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Defamation in the United States

CosmicAlfonzo
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6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?

I'd be interested in hearing what other people think about this.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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6/6/2011 12:37:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?

I'd be interested in hearing what other people think about this.

Issuing false statements is counterproductive, If you are going to state something be truthful about it, and also this has already been incorporated in the first amendment if you read it properly.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/6/2011 12:49:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 12:37:25 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
At 6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?

I'd be interested in hearing what other people think about this.

Issuing false statements is counterproductive, If you are going to state something be truthful about it,

While agree with this, it doesn't really matter.

and also this has already been incorporated in the first amendment if you read it properly.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Where?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/6/2011 3:26:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I believe that originally it was thought that the defamation of character had to have a direct negative impact on one's livelihood, or perhaps public standing in a community. If you simply call someone a name, i don't think that constitutes an actionable offense. However, if you have unjustly impacted someone's reputation to the point where it has a real impact on their life, particularly financially, then there is recourse.

There is a disturbing trend toward having laws so people don't have their feelings hurt; which is sad at so many levels.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/6/2011 3:37:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Believe it or not, I have had my life effected tremendously by defamation. A few times actually.

That said, I still don't think there should be laws against it.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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6/6/2011 9:34:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 12:49:34 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/6/2011 12:37:25 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
At 6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?

I'd be interested in hearing what other people think about this.

Issuing false statements is counterproductive, If you are going to state something be truthful about it,

While agree with this, it doesn't really matter.

and also this has already been incorporated in the first amendment if you read it properly.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Where?

Sorry man I reread and you are right, it is not there but look at these:
http://faculty.ncwc.edu...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Hardcore-Racist
Posts: 12
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6/6/2011 11:35:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?
Well, me being a National Socialist, and a racist, I can see where you are coming from. I slander and libel others all the time, and everyone gets viciously mad at me. I simply don't understand it.

I'd be interested in hearing what other people think about this.

I agree with the fact that people should be allowed to voice their opinions, no matter how "disturbing" some may interpret it. It is a clear violation of the first amendment.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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6/6/2011 11:41:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?

It is a violation of the first amendment. We simply accept that violation because it allows for better safety. Personally, I don't care much for the constitution to begin with, and if the entire arguement against something is "it's against the constitution," that is an appeal to authority, and so a logical fallacy.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/6/2011 2:15:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 11:41:55 AM, OreEle wrote:
At 6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?

It is a violation of the first amendment. We simply accept that violation because it allows for better safety. Personally, I don't care much for the constitution to begin with, and if the entire arguement against something is "it's against the constitution," that is an appeal to authority, and so a logical fallacy.

Technically it isn't a logical fallacy if we are discussing law... If the law says that you can't do something, and you do it, the law has been violated. The law says that no laws can be made restricting your ability to say WHATEVER the hell you want. If a law comes in to pass that restricts you from saying something, it is violating the first law.

If the Bill of Rights in particular is enforced, it is a mighty handy document. Unfortunately, well...

My reasons for being against the restriction of free speech has nothing to do with the first amendment, I'm just mighty glad it supports my position.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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6/6/2011 2:29:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?

I'd be interested in hearing what other people think about this.
So which one is illegal, the gossip and slander women master or just telling e.g., a Chinese that he is yellow and doesn't belong in USA? I'm fairly sure it's not the former.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/8/2011 2:47:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 3:37:29 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Believe it or not, I have had my life effected tremendously by defamation. A few times actually.

That said, I still don't think there should be laws against it.

Is there measurable damage done to you? Are the allegations or assertions against you false? These are considered an assault to one's character and an unjustified interference to one's pursuit of happiness.

Freedom of speech was quickly seen as not absolute with Adams' alien and sedition act, which was horribly anti free speech, and counter the values of freedom of expression.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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6/8/2011 11:05:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 2:15:55 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/6/2011 11:41:55 AM, OreEle wrote:
At 6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?

It is a violation of the first amendment. We simply accept that violation because it allows for better safety. Personally, I don't care much for the constitution to begin with, and if the entire arguement against something is "it's against the constitution," that is an appeal to authority, and so a logical fallacy.

Technically it isn't a logical fallacy if we are discussing law... If the law says that you can't do something, and you do it, the law has been violated. The law says that no laws can be made restricting your ability to say WHATEVER the hell you want. If a law comes in to pass that restricts you from saying something, it is violating the first law.

If the Bill of Rights in particular is enforced, it is a mighty handy document. Unfortunately, well...

My reasons for being against the restriction of free speech has nothing to do with the first amendment, I'm just mighty glad it supports my position.

True, but when talking about what "should" or "should not," those are moral statements, not legal ones. Like if I point out that maraijuana is illegal, that is no argument that it "should" be illegal. So if we are talking about if certain speech acts (which are protected by free speech) should be allowed or not, simply refering to the constitution is not a solid argument (since the constitution is just another law, a higher one, but still a law which should be questioned).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/8/2011 12:15:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/8/2011 11:05:15 AM, OreEle wrote:
At 6/6/2011 2:15:55 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/6/2011 11:41:55 AM, OreEle wrote:
At 6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?

It is a violation of the first amendment. We simply accept that violation because it allows for better safety. Personally, I don't care much for the constitution to begin with, and if the entire arguement against something is "it's against the constitution," that is an appeal to authority, and so a logical fallacy.

Technically it isn't a logical fallacy if we are discussing law... If the law says that you can't do something, and you do it, the law has been violated. The law says that no laws can be made restricting your ability to say WHATEVER the hell you want. If a law comes in to pass that restricts you from saying something, it is violating the first law.

If the Bill of Rights in particular is enforced, it is a mighty handy document. Unfortunately, well...

My reasons for being against the restriction of free speech has nothing to do with the first amendment, I'm just mighty glad it supports my position.

True, but when talking about what "should" or "should not," those are moral statements, not legal ones. Like if I point out that maraijuana is illegal, that is no argument that it "should" be illegal. So if we are talking about if certain speech acts (which are protected by free speech) should be allowed or not, simply refering to the constitution is not a solid argument (since the constitution is just another law, a higher one, but still a law which should be questioned).

We're very obviously talking about legal issues here.

You say that laws should be questioned, is this a moral statement?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/8/2011 12:28:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/8/2011 2:47:59 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/6/2011 3:37:29 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Believe it or not, I have had my life effected tremendously by defamation. A few times actually.

That said, I still don't think there should be laws against it.

Is there measurable damage done to you? Are the allegations or assertions against you false? These are considered an assault to one's character and an unjustified interference to one's pursuit of happiness.


Yes to all, I'd rather not elaborate too much.

One instance was enough to where I had to leave town for a while.

It's what happens when people talk, and those listening are too stupid to put what they say through a "consider the source" filter. Gossipers are the bane of my existence.

Still, I'd rather a law was not put up because people are too stupid to use discernment.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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6/8/2011 12:31:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 3:37:29 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Believe it or not, I have had my life effected tremendously by defamation. A few times actually.

That said, I still don't think there should be laws against it.

"Hay guys, I hear that Alfonzo guy smokes pot."
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/8/2011 12:33:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 2:29:55 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?

I'd be interested in hearing what other people think about this.
So which one is illegal, the gossip and slander women master or just telling e.g., a Chinese that he is yellow and doesn't belong in USA? I'm fairly sure it's not the former.
The former can be illegal-- sort of. They bring a civil action though, not a criminal one. If you gossip, it is false, and a harm can be demonstrated, slander is a cause of action for recovery of damages against you. If you publish it and it does the same, it's libel.

It is not illegal in most contexts to tell a Chinese man that he is yellow and does not belong in the USA, though longstanding "fighting words" jurisprudence holds for an even sillier reason than defamation that it's not constitutionally protected.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/10/2011 3:01:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/8/2011 12:28:43 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/8/2011 2:47:59 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/6/2011 3:37:29 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Believe it or not, I have had my life effected tremendously by defamation. A few times actually.

That said, I still don't think there should be laws against it.

Is there measurable damage done to you? Are the allegations or assertions against you false? These are considered an assault to one's character and an unjustified interference to one's pursuit of happiness.


Yes to all, I'd rather not elaborate too much.

One instance was enough to where I had to leave town for a while.

It's what happens when people talk, and those listening are too stupid to put what they say through a "consider the source" filter. Gossipers are the bane of my existence.

Still, I'd rather a law was not put up because people are too stupid to use discernment.

The laws do serve a purpose in preventing the fabrication of stories that can greatly benefit one at the expense of another, particularly with regard to the press.
quarterexchange
Posts: 1,549
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6/10/2011 3:05:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?

I'd be interested in hearing what other people think about this.

You're also not allowed to point at a passenger and scream "BOMB!!!" on an airplane. There are necessary limitations to freedom of speech.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/11/2011 3:37:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/10/2011 3:05:37 PM, quarterexchange wrote:
At 6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?

I'd be interested in hearing what other people think about this.

You're also not allowed to point at a passenger and scream "BOMB!!!" on an airplane. There are necessary limitations to freedom of speech.

Technically, you could argue against that being constitutional as well.

I'm all for the legalization of yelling fire in a crowded theater.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
rarugged
Posts: 172
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6/11/2011 2:41:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/11/2011 3:37:37 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/10/2011 3:05:37 PM, quarterexchange wrote:
At 6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?

I'd be interested in hearing what other people think about this.

You're also not allowed to point at a passenger and scream "BOMB!!!" on an airplane. There are necessary limitations to freedom of speech.

Technically, you could argue against that being constitutional as well.

I'm all for the legalization of yelling fire in a crowded theater.

I think there has to exceptions for that. I mean, if you yell "Fire!" in a crowded movie theater and your action results in a stampede which further results in injury, property damage, or even death, the owner of the movie theater or other bystanders have the full right to bring charges against you.

I think what Justice Holmes tried to do in Schenck v. United States is try as much as possible to avoid such incidents. Hence, the "clear and present danger" test established.
If Jesus came back tomorrow, a cross would be the last thing he would want to see.
quarterexchange
Posts: 1,549
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6/11/2011 5:25:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/11/2011 3:37:37 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/10/2011 3:05:37 PM, quarterexchange wrote:
At 6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?

I'd be interested in hearing what other people think about this.

You're also not allowed to point at a passenger and scream "BOMB!!!" on an airplane. There are necessary limitations to freedom of speech.

Technically, you could argue against that being constitutional as well.

I'm all for the legalization of yelling fire in a crowded theater.

Yes well that's what differentiates you from sane people.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.
quarterexchange
Posts: 1,549
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6/11/2011 5:29:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/11/2011 3:37:37 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/10/2011 3:05:37 PM, quarterexchange wrote:
At 6/5/2011 11:45:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Why is it illegal to slander and libel others? How is this not a violation of the first amendment?

I'd be interested in hearing what other people think about this.

You're also not allowed to point at a passenger and scream "BOMB!!!" on an airplane. There are necessary limitations to freedom of speech.

Technically, you could argue against that being constitutional as well.

I'm all for the legalization of yelling fire in a crowded theater.

I don't know if you answered this in your head, but when you yell "fire" as a joke and in the ensuing stampede a dozen people get trampled to death and the theater gets trashed, who do you think would be responsible? Nobody?

I guarantee you that if pulled that stunt back in the time of the Founding Fathers you'd be hung or dragged in front of a firing squad.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.