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Question for Anti-Abortionists

Indophile
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6/28/2011 2:19:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 1:54:18 PM, nonentity wrote:
What is the logic behind fetuses having the right to life but not the right to death?

Only the difference between suicide and murder.
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nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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6/28/2011 2:29:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
But you have to assume that, given the choice, a fetus would always choose to live. What if I would have preferred to have never been born?
Ragnar_Rahl
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6/28/2011 2:30:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
We make the same assumption about actual people until they say otherwise.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
quarterexchange
Posts: 1,549
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6/28/2011 2:35:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 2:29:35 PM, nonentity wrote:
But you have to assume that, given the choice, a fetus would always choose to live. What if I would have preferred to have never been born?

If we're assuming that there is a right to live and a right to die for fetuses then we are safer in letting fetuses become born.

Since most people aren't in a rush to commit suicide and have no will to die then we are violating less rights by allowing fetuses to live than by killing them seeing it is obvious that nearly all want to live.

And if you are born and it turns out you don't want to live you can correct that, not so vice versa.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.
nonentity
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6/28/2011 2:36:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 2:30:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
We make the same assumption about actual people until they say otherwise.

I would say that it is safe to make that assumption for people who are living because, thus far, they have chosen to live. A fetus hasn't chosen anything yet.
Contradiction
Posts: 409
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6/28/2011 2:37:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't believe in a right to die. I'm against euthanasia/assisted suicide as well.

Plus, we're not talking about simply choosing to die. We're talking about murder.
nonentity
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6/28/2011 2:38:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 2:35:57 PM, quarterexchange wrote:

And if you are born and it turns out you don't want to live you can correct that, not so vice versa.

You can't lose what you never had... but in order to correct my parents' mistake of giving birth to me, I have to put myself through excruciating pain. And if I fail, I have my rights taken away from me (eg. forced to take antidepressants or live in a hospital for weeks at a time).
Indophile
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6/28/2011 2:41:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 2:36:05 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 6/28/2011 2:30:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
We make the same assumption about actual people until they say otherwise.

I would say that it is safe to make that assumption for people who are living because, thus far, they have chosen to live. A fetus hasn't chosen anything yet.

Yet people do die willingly and fetuses, unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force, tend to live. (sorry for the newtonian overtone)
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nonentity
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6/28/2011 2:43:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 2:41:07 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 6/28/2011 2:36:05 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 6/28/2011 2:30:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
We make the same assumption about actual people until they say otherwise.

I would say that it is safe to make that assumption for people who are living because, thus far, they have chosen to live. A fetus hasn't chosen anything yet.

Yet people do die willingly and fetuses, unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force, tend to live. (sorry for the newtonian overtone)

Fair point. I will have to think about this further.
quarterexchange
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6/28/2011 2:44:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 2:38:38 PM, nonentity wrote:
You can't lose what you never had... but in order to correct my parents' mistake of giving birth to me, I have to put myself through excruciating pain. And if I fail, I have my rights taken away from me (eg. forced to take antidepressants or live in a hospital for weeks at a time).

Fetuses are alive, regardless of whether or not you consider them to be human.

And it isn't debatable that it is easier to live and later choose to kill yourself rather than die then choose to come back to life.

By letting fetuses live and become born they can make the choice whether or not they want to die themselves.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.
mongeese
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6/28/2011 2:51:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If you suddenly fell into a coma, but we were assured that you would come out okay in nine months, but we aren't sure whether or not you'd like to live by then, is it right for us to just kill you?
nonentity
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6/28/2011 3:00:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 2:51:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
If you suddenly fell into a coma, but we were assured that you would come out okay in nine months, but we aren't sure whether or not you'd like to live by then, is it right for us to just kill you?

Good question, and one that I don't have the answer to. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter whether people know you want to live or not. Our society believes that wanting to die is a disease and even if they knew you wanted to die, they'd force you to live.
mongeese
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6/28/2011 3:27:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If I were in a coma, and was supposed to come out of it okay, and the machine that was keeping me alive came unplugged, would you plug it back in?
mongeese
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6/28/2011 3:40:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 3:34:31 PM, tudaloo wrote:
http://www.google.com...

Let's avoid derailing this thread. We should concentrate on the specific question, and not have this flare up into another "Is a fetus a person?" thread.
tudaloo
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6/28/2011 3:44:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 3:40:59 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 6/28/2011 3:34:31 PM, tudaloo wrote:
http://www.google.com...

Let's avoid derailing this thread. We should concentrate on the specific question, and not have this flare up into another "Is a fetus a person?" thread.

Eh it will eventually.
nonentity
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6/28/2011 4:11:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Like Mongoose(eese?) Said, I'm not asking whether a fetus is a person. What I'm asking is, if it does have rights, why one and not the other...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/29/2011 1:58:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 2:41:07 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 6/28/2011 2:36:05 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 6/28/2011 2:30:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
We make the same assumption about actual people until they say otherwise.

I would say that it is safe to make that assumption for people who are living because, thus far, they have chosen to live. A fetus hasn't chosen anything yet.

Yet people do die willingly and fetuses, unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force, tend to live. (sorry for the newtonian overtone)

Actually, they don't tend to live once the external unbalanced force of the umbilical cord stops, unless provided with an external unbalanced force of mammary glands.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Indophile
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6/29/2011 8:28:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/29/2011 1:58:58 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 6/28/2011 2:41:07 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 6/28/2011 2:36:05 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 6/28/2011 2:30:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
We make the same assumption about actual people until they say otherwise.

I would say that it is safe to make that assumption for people who are living because, thus far, they have chosen to live. A fetus hasn't chosen anything yet.

Yet people do die willingly and fetuses, unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force, tend to live. (sorry for the newtonian overtone)

Actually, they don't tend to live once the external unbalanced force of the umbilical cord stops, unless provided with an external unbalanced force of mammary glands.

By which point they are no longer fetuses.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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6/29/2011 8:48:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/29/2011 8:28:20 AM, Indophile wrote:

Yet people do die willingly and fetuses, unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force, tend to live. (sorry for the newtonian overtone)

Actually, they don't tend to live once the external unbalanced force of the umbilical cord stops, unless provided with an external unbalanced force of mammary glands.

By which point they are no longer fetuses.

A fetus isn't connected by an umbilical cord?

I think the point Raggy is making is that the mother represents an external unbalanced force, without which a fetus will not "tend to live".
Indophile
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6/29/2011 8:58:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/29/2011 8:48:23 AM, feverish wrote:
At 6/29/2011 8:28:20 AM, Indophile wrote:

Yet people do die willingly and fetuses, unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force, tend to live. (sorry for the newtonian overtone)

Actually, they don't tend to live once the external unbalanced force of the umbilical cord stops, unless provided with an external unbalanced force of mammary glands.

By which point they are no longer fetuses.

A fetus isn't connected by an umbilical cord?

I think the point Raggy is making is that the mother represents an external unbalanced force, without which a fetus will not "tend to live".

I was talking about the point where Ragnar was talking about the mammary glands. I don't agree with him that the umbilical cord is an external influence at all.

The normal state of affairs when a fetus is in the womb is that the fetus will live. The mother cannot be an external unbalanced force at all as long as the fetus is in the womb.

Does the mother choose to connect to the baby with the umbilical cord? Is it a choice for her? Or does it happen naturally? If it happens naturally, it cannot be "external and unbalanced".
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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6/29/2011 11:10:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 3:27:10 PM, mongeese wrote:
If I were in a coma, and was supposed to come out of it okay, and the machine that was keeping me alive came unplugged, would you plug it back in?

If I was in a coma, and was supposed to come out of it okay, but the only machine that could keep me alive had to be in your house, on your dime, and you had to be there every second of the day to make sure nothing went wrong with the machine (as it would pose a liability and subsequent health risk to you as you had to be hooked up to the machine in order to keep it going... just because), and then after those 9 months you would be forced to spend X amount of years and Y amount of dollars making sure the machine was functioning properly, and spending Z amount of time with me as I would require your full attention, guidance and monetary support until I was well enough to survive on my own without it somewhere 20 something years down the line... should you be forced to accept this?

Nevertheless your question isn't analogous, because you're asking about a non-hypothetical already living person whereas a fetus may never qualify as a person to begin with, thus never qualifying as having rights. Aside from the rights argument, using you in this example as an already living person becomes akin to appealing to emotion as you want us to consider killing a person vs. killing a fetus. It's convenient that you wish to avoid the issue of whether or not a fetus is a person.

It's also interesting to me that most people who are pro-life have absolutely no problem with killing rational animals but seem to think it's immoral to kill a non-rational fetus.
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Rob1_Billion
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6/29/2011 1:26:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/29/2011 11:10:53 AM, Danielle wrote:
It's also interesting to me that most people who are pro-life have absolutely no problem with killing rational animals but seem to think it's immoral to kill a non-rational fetus.

... and no problem with the death penalty.
kfc
Mirza
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6/29/2011 1:29:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/29/2011 11:10:53 AM, Danielle wrote:
It's also interesting to me that most people who are pro-life have absolutely no problem with killing rational animals but seem to think it's immoral to kill a non-rational fetus.
Rationality is not a requirement for someone to be considered a human being with the right to life. A non-rational human is a human by definition, hence the right to life is automatically reserved for him. No animal has either the capability, or even potential capability, to become a human by any definition.
Mirza
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6/29/2011 1:32:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/29/2011 1:26:48 PM, Rob1_Billion wrote:
At 6/29/2011 11:10:53 AM, Danielle wrote:
It's also interesting to me that most people who are pro-life have absolutely no problem with killing rational animals but seem to think it's immoral to kill a non-rational fetus.

... and no problem with the death penalty.
Death penalty is a penalty for crimes committed intentionally by adult humans. Abortion is a penalty executed by a mother on an unborn baby because the mother, not the baby, committed a moral crime.

What a comparison. Sorry to say, but death penalty <--> pro-life is not even a comparison. It's more of garbage.