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Is race a consequential biological reality?

rhettro
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3/23/2011 12:07:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Is race a biological reality, or a social construct?

Is it wrong to believe that racial groups differ on the basis of average intelligence, or on the basis of behavioral and physical traits?

If so, how do we establish that the evolutionary process resulted in anthropological equality? Or doesn't it matter?
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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3/23/2011 12:10:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 12:07:26 AM, rhettro wrote:
Is race a biological reality, or a social construct?

The differences which consitute race are indeed a biological reality but the races themselves are social constructs (such as "white", "black", "asian", etc.)

Is it wrong to believe that racial groups differ on the basis of average intelligence, or on the basis of behavioral and physical traits?

Is it wrong? No. But without sufficient evidence, I don't see why I would come to the conclusion that someone is dumb or predisposed to violence because of their race.

If so, how do we establish that the evolutionary process resulted in anthropological equality? Or doesn't it matter?

I don't believe in the inherent equality of man.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/23/2011 12:22:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 12:07:26 AM, rhettro wrote:
Is race a biological reality, or a social construct?

"the scientific community feels that the idea of race is often used by the general public[6] in a naive[7] or simplistic way, erroneously designating wholly discrete types of individuals. Among humans, race has no cladistic significance—all people belong to the same hominid subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens.[8][9] Social conceptions and groupings of races vary over time, involving folk taxonomies[11][12][13] that define essential types of individuals based on perceived sets of traits. Scientists consider biological essentialism (race) obsolete,[14] and generally discourage racial explanations for collective differentiation in both physical and behavioral traits. ...races are said to be social constructs"
-- http://en.wikipedia.org...

Is it wrong to believe that racial groups differ on the basis of average intelligence, or on the basis of behavioral and physical traits?

Yes, because it's based on a false premise. Plus, it's not very nice.

If so, how do we establish that the evolutionary process resulted in anthropological equality? Or doesn't it matter?

You don't have to establish "equality." The burden is on the person trying to demonstrate the difference.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
rhettro
Posts: 64
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3/23/2011 12:34:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 12:22:32 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
You don't have to establish "equality." The burden is on the person trying to demonstrate the difference.

No, I'm pretty sure the burden is on the person who is trying to reconcile evolution (if they choose to believe in it) with anthropological egalitarianism.

It turns out the scientific community is decidedly not confirmed in its non-racialism and egalitarianism.

http://unamusementpark.wordpress.com...
http://www.npitv.com...
http://www.gnxp.com...
http://www.isteve.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://psychology.uwo.ca...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

That as just a casual pull of links. You guys don't seem to be up on the literature. Forgive me if I predict character attacks, insinuations, etc., rather than plain argument.

Someone also remarked that it isn't nice to believe in racial difference. This is the result of constant propagandistic portraits of racial ideas and feeling. Racial egalitarianism, and egalitarianism in general, is one of the worst conceits of the ruling class, and the result of untold misery for populations.
rhettro
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3/23/2011 12:36:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 12:34:49 AM, rhettro wrote:
Racial egalitarianism, and egalitarianism in general, is one of the worst conceits of the ruling class, and the result of untold misery for populations.

I meant to remark, "results in untold misery for populations."
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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3/23/2011 12:53:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 12:34:49 AM, rhettro wrote:

http://unamusementpark.wordpress.com...

"the various human races (e.g., blacks and whites) are obviously different—with appeals to differences in athletic ability (which favor blacks) because they are much less embarrassing to liberals than differences in mental ability (which favor whites)"

It actually favours Asians. I find it interesting that white people always try to portray themselves as the "standard" or "average" with everyone else being a devation (eg. intelligence, penis size).

http://www.npitv.com...

Didn't watch the whole video but his comparison of human races to dog breeds is deeply flawed.

http://www.gnxp.com...

tl;dr but it would be nice if you summarized it.

http://www.isteve.com...

I don't see the relevance of this. There are way to many articles for me to read through that.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

I don't see the relevance of this.

http://psychology.uwo.ca...

As far as I know, Rushton's work is constantly discredited by his peers.

http://en.wikipedia.org...


LOL @ him for giving an IQ test to bushmen.
nonentity
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3/23/2011 12:53:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 12:53:08 AM, nonentity wrote:

It actually favours Asians. I find it interesting that white people always try to portray themselves as the "standard" or "average" with everyone else being a deviation (eg. intelligence, penis size).


Fix'd.
nonentity
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3/23/2011 1:04:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"In his speech, Rushton contended that Islam was not just a cultural, but also a genetic problem. According to Rushton, the Muslim problem is not just a condition of their particular belief system. Instead, he argued that Muslims have an aggressive personality with relatively closed, simple minds, and are less impervious to reason than one might expect."

lol Is this guy serious...
rhettro
Posts: 64
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3/23/2011 1:05:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 12:53:52 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/23/2011 12:53:08 AM, nonentity wrote:

It actually favours Asians. I find it interesting that white people always try to portray themselves as the "standard" or "average" with everyone else being a deviation (eg. intelligence, penis size).


Fix'd.

Tl-dr is not going to cut it when we're trying to come to grips with scientific findings and writings.
Ragnar_Rahl
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3/23/2011 1:07:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
If someone asserts that race is "consequential," in a nonmedical sense, they indeed have something to prove. Linking isn't arguing btw. The purpose of giving links is to confirm a specific fact which you've hopefully linked to your overall thesis.

After all, whoever these "Scientific egalitarians" are (They sound pretty stupid, but that doesn't really make them much but straw here), if their only actual policy preference is treating individuals as individuals, their claim has no apparent difference with any consequence from being agnostic on the issue.

What is the interrace average difference in intelligence/other trait of your choice?
How is that measured?
How does it compare to the standard deviation between individuals?
What consequences do you propose that has, and how do you link it to those consequences?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
rhettro
Posts: 64
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3/23/2011 1:07:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 12:53:08 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/23/2011 12:34:49 AM, rhettro wrote:

http://unamusementpark.wordpress.com...

"the various human races (e.g., blacks and whites) are obviously different—with appeals to differences in athletic ability (which favor blacks) because they are much less embarrassing to liberals than differences in mental ability (which favor whites)"

He was speaking simply in relation to blacks. I've read through his writing--he clearly observes what you say about overall Asian mental ability.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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3/23/2011 1:08:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"Articles in the Canadian press based on interviews with Rushton's first-year psychology students reported that Rushton had surveyed students in 1988 by asking "such questions as how large their penises are, how many sex partners they have had, and how far they can ejaculate."[34] First-year psychology students at UWO are required "to participate in approved surveys as a condition of their studies. If they choose not to, they must write one research paper. Also, many students feel subtle pressure to participate in order not to offend professors who may later be grading their work. However, if a study is not approved, these requirements do not apply at all."[34] For not telling them they had the option to not participate without incurring additional work, Rushton was barred by the university where he is tenured from using students as research subjects for two years.[34]

Also in 1988, Rushton conducted a survey at the Eaton Centre mall in Toronto where 50 whites, 50 blacks, and 50 Asians were paid to answer questions about their sexual habits. For not receiving permission of the university committee where he is employed, the administration at the University of Western Ontario reprimanded Rushton, calling his transgression "a serious breach of scholarly procedure," said University President, George Pederson.[34]"

Yeah, he's real credible.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/23/2011 1:08:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 1:05:19 AM, rhettro wrote:
At 3/23/2011 12:53:52 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/23/2011 12:53:08 AM, nonentity wrote:

It actually favours Asians. I find it interesting that white people always try to portray themselves as the "standard" or "average" with everyone else being a deviation (eg. intelligence, penis size).


Fix'd.

Tl-dr is not going to cut it when we're trying to come to grips with scientific findings and writings.

And neither are your evasions of all her contentions going to cut it on a debating site. You picked her weakest response ("tl;dr") and ignored all the rest.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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3/23/2011 1:10:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 1:05:19 AM, rhettro wrote:
At 3/23/2011 12:53:52 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/23/2011 12:53:08 AM, nonentity wrote:

It actually favours Asians. I find it interesting that white people always try to portray themselves as the "standard" or "average" with everyone else being a deviation (eg. intelligence, penis size).


Fix'd.

Tl-dr is not going to cut it when we're trying to come to grips with scientific findings and writings.

If you want to say something about it, then you need to summarize the relevant points. If I make a point about something, I'm not going to link you to a 14-page paper and expect you to sift through it to find my argument.
rhettro
Posts: 64
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3/23/2011 1:13:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 1:07:11 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:

What is the interrace average difference in intelligence/other trait of your choice?
How is that measured?
How does it compare to the standard deviation between individuals?
What consequences do you propose that has, and how do you link it to those consequences?

The basic burden is this: if you're going to buy into evolution, and differentiation based on the reproductive isolation of groups over long periods of time, it's on you to explain how this differentiation didn't affect differences among present groups of people. Did evolution stop somewhere? How and why?

The main consequence I think of concerns the way education is managed. The testing and graduation rates of blacks stubbornly refuse to reach the level of whites and Asians (whites refuse to reach the level of Asians, but that seems to be less of an urgent policy concern). We're led to believe that this is because of white racism and/or situational disparity, and we fund our efforts accordingly. But if our premises our wrong we don't have to put ourselves under so much pressure to arrange things as the egalitarian education industry demands. Just a thought.
rhettro
Posts: 64
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3/23/2011 1:15:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 1:08:35 AM, nonentity wrote:
"Articles in the Canadian press based on interviews with Rushton's first-year psychology students reported that Rushton had surveyed students in 1988 by asking "such questions as how large their penises are, how many sex partners they have had, and how far they can ejaculate."[34] First-year psychology students at UWO are required "to participate in approved surveys as a condition of their studies. If they choose not to, they must write one research paper. Also, many students feel subtle pressure to participate in order not to offend professors who may later be grading their work. However, if a study is not approved, these requirements do not apply at all."[34] For not telling them they had the option to not participate without incurring additional work, Rushton was barred by the university where he is tenured from using students as research subjects for two years.[34]

Also in 1988, Rushton conducted a survey at the Eaton Centre mall in Toronto where 50 whites, 50 blacks, and 50 Asians were paid to answer questions about their sexual habits. For not receiving permission of the university committee where he is employed, the administration at the University of Western Ontario reprimanded Rushton, calling his transgression "a serious breach of scholarly procedure," said University President, George Pederson.[34]"

Yeah, he's real credible.

I saw him give a presentation once, and I've read one of his books. He made sense, as far as it went. You have to appreciate how ferociously the media digs and attacks people who take the positions he does. It's wholly unfair.

In any event, he's just one fellow. You'd have to take up your case with many more academics and scientists before you managed to discredit this idea.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/23/2011 1:15:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"Pure races, in the sense of genetically homogeneous populations, do not exist in the human species today, nor is there any evidence that they have ever existed in the past."

-- American Anthropologist
http://www.virginia.edu...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
rhettro
Posts: 64
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3/23/2011 1:16:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 1:08:40 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/23/2011 1:05:19 AM, rhettro wrote:
At 3/23/2011 12:53:52 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/23/2011 12:53:08 AM, nonentity wrote:

It actually favours Asians. I find it interesting that white people always try to portray themselves as the "standard" or "average" with everyone else being a deviation (eg. intelligence, penis size).


Fix'd.

Tl-dr is not going to cut it when we're trying to come to grips with scientific findings and writings.

And neither are your evasions of all her contentions going to cut it on a debating site. You picked her weakest response ("tl;dr") and ignored all the rest.

You wholly ignored the challenged I put to you. Relax--don't rush into hypocrisy so quickly.
rhettro
Posts: 64
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3/23/2011 1:18:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 1:08:40 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/23/2011 1:05:19 AM, rhettro wrote:
At 3/23/2011 12:53:52 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/23/2011 12:53:08 AM, nonentity wrote:

It actually favours Asians. I find it interesting that white people always try to portray themselves as the "standard" or "average" with everyone else being a deviation (eg. intelligence, penis size).


Fix'd.

Tl-dr is not going to cut it when we're trying to come to grips with scientific findings and writings.

And neither are your evasions of all her contentions going to cut it on a debating site. You picked her weakest response ("tl;dr") and ignored all the rest.

Anyway, I'm pretty far from evasive. I'll answer all your questions at length, given time.
rhettro
Posts: 64
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3/23/2011 1:20:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 1:15:41 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"Pure races, in the sense of genetically homogeneous populations, do not exist in the human species today, nor is there any evidence that they have ever existed in the past."

-- American Anthropologist
http://www.virginia.edu...

You're still ignoring the challenge.

The conflict among anthropologists, between those who have a biological understanding and those who attack the biological understanding, is well documented. It's a house-to-house fight, so when one side takes over a journal or institution it uses it to air its particular viewpoint. I want you to explain your reasoning on the issue.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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3/23/2011 1:21:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 1:15:19 AM, rhettro wrote:
At 3/23/2011 1:08:35 AM, nonentity wrote:
"Articles in the Canadian press based on interviews with Rushton's first-year psychology students reported that Rushton had surveyed students in 1988 by asking "such questions as how large their penises are, how many sex partners they have had, and how far they can ejaculate."[34] First-year psychology students at UWO are required "to participate in approved surveys as a condition of their studies. If they choose not to, they must write one research paper. Also, many students feel subtle pressure to participate in order not to offend professors who may later be grading their work. However, if a study is not approved, these requirements do not apply at all."[34] For not telling them they had the option to not participate without incurring additional work, Rushton was barred by the university where he is tenured from using students as research subjects for two years.[34]

Also in 1988, Rushton conducted a survey at the Eaton Centre mall in Toronto where 50 whites, 50 blacks, and 50 Asians were paid to answer questions about their sexual habits. For not receiving permission of the university committee where he is employed, the administration at the University of Western Ontario reprimanded Rushton, calling his transgression "a serious breach of scholarly procedure," said University President, George Pederson.[34]"

Yeah, he's real credible.

I saw him give a presentation once, and I've read one of his books. He made sense, as far as it went. You have to appreciate how ferociously the media digs and attacks people who take the positions he does. It's wholly unfair.

In any event, he's just one fellow. You'd have to take up your case with many more academics and scientists before you managed to discredit this idea.

I'm not discrediting the idea. I don'tagree with it, but my dig at Rushton was to show that he's not really a credible "authority" on the matter... (since your argument was that some scientists are for this)

Apparently he taught at my school so I'm interested to see what other profs in the department think of him (I'm a Psych major).
rhettro
Posts: 64
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3/23/2011 1:22:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 1:21:15 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/23/2011 1:15:19 AM, rhettro wrote:
At 3/23/2011 1:08:35 AM, nonentity wrote:
"Articles in the Canadian press based on interviews with Rushton's first-year psychology students reported that Rushton had surveyed students in 1988 by asking "such questions as how large their penises are, how many sex partners they have had, and how far they can ejaculate."[34] First-year psychology students at UWO are required "to participate in approved surveys as a condition of their studies. If they choose not to, they must write one research paper. Also, many students feel subtle pressure to participate in order not to offend professors who may later be grading their work. However, if a study is not approved, these requirements do not apply at all."[34] For not telling them they had the option to not participate without incurring additional work, Rushton was barred by the university where he is tenured from using students as research subjects for two years.[34]

Also in 1988, Rushton conducted a survey at the Eaton Centre mall in Toronto where 50 whites, 50 blacks, and 50 Asians were paid to answer questions about their sexual habits. For not receiving permission of the university committee where he is employed, the administration at the University of Western Ontario reprimanded Rushton, calling his transgression "a serious breach of scholarly procedure," said University President, George Pederson.[34]"

Yeah, he's real credible.

I saw him give a presentation once, and I've read one of his books. He made sense, as far as it went. You have to appreciate how ferociously the media digs and attacks people who take the positions he does. It's wholly unfair.

In any event, he's just one fellow. You'd have to take up your case with many more academics and scientists before you managed to discredit this idea.

I'm not discrediting the idea. I don'tagree with it, but my dig at Rushton was to show that he's not really a credible "authority" on the matter... (since your argument was that some scientists are for this)

Apparently he taught at my school so I'm interested to see what other profs in the department think of him (I'm a Psych major).

Interesting.

Anywho, it's bedtime. I'll check in on this tomorrow. PEACE!
GeoLaureate8
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3/23/2011 1:23:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 1:13:46 AM, rhettro wrote:
At 3/23/2011 1:07:11 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:

What is the interrace average difference in intelligence/other trait of your choice?
How is that measured?
How does it compare to the standard deviation between individuals?
What consequences do you propose that has, and how do you link it to those consequences?

The basic burden is this: if you're going to buy into evolution, and differentiation based on the reproductive isolation of groups over long periods of time, it's on you to explain how this differentiation didn't affect differences among present groups of people. Did evolution stop somewhere? How and why?

Nobody is denying differentiation.

Everybody is different. But everyone is part of the human species. What we are denying is sub-groups of the human species. Just because we deny the pseudo-scientific assertion of sub-groups of the human species doesn't mean we are denying differentiation.

The main consequence I think of concerns the way education is managed. The testing and graduation rates of blacks stubbornly refuse to reach the level of whites and Asians (whites refuse to reach the level of Asians, but that seems to be less of an urgent policy concern). We're led to believe that this is because of white racism and/or situational disparity, and we fund our efforts accordingly..

You are making the assumption that there is an actual biological difference between white, Asians, and blacks so how can you sit there and talk about the difference of intelligence between these supposed races that you presumed to exist when it hasn't even been established that such a biological difference between race exists?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/23/2011 1:29:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 1:13:46 AM, rhettro wrote:
At 3/23/2011 1:07:11 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:

What is the interrace average difference in intelligence/other trait of your choice?
How is that measured?
How does it compare to the standard deviation between individuals?
What consequences do you propose that has, and how do you link it to those consequences?

The basic burden is this: if you're going to buy into evolution, and differentiation based on the reproductive isolation of groups over long periods of time, it's on you to explain how this differentiation didn't affect differences among present groups of people.
Which differences? That's the missing part. If you were specific, it would become clear that the specific claim is on the burden of the affirmative as always. And who claims affirmatively "There are no differences between races?" Not even melanin?

The main consequence I think of concerns the way education is managed. The testing and graduation rates of blacks stubbornly refuse to reach the level of whites and Asians (whites refuse to reach the level of Asians, but that seems to be less of an urgent policy concern). We're led to believe that this is because of white racism and/or situational disparity
Perhaps you are. Some of us don't think it's an issue that needs explaining.
As a matter of fact, to assume an explanation true simply because of the lack of an alternative proposal is known as the fallacy "argument from ignorance."
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
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3/23/2011 1:29:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 1:16:43 AM, rhettro wrote:
You wholly ignored the challenged I put to you. Relax--don't rush into hypocrisy so quickly.

What challenge? I don't see it. If you did issue one, make it more clear because nothing you said indicates a challenge, it's nothing more than argumentation.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
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3/23/2011 1:34:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 1:15:41 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Pure races, in the sense of genetically homogeneous populations

As far as I can tell "race" is a concept that can exist in the absence of homogoneity within a race. It's a rough correlation defined vaguely by some relation between features. It could be defined more strictly and still survive. Of course, ideas of racial purity or supremacy would have a tough time surviving WITH it, but that's no reason to throw away the concept that people who share one genetic feature are reasonably likely to share certain others-- after all, it does have consequences when selecting pharmaeceuticals, or determining how risky that next burger is for a sedentary person.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
feverish
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3/24/2011 6:46:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 12:07:26 AM, rhettro wrote:
Is race a biological reality, or a social construct?

Race is a social construct, guided by peceptions and assumptions about superficial biological differences.

Is it wrong to believe that racial groups differ on the basis of average intelligence, or on the basis of behavioral and physical traits?

Depends on your definition of intelligence and the kind of traits you're referring to, but in any meaningful non-superficial sense, yes it is wrong. Behaviour is certainly more cultural than biological in my opinon.

If so, how do we establish that the evolutionary process resulted in anthropological equality? Or doesn't it matter?

Why should it matter? Do you believe in evolution?
Extremely-Far-Right
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3/24/2011 6:57:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 12:07:26 AM, rhettro wrote:
Is race a biological reality, or a social construct?

Is it wrong to believe that racial groups differ on the basis of average intelligence, or on the basis of behavioral and physical traits?

If so, how do we establish that the evolutionary process resulted in anthropological equality? Or doesn't it matter?

Lol man, your always talking about race on here! At least talk about other stuff besides that. I talk about race too, but if you constantly talk about it, you will only look like another David Duke. And well...we all know what happened to his political career...
Extremely-Far-Right
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3/24/2011 7:17:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 12:07:26 AM, rhettro wrote:
Is race a biological reality, or a social construct?
I think race is somewhat of both actually. It depends how you look at it.

Is it wrong to believe that racial groups differ on the basis of average intelligence, or on the basis of behavioral and physical traits?
Well if you look at history, nearly all of the best inventions and innovations from those inventions have come from Europe, North America, and Asia.

If so, how do we establish that the evolutionary process resulted in anthropological equality? Or doesn't it matter?
As feverish said, it depends if you believe in evolution.