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Abortion issues Q&A

Chuz-Life
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7/9/2011 9:31:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hi all,

I am new to the site and somewhat eager to debate some of the abortion related issues as that has become my de-facto area of interest for now over 20 years.

My problem is, I don't really know who's who, what's left to be debated and whether or not there is any interest in more abortion debates here.

So, I thought I would start this thread and see where it leads.

~Chuz
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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Chuz-Life
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7/9/2011 9:34:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 9:31:40 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
Hi all,

I am new to the site and somewhat eager to debate some of the abortion related issues; As that has become my de-facto area of interest for now over 20 years.

My problem is, I don't really know who's who, what's left to be debated and whether or not there is any interest in more abortion debates here.

So, I thought I would start this thread and see where it leads.

~Chuz

What a difference punctuation makes.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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Sieben
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7/9/2011 9:43:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 9:34:05 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 7/9/2011 9:31:40 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
Hi all,

I am new to the site and somewhat eager to debate some of the abortion related issues, as that has become my de-facto area of interest for now over 20 years.

My problem is I don't really know who's who, what's left to be debated, and whether or not there is any interest in more abortion debates here.

So, I thought I would start this thread and see where it leads.

~Chuz

What a difference punctuation makes.

What a difference indeed.

I have a question - why does someone's stance on abortion matter?
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Chuz-Life
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7/9/2011 9:53:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 9:43:17 AM, Sieben wrote:
I have a question - why does someone's stance on abortion matter?

That would depend on all the variables, wouldn't it?
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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Sieben
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7/9/2011 9:55:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 9:53:07 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 7/9/2011 9:43:17 AM, Sieben wrote:
I have a question - why does someone's stance on abortion matter?

That would depend on all the variables, wouldn't it?

What do you mean?

But I don't think so.
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Chuz-Life
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7/9/2011 9:59:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 9:55:45 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 7/9/2011 9:53:07 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 7/9/2011 9:43:17 AM, Sieben wrote:
I have a question - why does someone's stance on abortion matter?

That would depend on all the variables, wouldn't it?

What do you mean?

But I don't think so.

You asked "why does someone's stance on abortion matter?"

It's a highly subjective question, and the answer would range from it doesn't matter at all to it matters greatly. It depends on who the "someone" is (a drunk on a park bench or a Supreme Court Justice) what their "stances" are,... etc.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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Chuz-Life
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7/9/2011 10:01:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
How much or how little something matters is very subjective, is all I'm trying to say.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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Sieben
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7/9/2011 10:02:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 9:59:04 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:

It's a highly subjective question, and the answer would range from it doesn't matter at all to it matters greatly. It depends on who the "someone" is (a drunk on a park bench or a Supreme Court Justice) what their "stances" are,... etc.

No. I'm not asking IF it matters to some people, I'm asking why it SHOULD matter. Put differently, how great is the moral problem if everyone (including lawmakers) just flip a coin to make up their mind?
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popculturepooka
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7/9/2011 10:06:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 10:02:49 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 7/9/2011 9:59:04 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:

It's a highly subjective question, and the answer would range from it doesn't matter at all to it matters greatly. It depends on who the "someone" is (a drunk on a park bench or a Supreme Court Justice) what their "stances" are,... etc.

No. I'm not asking IF it matters to some people, I'm asking why it SHOULD matter. Put differently, how great is the moral problem if everyone (including lawmakers) just flip a coin to make up their mind?

Guess that depends on the status (moral, societal, etc) of the abortees, right?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Sieben
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7/9/2011 10:08:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 10:06:55 AM, popculturepooka wrote:

Guess that depends on the status (moral, societal, etc) of the abortees, right?

Not really.
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Chuz-Life
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7/9/2011 10:11:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 10:02:49 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 7/9/2011 9:59:04 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:

It's a highly subjective question, and the answer would range from it doesn't matter at all to it matters greatly. It depends on who the "someone" is (a drunk on a park bench or a Supreme Court Justice) what their "stances" are,... etc.

No. I'm not asking IF it matters to some people, I'm asking why it SHOULD matter. Put differently, how great is the moral problem if everyone (including lawmakers) just flip a coin to make up their mind?

That's a fair question, I suppose. However, I don't bother myself with "shoulds" and "should nots" where things that matter to myself are concerned.

Lawmakers take an oath to uphold our Constitution and whether they take their oath seriously or not, to many of us... The Constitution "matters."

Whether it "should" or not matter to you is entirely up to you.

Like I said, it's subjective.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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Sieben
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7/9/2011 10:17:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 10:11:21 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 7/9/2011 10:02:49 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 7/9/2011 9:59:04 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:

It's a highly subjective question, and the answer would range from it doesn't matter at all to it matters greatly. It depends on who the "someone" is (a drunk on a park bench or a Supreme Court Justice) what their "stances" are,... etc.

No. I'm not asking IF it matters to some people, I'm asking why it SHOULD matter. Put differently, how great is the moral problem if everyone (including lawmakers) just flip a coin to make up their mind?

That's a fair question, I suppose. However, I don't bother myself with "shoulds" and "should nots" where things that matter to myself are concerned.

Lawmakers take an oath to uphold our Constitution and whether they take their oath seriously or not, to many of us... The Constitution "matters."

Whether it "should" or not matter to you is entirely up to you.

Like I said, it's subjective.

No. You're giving me circular logic again. How significant are the moral harms if everyone, including lawmakers, just flip a coin on the issue?

Btw, you're in danger of the "subjective" logic being turned on you. If you can't give objective reasons for your position, all ideological conflict is just stalemate because you just say "well it matters to me but it doesn't matter to you".
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Chuz-Life
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7/9/2011 10:24:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 10:17:26 AM, Sieben wrote:
How significant are the moral harms if everyone, including lawmakers, just flip a coin on the issue?


You have not proved that "everyone, including lawmakers" (many of which are split on the issue) are "just flipping coins" on the issue.

So, I reject your premise as it is fatally flawed and provably FALSE.

Btw, you're in danger of the "subjective" logic being turned on you. If you can't give objective reasons for your position, all ideological conflict is just stalemate because you just say "well it matters to me but it doesn't matter to you".

How much or how little something matters is very much a thing of perception. Objectively, there are ebbs and flows to what society as a whole seems to think "matters."
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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Sieben
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7/9/2011 10:27:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 10:24:10 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 7/9/2011 10:17:26 AM, Sieben wrote:
How significant are the moral harms if everyone, including lawmakers, just flip a coin on the issue?


You have not proved that "everyone, including lawmakers" (many of which are split on the issue) are "just flipping coins" on the issue.

So, I reject your premise as it is fatally flawed and provably FALSE.

Im not trying to prove people are flipping coins. I'm asking why it would be so bad if they did.

How much or how little something matters is very much a thing of perception. Objectively, there are ebbs and flows to what society as a whole seems to think "matters."

So you're basically saying that you have no justification for focusing on abortion other than it "matters to you", which is circular. You could just as easily have been ensnared in obsessively debating toothpaste regulation or whether movies rated M should be allowed more than 3 swear words.

You haven't proven why abortion should be a serious issue. To anyone.
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Chuz-Life
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7/9/2011 10:36:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 10:27:33 AM, Sieben wrote:
So you're basically saying that you have no justification for focusing on abortion other than it "matters to you", which is circular.

You didn't ask me what my "justifications" are for "focusing on abortion," Sieben.

You asked me: "why does someone's stance on abortion matter?"

That's a completely different question.

You haven't proven why abortion should be a serious issue. To anyone.

Objectively speaking, the abortion issue is a legal and Constitutional issue. The amount it "matters" to any one individual or even a lawmaker is entirely up to that individual. Likewise for how "serious" of an issue (or matter) they believe it to be.

Does this help?
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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Sieben
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7/9/2011 10:42:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 10:36:01 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 7/9/2011 10:27:33 AM, Sieben wrote:
So you're basically saying that you have no justification for focusing on abortion other than it "matters to you", which is circular.

You didn't ask me what my "justifications" are for "focusing on abortion," Sieben.

You asked me: "why does someone's stance on abortion matter?"

That's a completely different question.

If anyone's stance on abortion doesn't matter, then your stance on abortion doesn't matter either.

You haven't proven why abortion should be a serious issue. To anyone.

Objectively speaking, the abortion issue is a legal and Constitutional issue. The amount it "matters" to any one individual or even a lawmaker is entirely up to that individual. Likewise for how "serious" of an issue (or matter) they believe it to be.

Does this help?

No. I know people CAN make up their own minds. I'm asking why they SHOULD even bother in the first place.

You are shifting between a prescriptive and prudential usage of the word "should". Of course I mean it in the prescriptive or moral sense. This is why I asked how much it mattered if the whole world just flipped a coin on the issue. You have not answered.

I do not mean in a prudential sense, which is what you are focusing on. "Should I murder innocent people?" "Depends if you're a bloodthirsty psychopath." Surely you agree that's a very useless answer, and you're giving me the same sort of useless answer on whether abortion matters. "It depends on if you care about abortion." Duh.
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Chuz-Life
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7/9/2011 10:54:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 10:42:03 AM, Sieben wrote:
If anyone's stance on abortion doesn't matter, then your stance on abortion doesn't matter either.


If the above is merely your opinion, please say so and I will regard it as such.

However, if you are making a claim,...

Your claim fails; logically.

You are making the claim that what matters to YOU is contingent upon what matters to "anyone else." When in reality, the two are mutually exclusive. You decide what matters to you and everyone else does the same for themselves.

I know people CAN make up their own minds. I'm asking why they SHOULD even bother in the first place.


I'm not saying anyone "should" or "shouldn't bother in the first place."

I consider such a pondering a waste of my time.

You are shifting between a prescriptive and prudential usage of the word "should". Of course I mean it in the prescriptive or moral sense. This is why I asked how much it mattered if the whole world just flipped a coin on the issue. You have not answered.


Yes, I have answered.... and your speculation is what it is, speculation. The "whole world is not just flipping a coin on the issue." So, why speculate about it?

I do not mean in a prudential sense, which is what you are focusing on. "Should I murder innocent people?" "Depends if you're a bloodthirsty psychopath." Surely you agree that's a very useless answer, and you're giving me the same sort of useless answer on whether abortion matters. "It depends on if you care about abortion." Duh.

Duh is about it.

If you want to know why abortion "matters" to "me" why not just ask that instead?
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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Cerebral_Narcissist
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7/9/2011 12:39:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 10:08:44 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 7/9/2011 10:06:55 AM, popculturepooka wrote:

Guess that depends on the status (moral, societal, etc) of the abortees, right?

Not really.

Of course it does, it you regard abortion as murder you will generally desire to interfere in the 'rights' of people to abort.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Chuz-Life
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7/9/2011 12:45:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 12:39:56 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/9/2011 10:08:44 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 7/9/2011 10:06:55 AM, popculturepooka wrote:

Guess that depends on the status (moral, societal, etc) of the abortees, right?

Not really.

Of course it does, it you regard abortion as murder you will generally desire to interfere in the 'rights' of people to abort.

Thanks for putting the word "rights" in quotes ^there.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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OMGJustinBieber
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7/9/2011 12:49:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
What side are you on?

I could recommend users to debate, but in particular there are some very strong anti-abortion debaters but certainly no shortage of pro-choice debaters.
Chuz-Life
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7/9/2011 1:04:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 12:49:36 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
What side are you on?

I could recommend users to debate, but in particular there are some very strong anti-abortion debaters but certainly no shortage of pro-choice debaters.

Who is this addressed to?
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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OMGJustinBieber
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7/9/2011 1:08:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It was originally addressed to you, but I see that you're Con.

I know Freeman has done a few good debaters arguing the Pro side on abortion. Danielle could put up a good argument. Those are just 2 off the top of my head, if you're looking for a debate.
Chuz-Life
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7/9/2011 1:09:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 1:08:00 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
It was originally addressed to you, but I see that you're Con.

I know Freeman has done a few good debaters arguing the Pro side on abortion. Danielle could put up a good argument. Those are just 2 off the top of my head, if you're looking for a debate.

Ok. Thanks.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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Sieben
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7/9/2011 1:21:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 10:54:04 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 7/9/2011 10:42:03 AM, Sieben wrote:

If the above is merely your opinion, please say so and I will regard it as such.

No. It really doesn't matter what people think about abortion.

However, if you are making a claim,...

Your claim fails; logically.

No it doesn't. You still haven't proven or answered my original question about why abortion matters.

You are making the claim that what matters to YOU is contingent upon what matters to "anyone else." When in reality, the two are mutually exclusive. You decide what matters to you and everyone else does the same for themselves.

Okay first, they aren't mutually exclusive. What matters to me is included in what matters to anyone.

Second, I am asking whether it matters from a MORAL standpoint, not my own subjective standpoint.

Third, you keep diffusing conflict by switching to the "prudential" definition of "matters" or "should". Its a red herring and it undermines any moral position you might take because it will just be your OPINION.

I'm not saying anyone "should" or "shouldn't bother in the first place."

I consider such a pondering a waste of my time.

Why is it a waste of time? You can't even prove that your core subject has ANY significance. Yes I know it is subjectively significant to you; obviously I mean moral relevance.

Yes, I have answered.... and your speculation is what it is, speculation. The "whole world is not just flipping a coin on the issue." So, why speculate about it?

Because you are being obtuse. It is a thought experiment to help you through the issue, both of which you are dodging. So I ask again - how big a problem is it if the whole world flipped a coin on abortion?

Duh is about it.

If you want to know why abortion "matters" to "me" why not just ask that instead?

Because I don't want to hear some dribble about how it subjectively interests you and how your emotions bla bla bla. You use ARGUMENTS to defend your stance on abortion right? I want to hear WHY those arguments are relevant in the first place.
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Sieben
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7/9/2011 1:21:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 12:39:56 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

Of course it does, it you regard abortion as murder you will generally desire to interfere in the 'rights' of people to abort.

No. I don't think it matters if abortion counts as 100% murder.
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BennyW
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7/9/2011 1:23:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The most prominent pro-life activists here that I can think of are JoshBrahm, Trent_H, and KeytarHero however there are plenty more myself included who have done and would be willing to debate those who are pro-choice. What you can do is go to the issues section of your profile and click on abortion and it will show you a list of people pro-and con.
You didn't build that-Obama
It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
Cerebral_Narcissist
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7/9/2011 1:24:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 1:21:09 PM, Sieben wrote:

Second, I am asking whether it matters from a MORAL standpoint, not my own subjective standpoint.

If you are asking why it matters from a moral standpoint you are asking why it matters from a given subjective standpoint.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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7/9/2011 1:25:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 1:21:57 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 7/9/2011 12:39:56 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

Of course it does, it you regard abortion as murder you will generally desire to interfere in the 'rights' of people to abort.

No. I don't think it matters if abortion counts as 100% murder.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Chuz-Life
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7/9/2011 1:32:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 1:21:09 PM, Sieben wrote:
<snipped for brevity>
Because I don't want to hear some dribble about how it subjectively interests you and how your emotions bla bla bla. You use ARGUMENTS to defend your stance on abortion right? I want to hear WHY those arguments are relevant in the first place.

I don't argue from a moral perspective, Sieben. So, maybe that's why we are at an impasse. Right, wrong, matters, doesn't matter, serious, not serious.... etc. Are not factors in my thinking.

I do use arguments to defend my stance on the abortion issue. Correct!

As to "WHY" my arguments are relevant? (purely objectively speaking here) My arguments are relevant because I vote and convey my opinions on to my political representatives who then (generally speaking) pass my views into law or oppose laws and such that I (as a constituent) would oppose.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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Chuz-Life
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7/9/2011 1:40:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 1:23:44 PM, BennyW wrote:
The most prominent pro-life activists here that I can think of are JoshBrahm, Trent_H, and KeytarHero however there are plenty more myself included who have done and would be willing to debate those who are pro-choice. What you can do is go to the issues section of your profile and click on abortion and it will show you a list of people pro-and con.

Thanks Benny!
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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