicion of scientists and see them as generally atheistic or secular and some even believe creationism is being covered up in the scientific community and dissenters are being silenced.

Many creationists also don't believe in the big bang theory as well although some do. Many also don't believe in global warming or other theories that are controversial to the right.

Here are the general arguments of creationists:
1: Evolutionists only assume transitional fossils are transitional and many of them are fake
2: Irreducible complexity in nature could not have evolved.
3: Complexity is proof of design and as a clock is assumed to be designed so is life.
4: Dating Methods are unverified and make assumptions and have been shown to be wrong in tests. There is strong evidence the earth is young.
5: The fossil evidence shows catastrophic flooding and is proof of a global flood.
6: Species are too narrow a category because different species can be so alike so it is better to define them as larger kinds which are genuses or families.
7: There can be some adaptation within kinds but too much variance is fatal so kinds tend to stick to a certain set of features.
8: There is no proof of evolution between kinds and no proof of new information being created and most examples are just destruction of new information.
9: There are no good mutations and most mutations are bad. Claimed good mutations are really destruction of information.
10: Abiogenesis is impossible because the chance of the complexity of a cell appearing from random chemical accidents is very small.
11: There is no good evidence for the big bang.
12: The evidence for evolution assumes evolution is true and the only way to verify it is to actually see evolution of new kinds evolve.
13: There would be more creationist scientists if creationism wasn't persecuted in the scientific community.

I have to say this is an excellent account of creationist beliefs, overall it would seem creationists are not scientists in that they do no science. I have been trying a long time to find their positive project, but it would seem there is none. What it appears to be is a threatened belief system feigning semblance of validity while leeching onto the pores of real science. I think I'm finally converted to near certainty that creationism simply has no validity as a science. Yet this is not to say Christianity as a religion is a poor thing, just that it should embrace science and call attention to serious problems in science and not cling clumsily to evidence in a realm they apparently know nothing about.

Totally agree. By the way it is a total waste to debate with Edlvsjd. He literally believes the earth is flat and the dinosaur bones are fake.
Stymie13
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11/28/2016 4:59:12 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
Yeah you should put it in religion or philosophy as creation has nada to do with science.
Annnaxim
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11/29/2016 9:54:43 AM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 11/24/2016 12:08:43 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
Let's start with the obvious, the place we live is flat, and is the only place in existence, agreed?
No. I disagree with your conjecture that the earth is flat.
This is retro-development. Even the Phoenicians knew 3000 years ago that the earth is round.
You are the victim of an Illusion. If large enough, every spherical surface appears flat.
v3nesl
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11/29/2016 1:44:12 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

You would like to learn what creationists believe, but you already do not feel "it is a valid theory". Way to have an open mind there, dude.
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Edlvsjd
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11/29/2016 2:18:51 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 11/29/2016 9:54:43 AM, Annnaxim wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:08:43 AM, Edlvsjd wrote:
Let's start with the obvious, the place we live is flat, and is the only place in existence, agreed?
No. I disagree with your conjecture that the earth is flat.
This is retro-development. Even the Phoenicians knew 3000 years ago that the earth is round.
You are the victim of an Illusion. If large enough, every spherical surface appears flat.

From any altitude?
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com...
v3nesl
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11/29/2016 3:27:22 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 11/24/2016 12:27:03 AM, distraff wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

I am an evolutionist but I have debates some creationists. Many believe that the earth is thousands of years old but there are many who believe it is billions of years old. There are a few in between who believe it to be something in between.


Going out on a limb here, but probably the one commonality among creationists is belief in a creator. From a scientific viewpoint, creationism has two fundamentals:

1) We must assume human intuition has some validity. Otherwise we can't do science of any sort.

2) The human intuition of design has validity. Humans are themselves creative, and have excellent ability to differentiate design from noise.

All humans intuit that life is designed. Some people get talked out of trusting this intuition at some point in life. A knowledge of the technology of life (i.e. learning how it works) can restore that intuition.
This space for rent.
DanneJeRusse
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11/29/2016 3:44:05 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 11/29/2016 3:27:22 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:27:03 AM, distraff wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

I am an evolutionist but I have debates some creationists. Many believe that the earth is thousands of years old but there are many who believe it is billions of years old. There are a few in between who believe it to be something in between.


Going out on a limb here, but probably the one commonality among creationists is belief in a creator. From a scientific viewpoint, creationism has two fundamentals:

From a scientific viewpoint, creationism is a non-sequitur.

1) We must assume human intuition has some validity. Otherwise we can't do science of any sort.

Intuition is often wrong as it is based on emotion and guesswork.

2) The human intuition of design has validity. Humans are themselves creative, and have excellent ability to differentiate design from noise.

And, the design noise is coming from creationists who cannot differentiate fact from fantasy.

All humans intuit that life is designed.

Wrong.

Some people get talked out of trusting this intuition at some point in life. A knowledge of the technology of life (i.e. learning how it works) can restore that intuition.

It is the hallmark of an idiot who trusts intuition over facts and evidence.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
David_Debates
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11/29/2016 3:44:22 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

Creationism is basically the belief that we are designed by a creator.

I find there is no other alternative. We are clearly designed, and design without a designer is impossible, in the same way that you can't have a painting without a painter, a statue without a sculptor. There are other arguments if you'd like them.
DanneJeRusse
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11/29/2016 3:59:02 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 11/29/2016 3:44:22 PM, David_Debates wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

Creationism is basically the belief that we are designed by a creator.

I find there is no other alternative.

Wow, a closed mind in favor of a belief that has never been shown to be valid.

We are clearly designed,

We are clearly not designed, according to facts and evidence.

and design without a designer is impossible, in the same way that you can't have a painting without a painter, a statue without a sculptor.

Humans are not paintings or sculptors.

There are other arguments if you'd like them.

None that are valid.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
v3nesl
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11/29/2016 4:00:51 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 11/29/2016 3:44:22 PM, David_Debates wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

Creationism is basically the belief that we are designed by a creator.

I find there is no other alternative. We are clearly designed, and design without a designer is impossible, in the same way that you can't have a painting without a painter, a statue without a sculptor. There are other arguments if you'd like them.

Yeah, well said. It's pretty simple, actually. How, when, where - those kind of questions can get contentious, but the basic premise that life was done on purpose - I really can't grant that this is debate able by an intelligent and open minded person.

So many paths converge on the logical necessity of design (you don't even have to go to 'a' creator a priori), and ironically, one of those paths is the very science that the scientism cult has such faith in: If the brain is not designed, there is no logical reason for it to have any reliable correlation to scientific truth. If you really follow the logic and the history, one is reminded that the golden age of science is actually a religious phenomenon (I didn't say a church phenomenon, but a religious movement).
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v3nesl
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11/29/2016 4:03:50 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 11/29/2016 3:59:02 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
...

There are other arguments if you'd like them.

None that are valid.

And there you go, the echo of the OP: You can dismiss his arguments without even knowing what they are. So clearly your opinion is a spiritual choice, and not a rational conclusion.
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v3nesl
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11/29/2016 4:10:53 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 11/29/2016 3:44:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
...

It is the hallmark of an idiot who trusts intuition over facts and evidence.

And just for giggles, I will ask the rhetorical question that will fly right over your head: What part of your psyche is able to determine that your intuitions are faulty? If you "just know" to trust facts and evidence, wouldn't that be an intuition?

Guys like you live in an intellectual basement, where you only allow yourself to consider a tiny fraction of the evidence available to you. You have measured all the dimensions of your basement. You have counted all the blocks and all the beams and are experts in basement construction. But the world outside your basement? You deny it exists. Specifically, you resolutely refuse to consider the miracles of your own humanity. Which I find pretty sad, you know? Everyone who rejects God ends up rejecting his own self. And vice versa - "He who loses his life for my sake will find it"
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DanneJeRusse
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11/29/2016 4:36:41 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 11/29/2016 4:03:50 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 11/29/2016 3:59:02 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
...

There are other arguments if you'd like them.

None that are valid.

And there you go, the echo of the OP: You can dismiss his arguments without even knowing what they are. So clearly your opinion is a spiritual choice, and not a rational conclusion.

LOL. The "arguments" (faith based assertions) from creationists are well known as they have been bandied around everywhere by the fools who propagate them. Do you actually believe he has anything new to say?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
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11/29/2016 4:41:50 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 11/29/2016 4:10:53 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 11/29/2016 3:44:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
...

It is the hallmark of an idiot who trusts intuition over facts and evidence.

And just for giggles, I will ask the rhetorical question that will fly right over your head: What part of your psyche is able to determine that your intuitions are faulty? If you "just know" to trust facts and evidence, wouldn't that be an intuition?

Guys like you live in an intellectual basement, where you only allow yourself to consider a tiny fraction of the evidence available to you. You have measured all the dimensions of your basement. You have counted all the blocks and all the beams and are experts in basement construction. But the world outside your basement? You deny it exists. Specifically, you resolutely refuse to consider the miracles of your own humanity. Which I find pretty sad, you know? Everyone who rejects God ends up rejecting his own self. And vice versa - "He who loses his life for my sake will find it"

Ah yes, the religious troll is compelled to vomit his irrational beliefs in the Science forum yet again, complaining that others can't see what his mental disorder is causing him to fantasize.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
distraff
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11/29/2016 7:07:12 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 11/29/2016 3:27:22 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 11/24/2016 12:27:03 AM, distraff wrote:
At 11/23/2016 10:18:28 PM, Philosophy101 wrote:
This thread is designed to ask creationists to explain their beliefs and what exactly is entailed by them. It is not a form for evolution as that is a seperate theory and makes its own predictions. The reason I am asking this question is because I would like to learn what creationists believe. In fact this thread is calling out creationists because I do not feel it is a valid theory. This is also a thread to ask creationists any questions you might have on the subject. Creationists defend your beliefs!

I am an evolutionist but I have debates some creationists. Many believe that the earth is thousands of years old but there are many who believe it is billions of years old. There are a few in between who believe it to be something in between.


Going out on a limb here, but probably the one commonality among creationists is belief in a creator. From a scientific viewpoint, creationism has two fundamentals:

1) We must assume human intuition has some validity. Otherwise we can't do science of any sort.

2) The human intuition of design has validity. Humans are themselves creative, and have excellent ability to differentiate design from noise.

All humans intuit that life is designed. Some people get talked out of trusting this intuition at some point in life. A knowledge of the technology of life (i.e. learning how it works) can restore that intuition.

I have not heard most creationists use the intuition argument, its mostly just you. Most creationist use arguments like irreducible complexity or mutations mostly being bad as evidence that their intuition about design, or use a watchmaker analogy to try to show that it is right.

They don't just assume that intuition has this magical power to differentiate design from non-design. There has to be reasons and evidence that their intuition is detecting correctly.