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Is welfare charity or tribute?

Greyparrot
Posts: 14,268
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3/22/2011 3:46:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 3:39:31 PM, OreEle wrote:
can I get a clarification on your definitions?

Dictionary.com I guess, I didn't know there were multiple meanings, I'll look into it.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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3/22/2011 3:53:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It's certainly not charity. Charity comes from a value within the individual, this is something done without any sort of voluntary action involved.

Tribute? Possibly as payment for a permanent voting class.
Ore_Ele
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3/22/2011 3:58:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 3:46:35 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/22/2011 3:39:31 PM, OreEle wrote:
can I get a clarification on your definitions?

Dictionary.com I guess, I didn't know there were multiple meanings, I'll look into it.

There are different ways of interpreting it, absolutly.

http://www.google.com...=

http://www.google.com...=

I'd say it fits under the charity definition more closely, since it is done more for need, rather than for protection.
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mattrodstrom
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3/22/2011 4:00:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 3:58:56 PM, OreEle wrote:
I'd say it fits under the charity definition more closely, since it is done more for need, rather than for protection.

charity isn't compulsory.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

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socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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3/22/2011 4:03:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 3:21:44 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
If it is charity, who decides?

If it is tribute, how do you qualify?

It doesn't fit either. Charity is voluntary and tribute is for protection.
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Ore_Ele
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3/22/2011 4:05:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 3:53:29 PM, innomen wrote:
It's certainly not charity. Charity comes from a value within the individual, this is something done without any sort of voluntary action involved.

Charity does not have to come from an individual, since it can be done by groups and companies. Welfare is done by governments because the people (i.e. voters) have expressed a desire for the government to do it.


Tribute? Possibly as payment for a permanent voting class.

that would be a very wasteful vote-buying process, if that was the case.
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Ore_Ele
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3/22/2011 4:06:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 4:00:08 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/22/2011 3:58:56 PM, OreEle wrote:
I'd say it fits under the charity definition more closely, since it is done more for need, rather than for protection.

charity isn't compulsory.

Neither is welfare. Our government could stop at any time if the people voted so.
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CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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3/22/2011 4:09:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
In a way, it is for protection.

Say "fvck the poor" long enough, and you are just asking for a revolution.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Ore_Ele
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3/22/2011 4:11:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 4:09:02 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
In a way, it is for protection.

Say "fvck the poor" long enough, and you are just asking for a revolution.

That may be an effect of it, but that doesn't mean that is the reason for it.
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darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/22/2011 4:20:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 4:11:56 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:09:02 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
In a way, it is for protection.

Say "fvck the poor" long enough, and you are just asking for a revolution.

That may be an effect of it, but that doesn't mean that is the reason for it.

seems unlikely, at least in free market system. Any person poor enough to start a revolution, and win, would not be poor in the first place.
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CosmicAlfonzo
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3/22/2011 4:22:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 4:11:56 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:09:02 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
In a way, it is for protection.

Say "fvck the poor" long enough, and you are just asking for a revolution.

That may be an effect of it, but that doesn't mean that is the reason for it.

When it comes to the government, I'm sure "national security" or politics has something to do with it.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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3/22/2011 4:27:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 4:20:41 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:11:56 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:09:02 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
In a way, it is for protection.

Say "fvck the poor" long enough, and you are just asking for a revolution.

That may be an effect of it, but that doesn't mean that is the reason for it.

seems unlikely, at least in free market system. Any person poor enough to start a revolution, and win, would not be poor in the first place.

Hah true that
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innomen
Posts: 10,052
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3/22/2011 4:44:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 4:05:32 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/22/2011 3:53:29 PM, innomen wrote:
It's certainly not charity. Charity comes from a value within the individual, this is something done without any sort of voluntary action involved.

Charity does not have to come from an individual, since it can be done by groups and companies. Welfare is done by governments because the people (i.e. voters) have expressed a desire for the government to do it.
Maybe but not really. A charitable act, or an act as a result of charity is not truly done by a group unless it's complete and total consensus in motive, and that's not the case here, and it is rarely the case in other instances.


Tribute? Possibly as payment for a permanent voting class.

that would be a very wasteful vote-buying process, if that was the case.
tell me about it.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/22/2011 4:48:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 4:44:59 PM, innomen wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:05:32 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/22/2011 3:53:29 PM, innomen wrote:
It's certainly not charity. Charity comes from a value within the individual, this is something done without any sort of voluntary action involved.

Charity does not have to come from an individual, since it can be done by groups and companies. Welfare is done by governments because the people (i.e. voters) have expressed a desire for the government to do it.
Maybe but not really. A charitable act, or an act as a result of charity is not truly done by a group unless it's complete and total consensus in motive, and that's not the case here, and it is rarely the case in other instances.

It is done on behalf of the group, by a leader of the group (like the head of a publicly traded company giving company money to charity).



Tribute? Possibly as payment for a permanent voting class.

that would be a very wasteful vote-buying process, if that was the case.
tell me about it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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3/22/2011 4:58:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 4:48:49 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:44:59 PM, innomen wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:05:32 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/22/2011 3:53:29 PM, innomen wrote:
It's certainly not charity. Charity comes from a value within the individual, this is something done without any sort of voluntary action involved.

Charity does not have to come from an individual, since it can be done by groups and companies. Welfare is done by governments because the people (i.e. voters) have expressed a desire for the government to do it.
Maybe but not really. A charitable act, or an act as a result of charity is not truly done by a group unless it's complete and total consensus in motive, and that's not the case here, and it is rarely the case in other instances.

It is done on behalf of the group, by a leader of the group (like the head of a publicly traded company giving company money to charity).
Not charity, PR.



Tribute? Possibly as payment for a permanent voting class.

that would be a very wasteful vote-buying process, if that was the case.
tell me about it.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/22/2011 5:07:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 4:58:03 PM, innomen wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:48:49 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:44:59 PM, innomen wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:05:32 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/22/2011 3:53:29 PM, innomen wrote:
It's certainly not charity. Charity comes from a value within the individual, this is something done without any sort of voluntary action involved.

Charity does not have to come from an individual, since it can be done by groups and companies. Welfare is done by governments because the people (i.e. voters) have expressed a desire for the government to do it.
Maybe but not really. A charitable act, or an act as a result of charity is not truly done by a group unless it's complete and total consensus in motive, and that's not the case here, and it is rarely the case in other instances.

It is done on behalf of the group, by a leader of the group (like the head of a publicly traded company giving company money to charity).
Not charity, PR.

Not in most cases, otherwise the giving wouldn't be that common and/or would be require press releases or some other way for info to get out that they are such a good company. Many companies give anonymously or only accept a minimal amount of recognition for their giving (much less than what it could get if invested in other forms of advertising).

Do companies benefit for giving? Of course, but again, that doesn't mean that is the reason that they are doing it.

Example, I don't choose to not drive drunk because I don't want to get arrested, I choose to not drive drunk because I don't want to risk my own safety. Sure, I benefit by not getting arrested, but that is not my motivation.
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Greyparrot
Posts: 14,268
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3/22/2011 5:14:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I guess I could agree with Innomen that if the welfare recipients were not allowed to vote, then welfare would truly be charity.
Greyparrot
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3/22/2011 5:20:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 3:58:56 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/22/2011 3:46:35 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/22/2011 3:39:31 PM, OreEle wrote:
can I get a clarification on your definitions?

Dictionary.com I guess, I didn't know there were multiple meanings, I'll look into it.

There are different ways of interpreting it, absolutly.

http://www.google.com...=

http://www.google.com...=

I'd say it fits under the charity definition more closely, since it is done more for need, rather than for protection.

something given or done as an expression of esteem
This is more relevant as Liberal Politicians often praise the poor.

Protection applies to nations or gangsters, neither of these categories describe welfare recipients.
Ogan
Posts: 407
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3/22/2011 5:22:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 4:00:08 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/22/2011 3:58:56 PM, OreEle wrote:
I'd say it fits under the charity definition more closely, since it is done more for need, rather than for protection.

charity isn't compulsory.

That's why there's welfare, because people would starve if it was left to the odd bit of pity - a rare thing indeed these days!
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,268
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3/22/2011 5:26:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 5:22:53 PM, Ogan wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:00:08 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/22/2011 3:58:56 PM, OreEle wrote:
I'd say it fits under the charity definition more closely, since it is done more for need, rather than for protection.

charity isn't compulsory.

That's why there's welfare, because people would starve if it was left to the odd bit of pity - a rare thing indeed these days!

Well that is an interesting question, is welfare compulsory? It is a policy that reflects the will of the voters, but do the votes contributed by the poor make it compulsory?
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/22/2011 5:28:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 5:22:53 PM, Ogan wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:00:08 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/22/2011 3:58:56 PM, OreEle wrote:
I'd say it fits under the charity definition more closely, since it is done more for need, rather than for protection.

charity isn't compulsory.

That's why there's welfare, because people would starve if it was left to the odd bit of pity - a rare thing indeed these days!

My problem with the concept of social welfare is that it is given only to the people of that country. I mean, honestly, who has it better off, someone in Africa or someone in a developed country like the US or many European countries? The developed country. Who gets the welfare? Those living in the developed country.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/22/2011 5:29:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 5:28:02 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/22/2011 5:22:53 PM, Ogan wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:00:08 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/22/2011 3:58:56 PM, OreEle wrote:
I'd say it fits under the charity definition more closely, since it is done more for need, rather than for protection.

charity isn't compulsory.

That's why there's welfare, because people would starve if it was left to the odd bit of pity - a rare thing indeed these days!

My problem with the concept of social welfare is that it is given only to the people of that country. I mean, honestly, who has it better off, someone in Africa or someone in a developed country like the US or many European countries? The developed country. Who gets the welfare? Those living in the developed country.

We provide to help those in Africa. If we get too involved to help people in other countries, people start complaining about imperialism and what not.
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darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/22/2011 5:36:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 5:29:34 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/22/2011 5:28:02 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/22/2011 5:22:53 PM, Ogan wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:00:08 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/22/2011 3:58:56 PM, OreEle wrote:
I'd say it fits under the charity definition more closely, since it is done more for need, rather than for protection.

charity isn't compulsory.

That's why there's welfare, because people would starve if it was left to the odd bit of pity - a rare thing indeed these days!

My problem with the concept of social welfare is that it is given only to the people of that country. I mean, honestly, who has it better off, someone in Africa or someone in a developed country like the US or many European countries? The developed country. Who gets the welfare? Those living in the developed country.

We provide to help those in Africa. If we get too involved to help people in other countries, people start complaining about imperialism and what not.

A small proportion to the amount actually needed.

Of course, it is true that many "gifts" to other countries are conditional gifts. If we gave money to Africa unconditionally, I wouldn't see the problem.
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/22/2011 5:37:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 5:36:08 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/22/2011 5:29:34 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/22/2011 5:28:02 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/22/2011 5:22:53 PM, Ogan wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:00:08 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/22/2011 3:58:56 PM, OreEle wrote:
I'd say it fits under the charity definition more closely, since it is done more for need, rather than for protection.

charity isn't compulsory.

That's why there's welfare, because people would starve if it was left to the odd bit of pity - a rare thing indeed these days!

My problem with the concept of social welfare is that it is given only to the people of that country. I mean, honestly, who has it better off, someone in Africa or someone in a developed country like the US or many European countries? The developed country. Who gets the welfare? Those living in the developed country.

We provide to help those in Africa. If we get too involved to help people in other countries, people start complaining about imperialism and what not.

A small proportion to the amount actually needed.

Of course, it is true that many "gifts" to other countries are conditional gifts. If we gave money to Africa unconditionally, I wouldn't see the problem.

We also see alot of it stolen by war lords (as well as a lot of the food we send). Part of the reason we put conditions on those gifts.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/22/2011 5:39:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 5:37:42 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/22/2011 5:36:08 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/22/2011 5:29:34 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/22/2011 5:28:02 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/22/2011 5:22:53 PM, Ogan wrote:
At 3/22/2011 4:00:08 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/22/2011 3:58:56 PM, OreEle wrote:
I'd say it fits under the charity definition more closely, since it is done more for need, rather than for protection.

charity isn't compulsory.

That's why there's welfare, because people would starve if it was left to the odd bit of pity - a rare thing indeed these days!

My problem with the concept of social welfare is that it is given only to the people of that country. I mean, honestly, who has it better off, someone in Africa or someone in a developed country like the US or many European countries? The developed country. Who gets the welfare? Those living in the developed country.

We provide to help those in Africa. If we get too involved to help people in other countries, people start complaining about imperialism and what not.

A small proportion to the amount actually needed.

Of course, it is true that many "gifts" to other countries are conditional gifts. If we gave money to Africa unconditionally, I wouldn't see the problem.

We also see alot of it stolen by war lords (as well as a lot of the food we send). Part of the reason we put conditions on those gifts.

Doubt its the reason. I'd think it would be more realpolitik motivated then the kindness of the government's heart.

ALso you can give the money directly to the people instead of to the government.
Open borders debate:
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phantom
Posts: 6,774
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4/4/2011 4:10:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Welfare is forced charity.

Tax payers are forced to pay for it. Therefore the people on welfare should thank the middle class not the government.
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