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The Male Privilege Checklist

tvellalott
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6/16/2011 9:28:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://www.amptoons.com...

Erhm. What do we all think about this?
There is some truth to some of it but mostly it's baseless assertions made by some stupid, guilt-ridden man.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Brainmaster
Posts: 1,603
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6/16/2011 9:33:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 9:28:49 PM, tvellalott wrote:
http://www.amptoons.com...

Erhm. What do we all think about this?
There is some truth to some of it but mostly it's baseless assertions made by some stupid, guilt-ridden man.

wut
Kfc.
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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6/16/2011 9:50:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 9:28:49 PM, tvellalott wrote:
http://www.amptoons.com...

Erhm. What do we all think about this?
There is some truth to some of it but mostly it's baseless assertions made by some stupid, guilt-ridden man.

He's just trying to get women on his side so he can get laid.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
tvellalott
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6/16/2011 9:54:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 9:33:50 PM, Brainmaster wrote:
At 6/16/2011 9:28:49 PM, tvellalott wrote:
http://www.amptoons.com...

Erhm. What do we all think about this?
There is some truth to some of it but mostly it's baseless assertions made by some stupid, guilt-ridden man.

wut

wutwut?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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6/16/2011 10:35:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 9:28:49 PM, tvellalott wrote:
There is some truth to some of it but mostly it's baseless assertions made by some stupid, guilt-ridden man.

Are you serious? Point one out to me.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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6/16/2011 10:37:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 10:35:55 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 6/16/2011 9:28:49 PM, tvellalott wrote:
There is some truth to some of it but mostly it's baseless assertions made by some stupid, guilt-ridden man.

Are you serious? Point one out to me.

Edit: Point out which of these are the baseless assertions. That should be easy since you said "most."
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Puck
Posts: 6,457
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6/16/2011 10:40:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 10:36:28 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 6/16/2011 9:56:54 PM, Grape wrote:
Most, though not all, of these are valid.

Which aren't?

46. Once you've read the list. :P
mongeese
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6/16/2011 10:51:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It really doesn't help that while he points out these problems, he doesn't offer any solutions at all, which is practically impossible for many of the referenced problems based on biology (women have periods, women become pregnant, men are more violent).

And I really don't understand #31, becasue I can't think of any crimes that occur against men more often than women except perhaps gang shootings, and I would most definitely consider that a special interest before I considered domestic violence a special interest.

And #30... I've never heard of a woman being called a shrew, and men are still insulted when they're being jerks, but more rarely with that particular vocab.
Grape
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6/16/2011 10:52:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 10:36:28 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 6/16/2011 9:56:54 PM, Grape wrote:
Most, though not all, of these are valid.

Which aren't?

8 is true, but is not a disadvantage. It is generally good to be fearful of potentially dangerous situations. The potential for paranoia that this causes at worse evens it out.

31 is basically a disadvantage and the conclusion you are expected to draw from it is false. Women receive more, not less special protection from violent crime.

46 is false for obvious reasons.

The others are mostly true, though, just in my opinion, several of them are rather minor. 45, for example, is likely to be more closely related to individual personalities than gender roles.
mongeese
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6/16/2011 10:53:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Oh, and men tend to be more power-driven and dollar-motivated than women, and women are more likely to have maternity leave (duh), which makes the greater presence of men in high-power positions another consequence of biology.
Grape
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6/16/2011 10:56:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 10:53:10 PM, mongeese wrote:
Oh, and men tend to be more power-driven and dollar-motivated than women, and women are more likely to have maternity leave (duh), which makes the greater presence of men in high-power positions another consequence of biology.

Whether or not it's a consequence of biology is not being considered.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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6/16/2011 11:09:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 10:58:23 PM, mongeese wrote:
Hence the problem. How is it useful to point out a problem as a problem if there isn't really any way to fix it?
You can justify the reaction to the problem when it is identified.
Grape
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6/16/2011 11:12:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 10:58:23 PM, mongeese wrote:
Hence the problem. How is it useful to point out a problem as a problem if there isn't really any way to fix it?

No problem is necessarily unfixable. Everything ultimately depends on how radical you're willing to be.
Danielle
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6/16/2011 11:25:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 10:52:03 PM, Grape wrote:
8 is true, but is not a disadvantage. It is generally good to be fearful of potentially dangerous situations. The potential for paranoia that this causes at worse evens it out.

I completely disagree that it's not a disadvantage. It's called sexual terrorism. Educate yourself. I'm pretty sure that I'm scared sh!tless every single time I walk alone at night, as are most women (see: rape statistics... and actually don't even get me started on rape statistics, or the lack thereof) and that you and most guys aren't.

31 is basically a disadvantage and the conclusion you are expected to draw from it is false. Women receive more, not less special protection from violent crime.

Nowhere did it imply a disadvantage OR that women receive less protection. The fact that you read it that way is kind of absurd.

46 is false for obvious reasons.

That may be true for you, but most men are completely ignorant. See: tvellalott saying these are mostly "baseless assertions." I can't wait for him to point all of them out.

The others are mostly true, though, just in my opinion, several of them are rather minor. 45, for example, is likely to be more closely related to individual personalities than gender roles.

... No. They've done psychological studies on this indicating that it's not anecdotal.

At least you have the good sense to admit that you think upwards of 43 of these things are true.
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Danielle
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6/16/2011 11:26:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 10:58:23 PM, mongeese wrote:
Hence the problem. How is it useful to point out a problem as a problem if there isn't really any way to fix it?

Congratulations on completely missing the point.
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Danielle
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6/16/2011 11:29:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I love how upon pointing these things out, instead of saying "Oh wow I never thought of it that way" the typical first reaction of men is to completely discredit it, or point out why it's useless, or flat out say it's not true. I also love how you had to try really hard to find the slight few that you could possibly remotely discredit, as if it's supposed to somehow prove something in your favor.
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Mirza
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6/16/2011 11:33:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"21. If I'm careless with my financial affairs it won't be attributed to my sex."

I don't know, has the writer been outside his country?
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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6/16/2011 11:34:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 11:29:52 PM, Danielle wrote:
I love how upon pointing these things out, instead of saying "Oh wow I never thought of it that way" the typical first reaction of men is to completely discredit it, or point out why it's useless, or flat out say it's not true. I also love how you had to try really hard to find the slight few that you could possibly remotely discredit, as if it's supposed to somehow prove something in your favor.

I acknowledge these "privileges" here on an internet forum, but if one of my girl friends brought this up to me irl, I'd most likely do my best to discredit the list, especially in the presence of other males. Not sure how or why that happens. It's probably an ego thing.
mongeese
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6/16/2011 11:39:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 11:26:17 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 6/16/2011 10:58:23 PM, mongeese wrote:
Hence the problem. How is it useful to point out a problem as a problem if there isn't really any way to fix it?

Congratulations on completely missing the point.

The author's intentions appear to be to get men to give up their privileges, if the last pre-list sentence is any indication. The thing is, how can men give up psychological and biological urges? How could a discrimination argument possibly be effective against rapists? If there was a secondary point to the list, by all means, point it out.
Grape
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6/16/2011 11:45:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 11:25:52 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 6/16/2011 10:52:03 PM, Grape wrote:
8 is true, but is not a disadvantage. It is generally good to be fearful of potentially dangerous situations. The potential for paranoia that this causes at worse evens it out.

I completely disagree that it's not a disadvantage. It's called sexual terrorism. Educate yourself. I'm pretty sure that I'm scared sh!tless every single time I walk alone at night, as are most women (see: rape statistics... and actually don't even get me started on rape statistics, or the lack thereof) and that you and most guys aren't.


Number 8 doesn't say "I am less afraid of walking outside at night." I would have no disagreement with that. It says, "On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are." Because it is rational to fear walking alone after dark, it is not inherently a disadvantage to be taught to. If there is an incorrect assessment of risk, I don't think you can convincingly show that irrational fear is worse than overconfidence. But I think we both agree that the fear women have is rational.

I Googled "sexual terrorism" and didn't find any decent descriptive explanation of what it means, so perhaps you could explain the term better. I am reduced to inference.

31 is basically a disadvantage and the conclusion you are expected to draw from it is false. Women receive more, not less special protection from violent crime.

Nowhere did it imply a disadvantage OR that women receive less protection. The fact that you read it that way is kind of absurd.


I don't see how considering certain types of violence to be special issues is a disadvantage to the victims of those types of violence. The fact that it is a special issue implies more, not less attention. Certainly there is an increased (if insufficient) effort to deal with issues such as domestic abuse and acquaintance rape.

46 is false for obvious reasons.

That may be true for you, but most men are completely ignorant. See: tvellalott saying these are mostly "baseless assertions." I can't wait for him to point all of them out.


Most people are ignorant, but the article uses the first person. The fact that it is number 46 also makes it contextually problematic, but the underlying point is correct.

The others are mostly true, though, just in my opinion, several of them are rather minor. 45, for example, is likely to be more closely related to individual personalities than gender roles.

... No. They've done psychological studies on this indicating that it's not anecdotal.


Did the psychological study show that sex was a stronger indicator than shyness for being interrupted or just that sex was an indicator? I challenged the first assumption and not the second. Of course, I could be totally wrong about this, and I may very well just be oblivious to it.

At least you have the good sense to admit that you think upwards of 43 of these things are true.

I don't see how most of them can be contested, really.
Danielle
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6/16/2011 11:47:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 11:34:52 PM, Nags wrote:
I acknowledge these "privileges" here on an internet forum, but if one of my girl friends brought this up to me irl, I'd most likely do my best to discredit the list, especially in the presence of other males. Not sure how or why that happens. It's probably an ego thing.

I don't see why though. I don't have a problem acknowledging my white privilege. I don't think it's my fault or anything like that, or feel guilty about it, but being socially aware instead of socially oblivious is important. To answer geese's question about the point of this, educating people tends to be the only way to change mainstream societal viewpoints. Also I think there's something to be said about educating yourself in general as opposed to remaining ignorant. For example, most people don't know #6 is completely true (6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job). There are innumerable psychological studies backing this and many of those other statements. An example is where you ask people to rate a drawing, and upon thinking the artist was male, most would rate it as an 8. Giving the exact same drawing to another group and letting them think the artist was female, most might rate it at say a 5. Now of course this isn't perfect, as no studies are. However there are a lot of them and the results tend to depict the same exact thing.

Either way, I appreciate your honesty.

There isn't anything you can necessarily do to directly change these things, but as #46 said - most guys aren't aware of it and simply take this stuff for granted. Just choosing to not be ignorant is enough; it's not like I expect anyone to care about these discrepancies. Maybe some of you will if you have daughters. Maybe.
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Grape
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6/16/2011 11:54:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 11:29:52 PM, Danielle wrote:
I love how upon pointing these things out, instead of saying "Oh wow I never thought of it that way" the typical first reaction of men is to completely discredit it, or point out why it's useless, or flat out say it's not true. I also love how you had to try really hard to find the slight few that you could possibly remotely discredit, as if it's supposed to somehow prove something in your favor.

Is measured but near total agreement insufficient? If I think a conclusion is correct, do I have to think that every argument for it is valid or is it enough to think that over 90% are? I can't say every point there is valid if at least one isn't, and I am convinced that at least #8 is not.
tvellalott
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6/16/2011 11:55:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It's bullsh!t and you know it Danielle.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Xer
Posts: 7,776
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6/16/2011 11:55:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 11:39:45 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 6/16/2011 11:26:17 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 6/16/2011 10:58:23 PM, mongeese wrote:
Hence the problem. How is it useful to point out a problem as a problem if there isn't really any way to fix it?

Congratulations on completely missing the point.

The author's intentions appear to be to get men to give up their privileges, if the last pre-list sentence is any indication. The thing is, how can men give up psychological and biological urges? How could a discrimination argument possibly be effective against rapists? If there was a secondary point to the list, by all means, point it out.

The author said: "This checklist is, I hope, a step towards helping men to give up the 'first big privilege.'"
The "first big privilege" the author is referring to is "the privilege to be oblivious to privilege".

The author basically wants to "illustrate these invisible systems".

Your inference was a bit off, the author's intentions weren't written out in bold and underlined, but they were there if you looked.
Xer
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6/16/2011 11:58:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 11:47:46 PM, Danielle wrote:
I don't see why though. I don't have a problem acknowledging my white privilege ... Either way, I appreciate your honesty.

There's usually a policy implication that comes with these types of lists, like affirmative action, and that's probably the biggest reason for me minimizing such lists irl.

And I don't agree that all these "privileges" are valid, like Grape has been pointing out, but I do agree that most of them exist.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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6/17/2011 12:01:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
1) My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor.
Bullsh!t.

2) I can be confident that my co-workers won't think I got my job because of my sex – even though that might be true.
Bullsh!t.

3) If I am never promoted, it's not because of my sex.
Bullsh!t.

4) If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won't be seen as a black mark against my entire sex's capabilities.
Bullsh!t.

6) If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.
Bullsh!t.

9) If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.
Bullsh!t.

10) If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.
Bullsh!t.

11) If I have children and provide primary care for them, I'll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I'm even marginally competent.
Bullsh!t.

12) If I have children and a career, no one will think I'm selfish for not staying at home.
Bullsh!t.

Should I go on?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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