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Indophile
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3/25/2011 1:03:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't know if this can be generalized, but it does seem that any system whose success depends upon people behaving rationally is doomed. People, of course, do not behave rationally.

For example, if everybody behaved rationally, there would not be any need for a separate law and order machinery. But we all know that this is not the case, sadly.

Given this inherent irrationality, wouldn't you say that it's highly dangerous allowing people to own guns? As I see it, the only way to make people who have guns to toe the line, is by threatening them with even bigger guns. Having a gun does give a sense of empowerment to people and this could be highly dangerous to society as a whole.

Thoughts?
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lewis20
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3/25/2011 1:08:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I enjoy hunting and shooting skeet
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Indophile
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3/25/2011 1:40:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 1:08:24 PM, lewis20 wrote:
I enjoy hunting and shooting skeet

I don't enjoy the intense security at airports
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lewis20
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3/25/2011 1:47:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 1:40:35 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 1:08:24 PM, lewis20 wrote:
I enjoy hunting and shooting skeet

I don't enjoy the intense security at airports

Whats that have to do with me owning a gun. 911 was done with box cutters.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Greyparrot
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3/25/2011 1:51:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I guess the OP means to say by 'guns' he means any dangerous or potentially fatal tool. (even cars?)

yep cars kill people, people do not kill people.
lewis20
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3/25/2011 1:53:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Fingernail clippers
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Indophile
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3/25/2011 1:53:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 1:47:13 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 3/25/2011 1:40:35 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 1:08:24 PM, lewis20 wrote:
I enjoy hunting and shooting skeet

I don't enjoy the intense security at airports

Whats that have to do with me owning a gun. 911 was done with box cutters.

You have a gun. You use it for hunting. Good guy. Bad guy uses it for something else. To capture bad guy, big guns needed. Bigger bad guys use bigger guns for something else. And I have to suffer through security.

Anyway, what I meant was, I don't enjoy the intense security at airports, but I still go through it. I suffer a loss of my enjoyment/comfort. Wouldn't that apply to your case?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Indophile
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3/25/2011 1:55:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 1:51:32 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I guess the OP means to say by 'guns' he means any dangerous or potentially fatal tool. (even cars?)

yep cars kill people, people do not kill people.

Is there anything cars can do other than kill? Is there anything guns can do other than kill?
You will say that I don't really know you
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lewis20
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3/25/2011 2:04:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 1:55:02 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 1:51:32 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I guess the OP means to say by 'guns' he means any dangerous or potentially fatal tool. (even cars?)

yep cars kill people, people do not kill people.

Is there anything cars can do other than kill? Is there anything guns can do other than kill?

They can both kill deer, only one can you shoot skeet with though.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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3/25/2011 2:05:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 1:53:49 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 1:47:13 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 3/25/2011 1:40:35 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 1:08:24 PM, lewis20 wrote:
I enjoy hunting and shooting skeet

I don't enjoy the intense security at airports

Whats that have to do with me owning a gun. 911 was done with box cutters.

You have a gun. You use it for hunting. Good guy. Bad guy uses it for something else. To capture bad guy, big guns needed. Bigger bad guys use bigger guns for something else. And I have to suffer through security.

Anyway, what I meant was, I don't enjoy the intense security at airports, but I still go through it. I suffer a loss of my enjoyment/comfort. Wouldn't that apply to your case?

I don't really understand what you are trying to say.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Indophile
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3/25/2011 2:22:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 2:05:04 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 3/25/2011 1:53:49 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 1:47:13 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 3/25/2011 1:40:35 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 1:08:24 PM, lewis20 wrote:
I enjoy hunting and shooting skeet

I don't enjoy the intense security at airports

Whats that have to do with me owning a gun. 911 was done with box cutters.

You have a gun. You use it for hunting. Good guy. Bad guy uses it for something else. To capture bad guy, big guns needed. Bigger bad guys use bigger guns for something else. And I have to suffer through security.

Anyway, what I meant was, I don't enjoy the intense security at airports, but I still go through it. I suffer a loss of my enjoyment/comfort. Wouldn't that apply to your case?

I don't really understand what you are trying to say.

In your case, people would use guns only to hunt/shoot skeet. If they are rational/not bad. But this is not the case. Hence, bad things can be done with guns. So, what is the advantage/disadvantage ratio of making guns and selling it to people?

I enjoy going through airports without any fuss and personal invasion. But I'm not allowed to do it. Because of bad people using "guns" in unintended ways. Hence, my aversion to guns in the hands of "normal" people. (You never know when they will stop being normal).

And consequently, why I think your argument that you use guns to hunt/shoot skeet, should not be a reason for guns being sold to normal people. You can give it up :)
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,282
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3/25/2011 2:35:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 2:22:43 PM, Indophile wrote:

I don't really understand what you are trying to say.

In your case, people would use guns only to hunt/shoot skeet. If they are rational/not bad. But this is not the case. Hence, bad things can be done with guns. So, what is the advantage/disadvantage ratio of making guns and selling it to people?

I enjoy going through airports without any fuss and personal invasion. But I'm not allowed to do it. Because of bad people using "guns" in unintended ways. Hence, my aversion to guns in the hands of "normal" people. (You never know when they will stop being normal).

And consequently, why I think your argument that you use guns to hunt/shoot skeet, should not be a reason for guns being sold to normal people. You can give it up :)

I have the right to bear box-cutters.
What flight are you going to take in the next year?
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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3/25/2011 2:39:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 2:35:16 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:22:43 PM, Indophile wrote:

I don't really understand what you are trying to say.

In your case, people would use guns only to hunt/shoot skeet. If they are rational/not bad. But this is not the case. Hence, bad things can be done with guns. So, what is the advantage/disadvantage ratio of making guns and selling it to people?

I enjoy going through airports without any fuss and personal invasion. But I'm not allowed to do it. Because of bad people using "guns" in unintended ways. Hence, my aversion to guns in the hands of "normal" people. (You never know when they will stop being normal).

And consequently, why I think your argument that you use guns to hunt/shoot skeet, should not be a reason for guns being sold to normal people. You can give it up :)

I have the right to bear box-cutters.
What flight are you going to take in the next year?

Of course you have the right to bear box-cutters. Did I deny it? I just want you to not exercise that right. Think a bit about poor us, standing through airport security.

I don't know about next year, but am certainly flying a lot this year.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,282
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3/25/2011 2:40:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 2:39:07 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:35:16 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:22:43 PM, Indophile wrote:

I don't really understand what you are trying to say.

In your case, people would use guns only to hunt/shoot skeet. If they are rational/not bad. But this is not the case. Hence, bad things can be done with guns. So, what is the advantage/disadvantage ratio of making guns and selling it to people?

I enjoy going through airports without any fuss and personal invasion. But I'm not allowed to do it. Because of bad people using "guns" in unintended ways. Hence, my aversion to guns in the hands of "normal" people. (You never know when they will stop being normal).

And consequently, why I think your argument that you use guns to hunt/shoot skeet, should not be a reason for guns being sold to normal people. You can give it up :)

I have the right to bear box-cutters.
What flight are you going to take in the next year?

Of course you have the right to bear box-cutters. Did I deny it? I just want you to not exercise that right. Think a bit about poor us, standing through airport security.

I don't know about next year, but am certainly flying a lot this year.

So you want a voluntary ban on all items deemed dangerous on the TSA list?
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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3/25/2011 2:45:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 2:40:27 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:39:07 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:35:16 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:22:43 PM, Indophile wrote:

I don't really understand what you are trying to say.

In your case, people would use guns only to hunt/shoot skeet. If they are rational/not bad. But this is not the case. Hence, bad things can be done with guns. So, what is the advantage/disadvantage ratio of making guns and selling it to people?

I enjoy going through airports without any fuss and personal invasion. But I'm not allowed to do it. Because of bad people using "guns" in unintended ways. Hence, my aversion to guns in the hands of "normal" people. (You never know when they will stop being normal).

And consequently, why I think your argument that you use guns to hunt/shoot skeet, should not be a reason for guns being sold to normal people. You can give it up :)

I have the right to bear box-cutters.
What flight are you going to take in the next year?

Of course you have the right to bear box-cutters. Did I deny it? I just want you to not exercise that right. Think a bit about poor us, standing through airport security.

I don't know about next year, but am certainly flying a lot this year.

So you want a voluntary ban on all items deemed dangerous on the TSA list?

Sounds extreme, doesn't it? But that's what I have to endure. All I carry nowadays is a laptop bag and a carry-on. Like it or not, all those things have been banned for me. At least if I value my time.

So yeah, come to think about it, it would be nice if everybody else also followed my policy and save all of us a bunch of time.

Do you carry items deemed dangerous on the TSA list when you fly?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,282
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3/25/2011 2:50:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 2:45:59 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:40:27 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:39:07 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:35:16 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:22:43 PM, Indophile wrote:

I don't really understand what you are trying to say.

In your case, people would use guns only to hunt/shoot skeet. If they are rational/not bad. But this is not the case. Hence, bad things can be done with guns. So, what is the advantage/disadvantage ratio of making guns and selling it to people?

I enjoy going through airports without any fuss and personal invasion. But I'm not allowed to do it. Because of bad people using "guns" in unintended ways. Hence, my aversion to guns in the hands of "normal" people. (You never know when they will stop being normal).

And consequently, why I think your argument that you use guns to hunt/shoot skeet, should not be a reason for guns being sold to normal people. You can give it up :)

I have the right to bear box-cutters.
What flight are you going to take in the next year?

Of course you have the right to bear box-cutters. Did I deny it? I just want you to not exercise that right. Think a bit about poor us, standing through airport security.

I don't know about next year, but am certainly flying a lot this year.

So you want a voluntary ban on all items deemed dangerous on the TSA list?

Sounds extreme, doesn't it? But that's what I have to endure. All I carry nowadays is a laptop bag and a carry-on. Like it or not, all those things have been banned for me. At least if I value my time.

So yeah, come to think about it, it would be nice if everybody else also followed my policy and save all of us a bunch of time.

Do you carry items deemed dangerous on the TSA list when you fly?

It's not a matter of carrying them when you fly, To get rid of the TSA, you have to get rid of either the possibility of the objects coming to a plane, or the possibility someone will use them. Otherwise, you will have to just take calculated casualties like we do with many aspects of our life (driving alongside crazy people for example)
Indophile
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3/25/2011 2:57:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 2:50:50 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:45:59 PM, Indophile wrote:

It's not a matter of carrying them when you fly, To get rid of the TSA, you have to get rid of either the possibility of the objects coming to a plane, or the possibility someone will use them. Otherwise, you will have to just take calculated casualties like we do with many aspects of our life (driving alongside crazy people for example)

Yes. I would like to go further. Limit items that enable crazy people to create heavy damage, especially if said items have obvious disadvantages outweighing the advantages.

If you actually think about it, how many good reasons can you come up with for normal lay people having guns? Especially when we see that the consequences of using guns on people also cause untold psychological damage.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Greyparrot
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3/25/2011 3:03:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 2:57:45 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:50:50 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:45:59 PM, Indophile wrote:

It's not a matter of carrying them when you fly, To get rid of the TSA, you have to get rid of either the possibility of the objects coming to a plane, or the possibility someone will use them. Otherwise, you will have to just take calculated casualties like we do with many aspects of our life (driving alongside crazy people for example)

Yes. I would like to go further. Limit items that enable crazy people to create heavy damage, especially if said items have obvious disadvantages outweighing the advantages.

If you actually think about it, how many good reasons can you come up with for normal lay people having guns? Especially when we see that the consequences of using guns on people also cause untold psychological damage.

American Idol causes more psychological damage than Lewis's guns.
Indophile
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3/25/2011 3:05:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 3:03:07 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:57:45 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:50:50 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:45:59 PM, Indophile wrote:

It's not a matter of carrying them when you fly, To get rid of the TSA, you have to get rid of either the possibility of the objects coming to a plane, or the possibility someone will use them. Otherwise, you will have to just take calculated casualties like we do with many aspects of our life (driving alongside crazy people for example)

Yes. I would like to go further. Limit items that enable crazy people to create heavy damage, especially if said items have obvious disadvantages outweighing the advantages.

If you actually think about it, how many good reasons can you come up with for normal lay people having guns? Especially when we see that the consequences of using guns on people also cause untold psychological damage.

American Idol causes more psychological damage than Lewis's guns.

First cars, next American Idol? What's next? Justin Bieber? Seriously.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/25/2011 3:06:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 3:03:07 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:57:45 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:50:50 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:45:59 PM, Indophile wrote:

It's not a matter of carrying them when you fly, To get rid of the TSA, you have to get rid of either the possibility of the objects coming to a plane, or the possibility someone will use them. Otherwise, you will have to just take calculated casualties like we do with many aspects of our life (driving alongside crazy people for example)

Yes. I would like to go further. Limit items that enable crazy people to create heavy damage, especially if said items have obvious disadvantages outweighing the advantages.

If you actually think about it, how many good reasons can you come up with for normal lay people having guns? Especially when we see that the consequences of using guns on people also cause untold psychological damage.

American Idol causes more psychological damage than Lewis's guns.

Let's ban that too then.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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3/25/2011 3:14:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 3:07:25 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Well if you know me, I am known for shotgunning scattered replies!

?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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3/25/2011 3:15:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 3:06:59 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/25/2011 3:03:07 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:57:45 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:50:50 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:45:59 PM, Indophile wrote:

It's not a matter of carrying them when you fly, To get rid of the TSA, you have to get rid of either the possibility of the objects coming to a plane, or the possibility someone will use them. Otherwise, you will have to just take calculated casualties like we do with many aspects of our life (driving alongside crazy people for example)

Yes. I would like to go further. Limit items that enable crazy people to create heavy damage, especially if said items have obvious disadvantages outweighing the advantages.

If you actually think about it, how many good reasons can you come up with for normal lay people having guns? Especially when we see that the consequences of using guns on people also cause untold psychological damage.

American Idol causes more psychological damage than Lewis's guns.

Let's ban that too then.

Ok, I'll bite the bullet. Can American Idol do anything else other than kill/cause psychological damage? Can guns do anything else other than kill/cause psychological damage?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Ore_Ele
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3/25/2011 3:18:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 3:15:29 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 3:06:59 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/25/2011 3:03:07 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:57:45 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:50:50 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2011 2:45:59 PM, Indophile wrote:

It's not a matter of carrying them when you fly, To get rid of the TSA, you have to get rid of either the possibility of the objects coming to a plane, or the possibility someone will use them. Otherwise, you will have to just take calculated casualties like we do with many aspects of our life (driving alongside crazy people for example)

Yes. I would like to go further. Limit items that enable crazy people to create heavy damage, especially if said items have obvious disadvantages outweighing the advantages.

If you actually think about it, how many good reasons can you come up with for normal lay people having guns? Especially when we see that the consequences of using guns on people also cause untold psychological damage.

American Idol causes more psychological damage than Lewis's guns.

Let's ban that too then.

Ok, I'll bite the bullet. Can American Idol do anything else other than kill/cause psychological damage? Can guns do anything else other than kill/cause psychological damage?

I'd actually argue that american idol is not capible of causing the same degree of harm that guns can. I don't know anyone that got PTSD from watching or participating on american idol.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
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3/25/2011 3:19:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 3:18:00 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Is there really a tool in this world that has only one use?

Probably not.

I think you mean to ask "is there really any tool in this world that cannot be misued to cause harm?"
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Greyparrot
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3/25/2011 3:19:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 3:18:04 PM, OreEle wrote:

I'd actually argue that american idol is not capible of causing the same degree of harm that guns can. I don't know anyone that got PTSD from watching or participating on american idol.

Do one billion smaller cases of trauma take backstage to a few isolated cases of PTSD?
Indophile
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3/25/2011 3:19:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 3:18:00 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Is there really a tool in this world that has only one use?

Yes. Guns.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
mattrodstrom
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3/25/2011 3:19:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 3:15:29 PM, Indophile wrote:
Ok, I'll bite the bullet. Can American Idol do anything else other than kill/cause psychological damage? Can guns do anything else other than kill/cause psychological damage?

They can Kill in order to prevent Other killing or psych damage...
(like killing the dude who looks like they might harm people I care about)

They can also serve as a deterrent to prevent those things w/o actually being used as well.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Greyparrot
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3/25/2011 3:20:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/25/2011 3:19:34 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/25/2011 3:18:00 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Is there really a tool in this world that has only one use?

Yes. Guns.

skeet.