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Sex Equality

I-am-a-panda
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3/2/2011 12:40:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Although I am not one for the government intervening in business, or society in general, to correct inequality through force, I feel this was a rather bittersweet moment. The EU court has banned insurance companies from discriminating against male drivers, essentially meaning men and women in the EU pay the exact insurance premiums.

http://www.businessweek.com...

For all that feminists who support government initiatives to close the gender gap, this is definitely something they should have no problem getting behind. Amirite? Problem, statist feminists?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
I-am-a-panda
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3/2/2011 12:42:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 12:40:14 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
For all those feminists who support government initiatives to close the gender gap, this is definitely something they should have no problem getting behind. Amirite? Problem, statist feminists?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/2/2011 12:43:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I moderately support some degree of gender in-equality though. Like this. Men are statisitically more dangerous drivers (due to different hormone compositions).

And there are other things that I think take precedence over this, like employer healthcare cannot discriminate based on age or health.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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3/2/2011 12:44:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Insurance companies also discriminate for age. Younger drivers pay much more than older drivers - because they are safer drivers.
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
I-am-a-panda
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3/2/2011 12:45:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 12:43:28 PM, OreEle wrote:
I moderately support some degree of gender in-equality though. Like this. Men are statisitically more dangerous drivers (due to different hormone compositions).

And statistically women are more likely to take maternal leave and cost their employer more. Does this justify them being paid less?


And there are other things that I think take precedence over this, like employer healthcare cannot discriminate based on age or health.

Define "discriminate"
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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3/2/2011 12:49:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yes, I wondered how you would react to that news, Panda!

Bit of a dilemma for you: stick to your principles and pay more; or pay less and 'make an exception in his case'!
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I-am-a-panda
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3/2/2011 12:49:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 12:44:53 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
Insurance companies also discriminate for age. Younger drivers pay much more than older drivers - because they are safer drivers.

Older female drivers should clearly be unduly discriminated against by government forces then.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/2/2011 12:50:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 12:43:28 PM, OreEle wrote:
I moderately support some degree of gender in-equality though. Like this. Men are statisitically more dangerous drivers (due to different hormone compositions).


Women are more likely to be less reliable and less productive workers.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
I-am-a-panda
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3/2/2011 1:07:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 12:49:04 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Yes, I wondered how you would react to that news, Panda!

Bit of a dilemma for you: stick to your principles and pay more; or pay less and 'make an exception in his case'!

Chivalry is dead, pay the lower rate.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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3/2/2011 1:12:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 12:43:28 PM, OreEle wrote:
I moderately support some degree of gender in-equality though. Like this. Men are statisitically more dangerous drivers (due to different hormone compositions).

that's what it's due to...? just different hormone composition...

And there are other things that I think take precedence over this, like employer healthcare cannot discriminate based on age or health.
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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3/2/2011 1:17:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 12:44:53 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
Insurance companies also discriminate for age. Younger drivers pay much more than older drivers - because they are safer drivers.

well older drivers have more experience.. they're obviously gonna be better drivers.. that's kinda a fair discrimination.. a girl isn't obviously gonna be a better/safer driver than a boy.. i don't really know what to make of this though..

besides cheaper insurance come 21st of december 2012!

wait a minute..

...they should move it forward a bit just in case the world actually does end?
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Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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3/2/2011 1:30:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
But I agree, Panda - there should be no discrimination like that with insurance. They should charge people on a case by case basis. There is a standard charge for the insurance, and depending on how you drive you either get charged more or less. That makes the most sense, doesn't it?

Just like you can't pay a woman less because she MIGHT get pregnant, you shouldn't charge someone more on insurance because they MIGHT drive worse. Your sex doesn't seal the deal on how you will drive.
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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3/2/2011 1:31:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 12:40:14 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Although I am not one for the government intervening in business, or society in general, to correct inequality through force, I feel this was a rather bittersweet moment. The EU court has banned insurance companies from discriminating against male drivers, essentially meaning men and women in the EU pay the exact insurance premiums.

http://www.businessweek.com...

For all that feminists who support government initiatives to close the gender gap, this is definitely something they should have no problem getting behind. Amirite? Problem, statist feminists?

I'm not allowed to call myself a feminist anymore, but I am glad cause that pay gap between male and female drivers really did make me angry.
Base it on driving history, not gender.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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3/2/2011 1:34:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 1:31:14 PM, lovelife wrote:
Base it on driving history, not gender.

Exactly
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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3/2/2011 1:35:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 1:30:14 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
But I agree, Panda - there should be no discrimination like that with insurance. They should charge people on a case by case basis. There is a standard charge for the insurance, and depending on how you drive you either get charged more or less. That makes the most sense, doesn't it?

Just like you can't pay a woman less because she MIGHT get pregnant, you shouldn't charge someone more on insurance because they MIGHT drive worse. Your sex doesn't seal the deal on how you will drive.

Exactly.

Even if we were to stereotype, men have their racing, and going fast and showing off, while women have their texting, and other forms of socializing.
Both are risky for different reasons, and I don't find it fair to charge someone more for their gender.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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3/2/2011 1:35:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 12:50:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Women are more likely to be less reliable and less productive workers.

Source?
President of DDO
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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3/2/2011 1:38:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 1:35:38 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 3/2/2011 12:50:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Women are more likely to be less reliable and less productive workers.

Source?

He got that out of his a$$
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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3/2/2011 1:40:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 1:38:45 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
At 3/2/2011 1:35:38 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 3/2/2011 12:50:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Women are more likely to be less reliable and less productive workers.

Source?

He got that out of his a$$

Surprised?
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,337
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3/2/2011 1:42:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So businesses cannot target market segments by gender on the basis that it may offend someone even though it costs that business profits by not fitting a market plan to that segment? Not only does this hurt the business but it also hurts that segment of the market that has unique needs.
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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3/2/2011 1:45:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 1:42:40 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
So businesses cannot target market segments by gender on the basis that it may offend someone even though it costs that business profits by not fitting a market plan to that segment? Not only does this hurt the business but it also hurts that segment of the market that has unique needs.

Well, you are putting profit over people here - which some of us don't believe in.
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,337
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3/2/2011 1:46:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 1:42:40 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
So businesses cannot target market segments by gender on the basis that it may offend someone even though it costs that business profits by not fitting a market plan to that segment? Not only does this hurt the business but it also hurts that segment of the market that has unique needs.
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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3/2/2011 1:47:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 1:46:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/2/2011 1:42:40 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
So businesses cannot target market segments by gender on the basis that it may offend someone even though it costs that business profits by not fitting a market plan to that segment? Not only does this hurt the business but it also hurts that segment of the market that has unique needs.


Please explain what you specifically mean.
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/2/2011 1:48:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 1:40:25 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 3/2/2011 1:38:45 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
At 3/2/2011 1:35:38 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 3/2/2011 12:50:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Women are more likely to be less reliable and less productive workers.

Source?

He got that out of his a$$

Surprised?

Sh1t I have three of the feminazis after me! Hey no just kidding....

It's anecdotal. In the most of the places I have worked in most of the women have had fewer responsibilities, lower production, less of a work ethic etc etc than their equally paid male colleagues. It is just assumed that the men will bail them out and no one even thinks to question it, gender expectations being so hard wired.

I imagine the better the job the less this is noticable, I've worked in some crap places.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/2/2011 1:50:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 12:45:11 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 3/2/2011 12:43:28 PM, OreEle wrote:
I moderately support some degree of gender in-equality though. Like this. Men are statisitically more dangerous drivers (due to different hormone compositions).

And statistically women are more likely to take maternal leave and cost their employer more. Does this justify them being paid less?

No, I support allowing fathers to take "maternal" leave so that they can be with their new family, since the first weeks are so darn vital to the bonding experience.

Example, a health insurance company can charge an old person more for the same coverage as a young person, since statisitically, older people need to use hospitals more often. This makes sence.

However, it is illegal for company health insurance to charge their employees different amounts based on age. It has to be, by law, 1 flat rate for everyone. That means that I receive no benefit from a company health insurance (the one my company offers is about the same price as the market), while older people at my work are getting nearly $1,000 a month of benefit from the company health insurance.

If it is legal for the health insurance, it should be legal for companeis (or vise versa for illegality).

Personally, I'd like to have a company just say, "go pick your own insurance policy and we'll cover 75%" or something like that.



And there are other things that I think take precedence over this, like employer healthcare cannot discriminate based on age or health.

Define "discriminate"

To treat differently based on gender, age, race, or a veriety of things. I'll also re-state, that I only support a few things, not all.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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3/2/2011 1:54:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 1:48:35 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/2/2011 1:40:25 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 3/2/2011 1:38:45 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
At 3/2/2011 1:35:38 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 3/2/2011 12:50:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Women are more likely to be less reliable and less productive workers.

Source?

He got that out of his a$$

Surprised?

Sh1t I have three of the feminazis after me! Hey no just kidding....

It's anecdotal. In the most of the places I have worked in most of the women have had fewer responsibilities, lower production, less of a work ethic etc etc than their equally paid male colleagues. It is just assumed that the men will bail them out and no one even thinks to question it, gender expectations being so hard wired.

I imagine the better the job the less this is noticable, I've worked in some crap places.

At my current work place, my boss has fired so many men for being too slow, not working hard enough, and not having the customer relation skills that the other workers have. My boss is also a tea partier, Ayn Rand loving Capitalist - so his profits are important to him.

I don't think you can make that statement without true statistics to back yourself up, or else I would be able to say, "Men are slower, don't work as hard, and don't have good people skills."
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,337
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3/2/2011 2:00:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Let's say I run a store, and I notice a large percent of the women customers want 2 salesmen to help them and a large percent of the men do not want any help. If I discriminate and offer a valuable service to women and not to men in the form of salesmen resources, is this not gender biasing? However, this is not just for profit, the female customer gets a benefit as well. Women would lose this need fulfillment if an angry male came in and yelled discrimination and that all salesmen must be required by law to service both sexes equally, but no party really benefits from this in the majority of the cases!
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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3/2/2011 2:01:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 1:54:26 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
At 3/2/2011 1:48:35 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/2/2011 1:40:25 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 3/2/2011 1:38:45 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
At 3/2/2011 1:35:38 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 3/2/2011 12:50:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Women are more likely to be less reliable and less productive workers.

Source?

He got that out of his a$$

Surprised?

Sh1t I have three of the feminazis after me! Hey no just kidding....

It's anecdotal. In the most of the places I have worked in most of the women have had fewer responsibilities, lower production, less of a work ethic etc etc than their equally paid male colleagues. It is just assumed that the men will bail them out and no one even thinks to question it, gender expectations being so hard wired.

I imagine the better the job the less this is noticable, I've worked in some crap places.

At my current work place, my boss has fired so many men for being too slow, not working hard enough, and not having the customer relation skills that the other workers have. My boss is also a tea partier, Ayn Rand loving Capitalist - so his profits are important to him.

I don't think you can make that statement without true statistics to back yourself up, or else I would be able to say, "Men are slower, don't work as hard, and don't have good people skills."

But that's quite true: generally speaking, men are slower, don't work as hard, and don't have (such) good people skills; but on the other hand, men do tend to work longer hours, so it more or less evens itself out in the end.
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PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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3/2/2011 2:06:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 12:40:14 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Although I am not one for the government intervening in business, or society in general, to correct inequality through force, I feel this was a rather bittersweet moment. The EU court has banned insurance companies from discriminating against male drivers, essentially meaning men and women in the EU pay the exact insurance premiums.:

Or you could choose a company that decides to do this all on its own because it would appeal to more demographics -- no coercion necessary.

It's like the difference between Affirmative Action and an Equal Opportunity Employer. AA is a government mandate forcing you to hire less qualified people to satiate the government gods. An Equal Opportunity employer gives you their word that they don't discriminate.

Should there be evidence that they don't practice what they preach, the negative publicity and loss in revenue will prompt them to stay honest and forthcoming or suffer those consequences.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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3/2/2011 2:11:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 12:45:11 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 3/2/2011 12:43:28 PM, OreEle wrote:
I moderately support some degree of gender in-equality though. Like this. Men are statisitically more dangerous drivers (due to different hormone compositions).

And statistically women are more likely to take maternal leave and cost their employer more. Does this justify them being paid less?


And there are other things that I think take precedence over this, like employer healthcare cannot discriminate based on age or health.

Define "discriminate":

In her instance, you pay higher premiums for coverage under the assumption that young people are dumb and reckless. Since the statistics seem to support that, they feel that giving a young person coverage is more of a risk.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)