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What happened to all the real Jews?

innomen
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5/20/2011 4:35:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Seriously, I grew up in a town that was about 1/5 Jewish, and my best friend was Jewish. I had lots of Jewish friends who went to Hebrew school and kept kosher, bar mitzvah, bat mitzvah etc. and really seemed to practice their religion. They also were big defenders of Israel. I still spend a lot of time in that town, and have friends who are (I guess) considered Jewish, but really seem to have nothing that would make you think they were Jewish other than their name and heritage. They are amongst the most anti-Israel people I know, more so than most Christians I know. They are liberal, and it seems their liberal ideology has easily trumped their religion. I still see the occasional couple walking on Saturdays to temple, but really that's a rarity now. They're incredibly gay friendly, as long as its not one of their kids, and are pleasant enough. It seems like something happened between then and now, where Jews have sort of all converted to the democratic party.

There was a time when a president would come out and proclaim that the borders of Israel should revert back to 1967, and it would be received by overwhelming outrage, now just support by the American Jews.
Rob1_Billion
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5/20/2011 4:43:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't identify Jews out of the crowd as well. I have no idea how many I see around... As far as someone who is obviously Jewish, I would see far more Asian-Indians, American-Indians, Blacks, Mexicans, and Eastern-Asians than Jews. But again, these creeds/races/whatever are much more identifiable so that's probably the only reason why... Green Bay is pretty diverse as well and has large populations of all of these races.
kfc
OMGJustinBieber
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5/20/2011 4:56:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
This is a common complaint in the Jewish community. You would be hard pressed in my circle of friends to find a non-Zionist Jew, but they are certainly out there and I feel I'm getting into controversial territory here. A lot of the more conservative Jews will accuse the ultra-liberal Jews of basically disowning their religion in favor of modernism or liberal ideas, and this is nothing new in jewish tradition. Jews in general tend to lean left, but it seem that radicalized Jews are a different issue.

The conservative, old guard Jewish community is troubled. Jews are abandoning the religion at high rates, inter-marrying, atheism, whatever. There is a long Jewish tradition of being involved in higher education, which is definitely left of center as a whole. Many Jews want to be on the forefront of progressive thought, and it seems what they'll adopt is that cultural expectation of intellectualism and in doing so abandon their religious commitments.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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5/20/2011 6:42:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have tons of Jewish friends and not one of them is Orthodox. They're all Reformed Jews, whether left or right leaning. But most of them don't seem to care too much about their Jewish "heritage," and none of them seem to care much about Israel, or at least, no more than other nations.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
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5/20/2011 7:33:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/20/2011 4:35:46 PM, innomen wrote:
Seriously, I grew up in a town that was about 1/5 Jewish, and my best friend was Jewish. I had lots of Jewish friends who went to Hebrew school and kept kosher, bar mitzvah, bat mitzvah etc. and really seemed to practice their religion. They also were big defenders of Israel. I still spend a lot of time in that town, and have friends who are (I guess) considered Jewish, but really seem to have nothing that would make you think they were Jewish other than their name and heritage. They are amongst the most anti-Israel people I know, more so than most Christians I know. They are liberal, and it seems their liberal ideology has easily trumped their religion. I still see the occasional couple walking on Saturdays to temple, but really that's a rarity now. They're incredibly gay friendly, as long as its not one of their kids, and are pleasant enough. It seems like something happened between then and now, where Jews have sort of all converted to the democratic party.

There was a time when a president would come out and proclaim that the borders of Israel should revert back to 1967, and it would be received by overwhelming outrage, now just support by the American Jews.

Democratic Jews are definitely anti Zionist
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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5/20/2011 9:40:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
My ex is like the only Jew I know and he's pretty hardcore Zionist(he's actually in Israel right now). Despite being atheist himself he does tend to feel that more liberal Jews are abandoning their heritage, the Anti-Zionist Jews in particular. He has even went as far as calling them "traitors" and "self-hating Jews". It seems kinda weird coming from him, considering he's not exactly devout himself, being an atheist. He just recently stopped eating pork because of me, lol. Maybe after being in Israel he'll become more committed to Judaism, who knows. He has been reading Kahane which seems to be encouraging him, but Kahane was also ultra nationalistic...
darkkermit
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5/20/2011 10:47:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yep, I'm one of those anti-zionist fake jew. My brother is also on the nonreligious side.

Judiasm as a religion just plain sucks though. You go to temple and read prayers in a funky language (hebrew) where all the letters are different, and I don't know the language. Oh, plus the old testament is lamer then the new testament. And plus we don't have a hell, so there's no real incentive to be religious. Oh, and keeping kosher sucks as well.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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5/20/2011 11:27:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/20/2011 9:40:17 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
My ex is like the only Jew I know and he's pretty hardcore Zionist(he's actually in Israel right now). Despite being atheist himself he does tend to feel that more liberal Jews are abandoning their heritage, the Anti-Zionist Jews in particular. He has even went as far as calling them "traitors" and "self-hating Jews". It seems kinda weird coming from him, considering he's not exactly devout himself, being an atheist. He just recently stopped eating pork because of me, lol. Maybe after being in Israel he'll become more committed to Judaism, who knows. He has been reading Kahane which seems to be encouraging him, but Kahane was also ultra nationalistic...

A lot of Jews are atheists, it really doesn't mean much IMO. In my experience your ex is perfectly normal. There's a world of difference between being a Jewish atheist and not supporting Israel. Not supporting Israel will set you apart in the Jewish community - you will be outsider.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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5/21/2011 7:47:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/20/2011 10:47:36 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Yep, I'm one of those anti-zionist fake jew. My brother is also on the nonreligious side.:

Stone them!!!! Stone the self-loathing Jews!!!!
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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5/21/2011 7:50:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 7:09:13 AM, feverish wrote:
Zionism has eff all to do with religion really, it's pure politics.:

It's a mish-mash of politics, religion, and culture.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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5/21/2011 4:58:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
With regards to the OP, it sounds like the general trend with many religions in developed countries (ie. Islam might be growing, but that's in the Middle East) where people relax their religious principles in easier lives. After all, religion can be seen as this reward after a troubled life or as something that soothes and puts people at peace. However, in modern society because of higher levels of general enjoyment (or rather potential) and such, people begin to question whether they need religion.

This also has to do with the rise of science. I know many people at my school who are atheists because of things like 'if there's so many gods, why should any one be real?' Essentially, to save a long discussion, people have now advanced to the point where they meet a series of questions that make a person with no other knowledge support atheism. They don't go research a bit deeper and dispel these type of questions.

I hope the above was clear, yet essentially, this isn't just happening to the Jews.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
brian_eggleston
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5/22/2011 7:50:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/20/2011 4:35:46 PM, innomen wrote:
Seriously, I grew up in a town that was about 1/5 Jewish, and my best friend was Jewish. I had lots of Jewish friends who went to Hebrew school and kept kosher, bar mitzvah, bat mitzvah etc. and really seemed to practice their religion. They also were big defenders of Israel. I still spend a lot of time in that town, and have friends who are (I guess) considered Jewish, but really seem to have nothing that would make you think they were Jewish other than their name and heritage. They are amongst the most anti-Israel people I know, more so than most Christians I know. They are liberal, and it seems their liberal ideology has easily trumped their religion. I still see the occasional couple walking on Saturdays to temple, but really that's a rarity now. They're incredibly gay friendly, as long as its not one of their kids, and are pleasant enough. It seems like something happened between then and now, where Jews have sort of all converted to the democratic party.

There was a time when a president would come out and proclaim that the borders of Israel should revert back to 1967, and it would be received by overwhelming outrage, now just support by the American Jews.

'Judaism' does not equate to 'Zionism' and, despite the assertions of extreme right-wing Jewish hardliners, Jews who oppose illegal Israeli land-grabs and the state-sponsored persecution of Arabs, are not "self-hating Jews".
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
Greyparrot
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5/22/2011 1:57:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/22/2011 7:50:43 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:

'Judaism' does not equate to 'Zionism' and, despite the assertions of extreme right-wing Jewish hardliners, Jews who oppose illegal Israeli land-grabs and the state-sponsored persecution of Arabs, are not "self-hating Jews".

Who mobilized troops first? Israel or Nasser?

http://arabterrorism.tripod.com...

And on the matter of war and the law...
"Stop quoting the law, we
have swords." Pompey
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/22/2011 3:24:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/22/2011 7:50:43 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 5/20/2011 4:35:46 PM, innomen wrote:
Seriously, I grew up in a town that was about 1/5 Jewish, and my best friend was Jewish. I had lots of Jewish friends who went to Hebrew school and kept kosher, bar mitzvah, bat mitzvah etc. and really seemed to practice their religion. They also were big defenders of Israel. I still spend a lot of time in that town, and have friends who are (I guess) considered Jewish, but really seem to have nothing that would make you think they were Jewish other than their name and heritage. They are amongst the most anti-Israel people I know, more so than most Christians I know. They are liberal, and it seems their liberal ideology has easily trumped their religion. I still see the occasional couple walking on Saturdays to temple, but really that's a rarity now. They're incredibly gay friendly, as long as its not one of their kids, and are pleasant enough. It seems like something happened between then and now, where Jews have sort of all converted to the democratic party.

There was a time when a president would come out and proclaim that the borders of Israel should revert back to 1967, and it would be received by overwhelming outrage, now just support by the American Jews.

'Judaism' does not equate to 'Zionism' and, despite the assertions of extreme right-wing Jewish hardliners, Jews who oppose illegal Israeli land-grabs and the state-sponsored persecution of Arabs, are not "self-hating Jews".

Those are the good Jews right? The ones who aren't really Jewish anymore.
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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5/23/2011 5:51:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
They became pimps.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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5/23/2011 12:14:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/22/2011 1:57:28 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/22/2011 7:50:43 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:

'Judaism' does not equate to 'Zionism' and, despite the assertions of extreme right-wing Jewish hardliners, Jews who oppose illegal Israeli land-grabs and the state-sponsored persecution of Arabs, are not "self-hating Jews".


Who mobilized troops first? Israel or Nasser?

http://arabterrorism.tripod.com...

And on the matter of war and the law...
"Stop quoting the law, we
have swords." Pompey

I was thinking more of the numerous Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank (that are 'home' to around 1/2 million Jews and are still being built) that are illegal under international law.
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
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5/23/2011 12:39:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 12:14:17 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 5/22/2011 1:57:28 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/22/2011 7:50:43 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:

'Judaism' does not equate to 'Zionism' and, despite the assertions of extreme right-wing Jewish hardliners, Jews who oppose illegal Israeli land-grabs and the state-sponsored persecution of Arabs, are not "self-hating Jews".


Who mobilized troops first? Israel or Nasser?

http://arabterrorism.tripod.com...

And on the matter of war and the law...
"Stop quoting the law, we
have swords." Pompey

I was thinking more of the numerous Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank (that are 'home' to around 1/2 million Jews and are still being built) that are illegal under international law.

You're talking about U.N resolution 242? Do you really think International Law is objective, non-biased, and free from politics? There is a reason USA dismissed resolution 242.
Israel won the 1967 war, if I recall correctly. They get to choose the terms, not the UN, unless of course I am wrong and it was the international courts that actually won the 1967 war.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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5/23/2011 1:42:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/20/2011 11:27:55 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:

Not supporting Israel will set you apart in the Jewish community - you will be outsider.

That is true actually. From my experience, most Anti-Israel Jews are frowned upon by Zionist Jews. Even just using my example my ex considers them to be self-hating Jews who are just trying to escape from Anti-Semitism(to him the whole Anti-Israel thing is Anti-Semitic).
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/23/2011 1:58:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 1:42:35 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/20/2011 11:27:55 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:

Not supporting Israel will set you apart in the Jewish community - you will be outsider.

That is true actually. From my experience, most Anti-Israel Jews are frowned upon by Zionist Jews. Even just using my example my ex considers them to be self-hating Jews who are just trying to escape from Anti-Semitism(to him the whole Anti-Israel thing is Anti-Semitic).

My point is, i just don't see any Zionist Jews anymore. I sort of cringe over that word, because it isn't accurate in what i was getting at. I see largely VERY secular if not atheist Jews who are anti Israel. I would be interested in exploring the self-hating part though, as i believe there is far more self-hatred amongst minorities than anyone is willing to acknowledge. I know this is incredibly true of homosexuals.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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5/23/2011 2:08:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 1:58:54 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/23/2011 1:42:35 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/20/2011 11:27:55 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:

Not supporting Israel will set you apart in the Jewish community - you will be outsider.

That is true actually. From my experience, most Anti-Israel Jews are frowned upon by Zionist Jews. Even just using my example my ex considers them to be self-hating Jews who are just trying to escape from Anti-Semitism(to him the whole Anti-Israel thing is Anti-Semitic).

My point is, i just don't see any Zionist Jews anymore. I sort of cringe over that word, because it isn't accurate in what i was getting at. I see largely VERY secular if not atheist Jews who are anti Israel. I would be interested in exploring the self-hating part though, as i believe there is far more self-hatred amongst minorities than anyone is willing to acknowledge. I know this is incredibly true of homosexuals.

That's weird considering my ex is an atheist jew and zionist. Almost every Jew I have ever talked to has been zionist as well regardless of religious views. Then again, there's like literally no Jews where I live so most of these encounters have been online.
Ore_Ele
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5/23/2011 2:18:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 2:01:25 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
And Germans who opposed the Nazis in the 1930's and 40's were self-hating Germans?

According to the Nazis, they were.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
twsurber
Posts: 505
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5/23/2011 2:37:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
There are too many ways to define real Jew, lots of room for interpretation.

Every group considers themselves Jews but may also consider other Jewish groups to not be Jewish at all. As our Rabbi jokes, 2 Jews equals 3 opinions.

There are Orthodox, Hassidic, Reformed, Conservative, and Messianic in addition to others that I have unintentionally left out. There are Yids, Yekkes, Diaspora, and who knows what all else.

I am a grafted in Messianic Jew. Many would say that doesn't count, and I can see their point.

I agree that Zionism is more of a political ideology than a religious one. Most Zionists believe that Eretz Israel was given to the Jews by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
OMGJustinBieber
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5/23/2011 2:51:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 1:58:54 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/23/2011 1:42:35 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/20/2011 11:27:55 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:

Not supporting Israel will set you apart in the Jewish community - you will be outsider.

That is true actually. From my experience, most Anti-Israel Jews are frowned upon by Zionist Jews. Even just using my example my ex considers them to be self-hating Jews who are just trying to escape from Anti-Semitism(to him the whole Anti-Israel thing is Anti-Semitic).

My point is, i just don't see any Zionist Jews anymore. I sort of cringe over that word, because it isn't accurate in what i was getting at. I see largely VERY secular if not atheist Jews who are anti Israel. I would be interested in exploring the self-hating part though, as i believe there is far more self-hatred amongst minorities than anyone is willing to acknowledge. I know this is incredibly true of homosexuals.

This is a touchy subject for Jews because whenever a Jew labels those who are anti-Zionists as "self hating" it can seen as dubious. One doesn't need to support Israel to be a Jew, and calling an anti-Zionist Jew "self hating" makes a strong assumption about his psychological state. Additionally, many less religious Jews are uncomfortable with the idea that their religion should be tied to a political decision.

There's also a big difference between saying "the state should never have been made in the first place" and "the Israeli Jews should get up and leave." I would have to judge it on a case by case basis, and look for emotional cues.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/23/2011 3:27:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 2:51:12 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 5/23/2011 1:58:54 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/23/2011 1:42:35 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/20/2011 11:27:55 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:

Not supporting Israel will set you apart in the Jewish community - you will be outsider.

That is true actually. From my experience, most Anti-Israel Jews are frowned upon by Zionist Jews. Even just using my example my ex considers them to be self-hating Jews who are just trying to escape from Anti-Semitism(to him the whole Anti-Israel thing is Anti-Semitic).

My point is, i just don't see any Zionist Jews anymore. I sort of cringe over that word, because it isn't accurate in what i was getting at. I see largely VERY secular if not atheist Jews who are anti Israel. I would be interested in exploring the self-hating part though, as i believe there is far more self-hatred amongst minorities than anyone is willing to acknowledge. I know this is incredibly true of homosexuals.

This is a touchy subject for Jews because whenever a Jew labels those who are anti-Zionists as "self hating" it can seen as dubious. One doesn't need to support Israel to be a Jew, and calling an anti-Zionist Jew "self hating" makes a strong assumption about his psychological state. Additionally, many less religious Jews are uncomfortable with the idea that their religion should be tied to a political decision.

There's also a big difference between saying "the state should never have been made in the first place" and "the Israeli Jews should get up and leave." I would have to judge it on a case by case basis, and look for emotional cues.

Then why so often is it actually connected to the religiousness of the Jew. The ones who are most connected to Israel are also the most religious, and conversely those who are most rejecting of Israel are the least devout in both faith and religious practice.

The "strong assumption" isn't really such, but rather a sneaky suspicion.
OMGJustinBieber
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5/23/2011 6:25:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 3:27:44 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/23/2011 2:51:12 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 5/23/2011 1:58:54 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/23/2011 1:42:35 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/20/2011 11:27:55 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:

Not supporting Israel will set you apart in the Jewish community - you will be outsider.

That is true actually. From my experience, most Anti-Israel Jews are frowned upon by Zionist Jews. Even just using my example my ex considers them to be self-hating Jews who are just trying to escape from Anti-Semitism(to him the whole Anti-Israel thing is Anti-Semitic).

My point is, i just don't see any Zionist Jews anymore. I sort of cringe over that word, because it isn't accurate in what i was getting at. I see largely VERY secular if not atheist Jews who are anti Israel. I would be interested in exploring the self-hating part though, as i believe there is far more self-hatred amongst minorities than anyone is willing to acknowledge. I know this is incredibly true of homosexuals.

This is a touchy subject for Jews because whenever a Jew labels those who are anti-Zionists as "self hating" it can seen as dubious. One doesn't need to support Israel to be a Jew, and calling an anti-Zionist Jew "self hating" makes a strong assumption about his psychological state. Additionally, many less religious Jews are uncomfortable with the idea that their religion should be tied to a political decision.

There's also a big difference between saying "the state should never have been made in the first place" and "the Israeli Jews should get up and leave." I would have to judge it on a case by case basis, and look for emotional cues.

Then why so often is it actually connected to the religiousness of the Jew. The ones who are most connected to Israel are also the most religious, and conversely those who are most rejecting of Israel are the least devout in both faith and religious practice.

The "strong assumption" isn't really such, but rather a sneaky suspicion.

There are actually ultra-orthodox groups in Israel that are fervently anti-Zionist. There is diversity in Jewish thought, among religious Jews, on the issue of Zionism.

Identifying a self-hating Jew is not easy. I was thinking about this a while and perhaps the best question to ask would be what his or her opinion on Judaism, or what it means to be Jewish is.