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Racism in so-called 'progressive' cities.

artwomyn
Posts: 77
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3/19/2011 8:16:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I've lived in various cities, over the years. As an African American, I've experienced quite a bit of racism, in so-called 'progressive' cities. I'm talking about places such as Portland, OR, San Francisco, CA, Northampton, MA, and others. These places are certainly progressive, when it comes to politics, gay and lesbian issues, and environmental issues.

But when it comes to racism, especially with regards to economics, these so-called 'progressive' cities, come up short. From my own experiences, it seems to me that many 'progressive' cities, want to keep blacks and browns out. They want to deny blacks and browns decent housing, jobs, and overall respect. The only minority group that I've seen, that are welcome in 'progressive' cities, are Asians.

I'd like to hear from others, particularly African American, and Hispanics, about this issue. Have any of you ever lived in any so-called 'progressive' city, and have experienced lots of racism, either covert or blatant?
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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3/19/2011 8:42:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think it's been mentioned before that there are only a small handful of black/Hispanic users here (like 3), so there's no reason to direct your question to minorities in particular if you ever want a response lol.

You wrote, "From my own experiences, it seems to me that many 'progressive' cities, want to keep blacks and browns out. They want to deny blacks and browns decent housing, jobs, and overall respect." I'm assuming you have some sort of evidence that minorities are specifically being kept out? I would imagine so considering these are pretty big accusations with legal ramifications.

I'm guessing that the cost of living in those cities is increasing, and minorities, who on balance have lower paying jobs, cannot afford to live in those cities. To be honest you come off as racist by automatically implying otherwise.
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artwomyn
Posts: 77
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3/19/2011 9:15:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 8:42:19 AM, Danielle wrote:
I think it's been mentioned before that there are only a small handful of black/Hispanic users here (like 3), so there's no reason to direct your question to minorities in particular if you ever want a response lol.

You wrote, "From my own experiences, it seems to me that many 'progressive' cities, want to keep blacks and browns out. They want to deny blacks and browns decent housing, jobs, and overall respect." I'm assuming you have some sort of evidence that minorities are specifically being kept out? I would imagine so considering these are pretty big accusations with legal ramifications.

I'm guessing that the cost of living in those cities is increasing, and minorities, who on balance have lower paying jobs, cannot afford to live in those cities. To be honest you come off as racist by automatically implying otherwise.

DON'T accuse me of racism. Seems like anytime a person of color discusses their experiences with racism, a white person accuses THEM of racism. Well that's a cheap, pathetic trick.

Maybe I shouldn't have posted a thread about racism here, if not many people of color are members. Because I don't want only responses from whites, most of whom are clueless about what people of color go through, with regards to racism!
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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3/19/2011 9:27:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I noticed that you did not address one of my points.

Well, I'm white but I am fully aware of the trials and tribulations other races experience. I'm also a woman. I'm also gay. I know what it's like to be treated as an inferior second class citizen, and it's also a pet peeve of mine when people pretend that racism doesn't exist or when any conversation about race or racial experiences turns into a racism topic. I'm probably among the most racially conscious people here, so please don't presume to know where I'm going with this.

Once again, I'm waiting for one shred of evidence that minorities are specifically being excluded from certain jobs or housing. Until then all we have is your accusation which proves nothing. I could easily sit here and say you hate white people. Without evidence a baseless assertion is pretty useless. Did you at least have some reasoning or a theory behind your claim, if not actual proof?
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innomen
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3/19/2011 9:31:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I can only speak to North Hampton MA, not the others, and i am surprised that you would include this town. However, i think you might confuse snobbery with racism. North Hampton, and towns like them in MA are incredibly elitist, but bend over backward to be PC. Is North Hampton the town where they decided to not have the American flag raised, but rather the UN flag? It's one of those towns out there.

I really think it has more to do with economic and social status than it does with the color of their skin. I am also really doubtful that someone in North Hampton was denied a place to live because of their skin color. A confederate flag on the back of one's pick up truck - yes, skin color no. If Maya Angelou was moving in they would roll out the red carpet, but if Sara Palin moved in they would greet her with pitch forks.
artwomyn
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3/19/2011 10:00:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 9:27:08 AM, Danielle wrote:
I noticed that you did not address one of my points.

Well, I'm white but I am fully aware of the trials and tribulations other races experience. I'm also a woman. I'm also gay. I know what it's like to be treated as an inferior second class citizen, and it's also a pet peeve of mine when people pretend that racism doesn't exist or when any conversation about race or racial experiences turns into a racism topic. I'm probably among the most racially conscious people here, so please don't presume to know where I'm going with this.

Once again, I'm waiting for one shred of evidence that minorities are specifically being excluded from certain jobs or housing. Until then all we have is your accusation which proves nothing. I could easily sit here and say you hate white people. Without evidence a baseless assertion is pretty useless. Did you at least have some reasoning or a theory behind your claim, if not actual proof?

I beg to differ, with regards to you knowing what it's like to be black or Hispanic. I'm also a lesbian, and I can tell you that even white lesbians have excluded black and Hispanics, from their social circles. I've experienced this in Portland, OR, San Francisco, CA, and now in western MA.

The only blacks and Hispanics that I ever saw in SF's financial district, were homeless people pushing shopping carts. You can go to the business districts of places like Atlanta, Chicago, NYC, you will see plenty of well dressed blacks and Hispanics, that look successful. In those places, you'll find many black and Hispanic middle-class neighborhoods, minority owned businesses, and minorities in successful
careers.

While in SF, Portland, and western MA, you won't find hardly any blacks and Hispanics, in decent neighborhoods, or in middle-class careers, or that own their own businesses. You have to have great credit, to rent an apartment in Northampton, Easthampton, or Amherst. These are also the nicest places here.

Blacks and Hispanics, also tend to have disproportionately bad credit. So here in western MA, we're mainly banished to the crummy areas, such as Chicopee, Holyoke, and Springfield. A black friend of mine, recently got an apartment in Holyoke. She makes a salary in the low 40s, and works for one of the universities in Amherst. But she also had filed bankruptcy, a few years ago. And she said that she knew not to try and get an apartment, in the nicer cities here. But her new Landlord in Holyoke, never even checked her credit. Which is why she got an apartment.

Sounds like you need to expand your horizons, and do some traveling to different parts of the country. You might also want to ask black and Hispanic lesbians and gays, what experiences that they've had with discrimination. THEN you might get a clue, as to what I'm talking about here.
Danielle
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3/19/2011 10:34:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 10:00:36 AM, artwomyn wrote:
I beg to differ, with regards to you knowing what it's like to be black or Hispanic. I'm also a lesbian, and I can tell you that even white lesbians have excluded black and Hispanics, from their social circles. I've experienced this in Portland, OR, San Francisco, CA, and now in western MA.

The only blacks and Hispanics that I ever saw in SF's financial district, were homeless people pushing shopping carts. You can go to the business districts of places like Atlanta, Chicago, NYC, you will see plenty of well dressed blacks and Hispanics, that look successful. In those places, you'll find many black and Hispanic middle-class neighborhoods, minority owned businesses, and minorities in successful
careers.

While in SF, Portland, and western MA, you won't find hardly any blacks and Hispanics, in decent neighborhoods, or in middle-class careers, or that own their own businesses. You have to have great credit, to rent an apartment in Northampton, Easthampton, or Amherst. These are also the nicest places here.

Blacks and Hispanics, also tend to have disproportionately bad credit. So here in western MA, we're mainly banished to the crummy areas, such as Chicopee, Holyoke, and Springfield. A black friend of mine, recently got an apartment in Holyoke. She makes a salary in the low 40s, and works for one of the universities in Amherst. But she also had filed bankruptcy, a few years ago. And she said that she knew not to try and get an apartment, in the nicer cities here. But her new Landlord in Holyoke, never even checked her credit. Which is why she got an apartment.

Sounds like you need to expand your horizons, and do some traveling to different parts of the country. You might also want to ask black and Hispanic lesbians and gays, what experiences that they've had with discrimination. THEN you might get a clue, as to what I'm talking about here.

It's interesting that you begin by being hostile and pointing out that I certainly don't know what it's like to be black or Hispanic. Not once did I ever claim as such. Instead, I pointed out that I know what it's like to be treated as a second class citizen (which you should know women and gays frequently are).

Moreover I'm more than familiar with issues pertaining to racism and the feminist movement, racism and the gay rights movement, etc. Let's just say I've read more than my fair share of Audre Lorde. I'm also not ignorant to my surroundings. I've witnessed the exclusion you're talking about, but I've also experienced inclusion that stands contrary to your experience. There's no reason to accept your experience over mine. However note that I am not denying your experience as reality.

Now onto what you said about credit. What makes you think that you don't need good credit to rent a place in Atlanta, New York or Chicago? Once again I was born and raised in NYC; I moved to the Chicago area 2 years ago and I can PROMISE you that you need good credit everywhere. Furthermore this dismantles your entire argument. If apartment renting is based on CREDIT, then you're admitting that it's based on credit and not on race. That means that a white person with equally bad credit would also be denied, as innomen pointed out (it's a class thing; not necessarily a race thing).

I'm not denying that blacks have disproportionally bad credit, nor am I even denying some underlying causes of that statistic (which is far more than you're going to get from the all white male libertarian crowd that dominates this site), but the lack of minorities has nothing to do with race specifically so I can't take this accusation seriously.

Finally, I found your last paragraph to be condescending and disrespectful. Your presumptions about what I know, think, where I've been and what I've experienced are all been wrong. I find you to be incredibly rude and probably very ignorant.
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lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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3/19/2011 12:01:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Heres a question, why are white people white and black people African Americans, I never understood that one.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/19/2011 12:09:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 12:01:25 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Heres a question, why are white people white and black people African Americans, I never understood that one.

Lets not lower ourselves to her level of identity politics.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,249
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3/19/2011 12:12:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 10:34:16 AM, Danielle wrote:

It's interesting that you begin by being hostile and pointing out that I certainly don't know what it's like to be black or Hispanic. Not once did I ever claim as such. Instead, I pointed out that I know what it's like to be treated as a second class citizen (which you should know women and gays frequently are).

Moreover I'm more than familiar with issues pertaining to racism and the feminist movement, racism and the gay rights movement, etc. Let's just say I've read more than my fair share of Audre Lorde. I'm also not ignorant to my surroundings. I've witnessed the exclusion you're talking about, but I've also experienced inclusion that stands contrary to your experience. There's no reason to accept your experience over mine. However note that I am not denying your experience as reality.

Now onto what you said about credit. What makes you think that you don't need good credit to rent a place in Atlanta, New York or Chicago? Once again I was born and raised in NYC; I moved to the Chicago area 2 years ago and I can PROMISE you that you need good credit everywhere. Furthermore this dismantles your entire argument. If apartment renting is based on CREDIT, then you're admitting that it's based on credit and not on race. That means that a white person with equally bad credit would also be denied, as innomen pointed out (it's a class thing; not necessarily a race thing).

I'm not denying that blacks have disproportionally bad credit, nor am I even denying some underlying causes of that statistic (which is far more than you're going to get from the all white male libertarian crowd that dominates this site), but the lack of minorities has nothing to do with race specifically so I can't take this accusation seriously.

Finally, I found your last paragraph to be condescending and disrespectful. Your presumptions about what I know, think, where I've been and what I've experienced are all been wrong. I find you to be incredibly rude and probably very ignorant.

I have a lot of respect for your values.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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3/19/2011 2:28:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 11:51:05 AM, Sieben wrote:
I have experienced discrimination. Therefore there is discrimination. For some reason this is a thread.

She's looking for other people to confirm her beliefs, while discounting any contradictions posed. Sounds familiar, no?
Thaddeus
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3/19/2011 2:31:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 2:28:45 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/19/2011 11:51:05 AM, Sieben wrote:
I have experienced discrimination. Therefore there is discrimination. For some reason this is a thread.

She's looking for other people to confirm her beliefs, while discounting any contradictions posed. Sounds familiar, no?

ZING!
Thaddeus
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3/19/2011 2:48:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 2:38:25 PM, nonentity wrote:
If it wasn't lame to sig myself, I would :p

Nothing much important in my sig atm...
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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3/19/2011 3:22:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 2:28:45 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/19/2011 11:51:05 AM, Sieben wrote:
I have experienced discrimination. Therefore there is discrimination. For some reason this is a thread.

She's looking for other people to confirm her beliefs, while discounting any contradictions posed. Sounds familiar, no?

Nope. I always admitted there were exceptions to any rule, and I was never trying to get others to rally around the topic. So this thread is not an echo of myself.

I really don't understand how this counts as a "zing" even if it were correct.
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Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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3/19/2011 3:48:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Be called Nigger maliciously 3 twice - each event was quite funny.

When in predominantly white areas people sometimes act funny towards me.

That's about. Sorry to hear what you've been through.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Zetsubou
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3/19/2011 3:51:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Black user says they're black in a thread were the topic is about black people

INSTA BACK LASH!

Stay classy DDO.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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3/19/2011 4:02:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 3:22:10 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 3/19/2011 2:28:45 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/19/2011 11:51:05 AM, Sieben wrote:
I have experienced discrimination. Therefore there is discrimination. For some reason this is a thread.

She's looking for other people to confirm her beliefs, while discounting any contradictions posed. Sounds familiar, no?

Nope. I always admitted there were exceptions to any rule,

Exactly, and you discount it. How many times did you say "we all know Tiger Woods exists". You claim, despite the "exceptions to the rule" (and your problem is you think stereotypes are a rule) what you say is still valid or true.

and I was never trying to get others to rally around the topic. So this thread is not an echo of myself.

You and your friends make fun of black people because the "stereotypes are largely true" based on your confirmation bias (among other things, I'm sure). This thread is an echo of yourself in real life.
Sieben
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3/19/2011 4:39:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 4:02:49 PM, nonentity wrote:

Exactly, and you discount it. How many times did you say "we all know Tiger Woods exists".
And what else should I say? How should I handle that issue? It is a persistent phenomenon in all empirical disciplines that there be exceptions.

You claim, despite the "exceptions to the rule" (and your problem is you think stereotypes are a rule) what you say is still valid or true.

There you go again with "valid"/"true". I never made a deductive argument surrounding stereotypes. This is an attempt to straw man me into an indefensible position.

and I was never trying to get others to rally around the topic. So this thread is not an echo of myself.

You and your friends make fun of black people because the "stereotypes are largely true"
Well that they exist and are commonly found.

based on your confirmation bias (among other things, I'm sure).
Oh, but I already posited an alternative explanation about why people find racist jokes funny. You didn't rebut it, so please stop imposing narrow psychological constraints on me. You don't even know me :I

This thread is an echo of yourself in real life.

Still not seeing that. We all know there is some discrimination. That is all the factual content this thread presents. The rest is just emotional outrage. My discourse on race has not been emotional, and has focused on statistics, not anecdotes.
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nonentity
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3/19/2011 5:16:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 4:39:37 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 3/19/2011 4:02:49 PM, nonentity wrote:

Exactly, and you discount it. How many times did you say "we all know Tiger Woods exists".
And what else should I say? How should I handle that issue? It is a persistent phenomenon in all empirical disciplines that there be exceptions.

You claim, despite the "exceptions to the rule" (and your problem is you think stereotypes are a rule) what you say is still valid or true.

There you go again with "valid"/"true". I never made a deductive argument surrounding stereotypes. This is an attempt to straw man me into an indefensible position.


How? You just said above that there are "exceptions" which inherently implies that you think stereotypes are a RULE to be EXCEPTED.

and I was never trying to get others to rally around the topic. So this thread is not an echo of myself.

You and your friends make fun of black people because the "stereotypes are largely true"
Well that they exist and are commonly found.


They are also commonly not found and you completely fail to acknowledge that. inb4 "Tiger Woods" (who is only 1/4 black anyway)

based on your confirmation bias (among other things, I'm sure).
Oh, but I already posited an alternative explanation about why people find racist jokes funny. You didn't rebut it, so please stop imposing narrow psychological constraints on me. You don't even know me :I


What does that have to do with your confirmation bias? I never said racist jokes were never funny. But sometimes they are not, especially when there is malicious intent behind it.

This thread is an echo of yourself in real life.

Still not seeing that. We all know there is some discrimination. That is all the factual content this thread presents. The rest is just emotional outrage. My discourse on race has not been emotional, and has focused on statistics, not anecdotes.

Blah blah blah statistics. That wasn't a statistical debate, it was a socio-cultural one. You tried to make it a statistical debate.

My parallel between you and the OP was that you said there was no point to the thread, and I said the point was to confirm her biases, much like you use statistics to confirm your own biases.
Sieben
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3/19/2011 5:53:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 5:16:58 PM, nonentity wrote:

How? You just said above that there are "exceptions" which inherently implies that you think stereotypes are a RULE to be EXCEPTED.

Some stereotypes are expectations. But there are "exceptions" to rules which only apply, say 20%, of the time. An expectation is only a guess after all. Your contention with me lies entirely within your non-technical use of words.

Well that they exist and are commonly found.

They are also commonly not found and you completely fail to acknowledge that.

I thought my example of asians/math made it clear that I'm aware stereotypes may not apply the majority of the time.

based on your confirmation bias (among other things, I'm sure).
Oh, but I already posited an alternative explanation about why people find racist jokes funny. You didn't rebut it, so please stop imposing narrow psychological constraints on me. You don't even know me :I

What does that have to do with your confirmation bias?
Well you're implying that I have it for some reason.

I never said racist jokes were never funny. But sometimes they are not, especially when there is malicious intent behind it.

So if I say I think racist jokes are funny, you don't know why because there are multiple reasons why I might think so.

Blah blah blah statistics. That wasn't a statistical debate, it was a socio-cultural one. You tried to make it a statistical debate.

Rational stereotyping is inherently statistical.

My parallel between you and the OP was that you said there was no point to the thread, and I said the point was to confirm her biases,

Her view is rooted in personal anecdotes. I do not use personal anecdotes. Her goal is to shame hypocritical yuppies. My goal is to satisfy my intellectual curiosity.

So yeah, doesn't really sound familiar.

much like you use statistics to confirm your own biases.

You're basically saying that I'm racist and then go around looking for statistics to cover up my racism. That's really low. Can you have a discussion without calling names? Its not really a bias if it has good statistical support.
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FREEDO
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3/19/2011 6:03:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Racism is still a huge issue in America. One in five Americans still refuse to vote for a black person, don't let our presidential election fool you. Alabama only legalized bi-racial marriage a few years back. The issue is way down-played.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

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darkkermit
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3/19/2011 7:25:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If it makes you feel better, I hate you artwoymn cause you lack intelligence, do not use logic to come up with conclusions, and refuse to back up your claims by accepting official debate challenges. Not because your black.

I mean seriously, you wouldn't even accept my debate challenges, and my debate record is quite bad.

Either STFU or back up your claims.
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Extremely-Far-Right
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3/19/2011 11:54:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 9:15:57 AM, artwomyn wrote:
At 3/19/2011 8:42:19 AM, Danielle wrote:
I think it's been mentioned before that there are only a small handful of black/Hispanic users here (like 3), so there's no reason to direct your question to minorities in particular if you ever want a response lol.

You wrote, "From my own experiences, it seems to me that many 'progressive' cities, want to keep blacks and browns out. They want to deny blacks and browns decent housing, jobs, and overall respect." I'm assuming you have some sort of evidence that minorities are specifically being kept out? I would imagine so considering these are pretty big accusations with legal ramifications.

I'm guessing that the cost of living in those cities is increasing, and minorities, who on balance have lower paying jobs, cannot afford to live in those cities. To be honest you come off as racist by automatically implying otherwise.

DON'T accuse me of racism. Seems like anytime a person of color discusses their experiences with racism, a white person accuses THEM of racism. Well that's a cheap, pathetic trick.

Maybe I shouldn't have posted a thread about racism here, if not many people of color are members. Because I don't want only responses from whites, most of whom are clueless about what people of color go through, with regards to racism!

I'm a very hardcore racial realist, and I'll challenge you to a debate about racism.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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3/20/2011 3:36:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 8:16:15 AM, artwomyn wrote:
They want to deny blacks and browns decent housing, jobs, and overall respect. The only minority group that I've seen, that are welcome in 'progressive' cities, are Asians.

Hmm... are you talking about social housing?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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3/20/2011 3:40:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 3:51:11 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Black user says they're black in a thread were the topic is about black people

INSTA BACK LASH!

Stay classy DDO.

You, or rather the attitude you express are what holds back the black population.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
brian_eggleston
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3/20/2011 4:19:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I was having dinner with some very good friends of mine once and one of them, Nick, claimed he was being held back in his career because he speaks with a Northern accent.

Another friend of mine, Steve, dismissed this but Nick responded that Steve didn't know what it was like to be discriminated against.

Steve just looked at him in blank disbelief: Steve is Chinese!
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Danielle
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3/20/2011 8:07:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 11:54:21 PM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
I'm a very hardcore racial realist, and I'll challenge you to a debate about racism.

Racial realist? Wtf is that? LOL challenge me instead. I'm guessing I'm against whatever position you are...
President of DDO