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The Zeitgeist Movement

Tiel
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7/17/2011 6:26:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Topic: The Zeitgeist Movement
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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7/18/2011 1:52:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
It would be great if these goals went through. But as with the Venus project (they go hand in hand) people are too lazy and stupid to support it.

Plus the conspiracies are a turn off.
logicalFallacy
Posts: 176
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7/18/2011 4:29:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
TZM basically proposes socialism, nearly identical to Marx. Like Marx, they believe that technology can enable us to produce enough abundance to do away with money and markets and provide enough for everyone through central planning. And like Marx, the details of how to run the economy are missing, and they seem to discount the difficulty in running a modern, hi-tech economy efficiently.

But unlike Marx, they provide an overly simplified critique of capitalism and use conspiracy theories as sources. Their films are filled with complete economic nonsense that is just not true.

And since Marx made socialism popular, we have had over 100 years of experiments in more than half the world. They completely ignore all of this.

I would sum up the movie as a movie made by a conspiracy theorist who has little knowledge of economics and seems to be completely unaware that these ideas have been studied and debated and tried for more than a century. The movie adds absolutely nothing to the debate. It proposes a version of socialism that modern socialists don't even advocate any more.

If you want a scholarly critique of capitalism view Yale's online political science course where they show where marx was proven right and where he was proven wrong. If you want an honest look at the feasibility of socialism, given all that has happened the last century, read Alec Nove who is a socialist and the foremost expert on the Soviet economy and other socialist experiments. And if you want a scholarly proposal on how computers and direct democracy can make central planning efficient (and fix where the soviet model failed), read Paul Cockshott.
:darkkermit
[Using a dictionary] has got to be the most retarded thing i've heard
Tiel
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7/18/2011 5:41:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 4:29:59 PM, logicalFallacy wrote:
TZM basically proposes socialism, nearly identical to Marx. Like Marx, they believe that technology can enable us to produce enough abundance to do away with money and markets and provide enough for everyone through central planning. And like Marx, the details of how to run the economy are missing, and they seem to discount the difficulty in running a modern, hi-tech economy efficiently.

But unlike Marx, they provide an overly simplified critique of capitalism and use conspiracy theories as sources. Their films are filled with complete economic nonsense that is just not true.

And since Marx made socialism popular, we have had over 100 years of experiments in more than half the world. They completely ignore all of this.

I would sum up the movie as a movie made by a conspiracy theorist who has little knowledge of economics and seems to be completely unaware that these ideas have been studied and debated and tried for more than a century. The movie adds absolutely nothing to the debate. It proposes a version of socialism that modern socialists don't even advocate any more.

If you want a scholarly critique of capitalism view Yale's online political science course where they show where marx was proven right and where he was proven wrong. If you want an honest look at the feasibility of socialism, given all that has happened the last century, read Alec Nove who is a socialist and the foremost expert on the Soviet economy and other socialist experiments. And if you want a scholarly proposal on how computers and direct democracy can make central planning efficient (and fix where the soviet model failed), read Paul Cockshott.

Reply: You don't have to do a lot of research or be a genius to understand how capitalism fails and how our current socio-economic system is flawed in almost every way. Common sense will give anyone the tools they need to see the faults. It's not Marxism.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
GAC
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7/18/2011 6:18:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 4:29:59 PM, logicalFallacy wrote:
TZM basically proposes socialism, nearly identical to Marx. Like Marx, they believe that technology can enable us to produce enough abundance to do away with money and markets and provide enough for everyone through central planning. And like Marx, the details of how to run the economy are missing, and they seem to discount the difficulty in running a modern, hi-tech economy efficiently.

But unlike Marx, they provide an overly simplified critique of capitalism and use conspiracy theories as sources. Their films are filled with complete economic nonsense that is just not true.

And since Marx made socialism popular, we have had over 100 years of experiments in more than half the world. They completely ignore all of this.

I would sum up the movie as a movie made by a conspiracy theorist who has little knowledge of economics and seems to be completely unaware that these ideas have been studied and debated and tried for more than a century. The movie adds absolutely nothing to the debate. It proposes a version of socialism that modern socialists don't even advocate any more.

If you want a scholarly critique of capitalism view Yale's online political science course where they show where marx was proven right and where he was proven wrong. If you want an honest look at the feasibility of socialism, given all that has happened the last century, read Alec Nove who is a socialist and the foremost expert on the Soviet economy and other socialist experiments. And if you want a scholarly proposal on how computers and direct democracy can make central planning efficient (and fix where the soviet model failed), read Paul Cockshott.

Tiel, don't mind logicalFallacy, he's just another cynic posing as a skeptic. Can't get enough of those.. /rolls eyes
logicalFallacy
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7/18/2011 6:31:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Apparently it is not that obvious or easy to understand since there is no significant movement to end capitalism in developed countries. And there isn't a significant movement to return to socialism in developing countries.
:darkkermit
[Using a dictionary] has got to be the most retarded thing i've heard
logicalFallacy
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7/18/2011 6:37:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 6:18:58 PM, GAC wrote:
Tiel, don't mind logicalFallacy, he's just another cynic posing as a skeptic. Can't get enough of those.. /rolls eyes

The name of this site is "debate". If you just want to ignore critics and only listen to people who support TZM, visit the TZM forum.
:darkkermit
[Using a dictionary] has got to be the most retarded thing i've heard
Tiel
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7/18/2011 6:39:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 6:31:30 PM, logicalFallacy wrote:
Apparently it is not that obvious or easy to understand since there is no significant movement to end capitalism in developed countries. And there isn't a significant movement to return to socialism in developing countries.

Reply: Humans become hardwired to support ideas that they feel will benefit them the most. When more people understand how those other systems won't benefit them, they will not support them anymore. Instead they will support something that will again make them feel that it will benefit them. The socio-economic structure advocated by The Zeitgeist movement and The Venus Project, may need to be developed further, but they are concepts in which many people find attractive. This attraction will blossom when people feel that these concepts can actually become a reality. That's what the first city will provide. A way to show people how this concept can be implemented.

Also, it is a great goal either way. The current system needs to be replaced.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
logicalFallacy
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7/18/2011 7:10:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 6:39:51 PM, Tiel wrote:
This attraction will blossom when people feel that these concepts can actually become a reality.

Fresco's idea will never blossom. An economy with no money to ration goods and services and where workers never get paid will never be taken seriously because it cannot work.

That's what the first city will provide. A way to show people how this concept can be implemented.

What country is going to hand over an entire city to this experiment (especially since TZM/TVP does not want people to get involved in the political process)?

And even if it did, you cannot replicate an entire economy in a single city. A single city will have limited productive capacity so you will rely on imports for most things. And the citizens will likely be supporters of the movement, so it wouldn't be a representative sample of how regular people would act (as far as working for free and accepting the economic decisions being made for them).

Also, it is a great goal either way. The current system needs to be replaced.

I think a command economy with no democracy is a terrible idea.

I think a much better idea is using money, public ownership of capital, equal pay for equal work, democracy, and production decisions based on what consumers purchase instead of some fictional computer.

I also believe that a socialist society that works well for everyone will only come about when you have a rational plan based on peer-reviewed, genuine evidence that can stand up to critical objections AND you get those interested in this new economic system to get active politically.

Throwing your kid's piggy bank into the street of times square as a way to change the system is comically absurd.
:darkkermit
[Using a dictionary] has got to be the most retarded thing i've heard
Tiel
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7/18/2011 8:05:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 7:10:47 PM, logicalFallacy wrote:
At 7/18/2011 6:39:51 PM, Tiel wrote:
This attraction will blossom when people feel that these concepts can actually become a reality.

Fresco's idea will never blossom. An economy with no money to ration goods and services and where workers never get paid will never be taken seriously because it cannot work.


That's what the first city will provide. A way to show people how this concept can be implemented.

What country is going to hand over an entire city to this experiment (especially since TZM/TVP does not want people to get involved in the political process)?

And even if it did, you cannot replicate an entire economy in a single city. A single city will have limited productive capacity so you will rely on imports for most things. And the citizens will likely be supporters of the movement, so it wouldn't be a representative sample of how regular people would act (as far as working for free and accepting the economic decisions being made for them).


Also, it is a great goal either way. The current system needs to be replaced.

I think a command economy with no democracy is a terrible idea.

I think a much better idea is using money, public ownership of capital, equal pay for equal work, democracy, and production decisions based on what consumers purchase instead of some fictional computer.

I also believe that a socialist society that works well for everyone will only come about when you have a rational plan based on peer-reviewed, genuine evidence that can stand up to critical objections AND you get those interested in this new economic system to get active politically.

Throwing your kid's piggy bank into the street of times square as a way to change the system is comically absurd.

Reply: You don't seem to understand this movement very accurately. The attitude you are showing is the kind of attitude that has created the current faulty socio-economic systems in the first place. Sorry but your attitude is part of the problem, not the solution.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
logicalFallacy
Posts: 176
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7/18/2011 8:28:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 8:05:39 PM, Tiel wrote:
Reply: You don't seem to understand this movement very accurately. The attitude you are showing is the kind of attitude that has created the current faulty socio-economic systems in the first place. Sorry but your attitude is part of the problem, not the solution.

What is wrong in my understanding of the movement?

What attitude in particular and how specifically did that create our current economic system?
:darkkermit
[Using a dictionary] has got to be the most retarded thing i've heard
logicalFallacy
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7/18/2011 8:30:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 8:05:39 PM, Tiel wrote:
Reply: You don't seem to understand this movement very accurately. The attitude you are showing is the kind of attitude that has created the current faulty socio-economic systems in the first place. Sorry but your attitude is part of the problem, not the solution.

Do you have any actual points to make or do you just not like my attitude?
:darkkermit
[Using a dictionary] has got to be the most retarded thing i've heard
Tiel
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7/18/2011 8:57:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 8:30:00 PM, logicalFallacy wrote:
At 7/18/2011 8:05:39 PM, Tiel wrote:
Reply: You don't seem to understand this movement very accurately. The attitude you are showing is the kind of attitude that has created the current faulty socio-economic systems in the first place. Sorry but your attitude is part of the problem, not the solution.

Do you have any actual points to make or do you just not like my attitude?

Reply: Both. Our perspectives are in complete opposition. I'm not going to try and convince you of anything, it would take far too long and you seem pretty set on your stance. Thank you for your contribution to the forum though, no matter how negative and inaccurate it may be of the Zeitgeist Movement and The Venus Project.

If you want to understand it better, go to the official Zeitgeist channel on YouTube and watch some videos. If you still don't understand it correctly, then there is no point to try and explain it to you, for the only thing that would be keeping you from understanding at that point would be stubbornness.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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7/18/2011 9:45:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 6:39:51 PM, Tiel wrote:
At 7/18/2011 6:31:30 PM, logicalFallacy wrote:
Apparently it is not that obvious or easy to understand since there is no significant movement to end capitalism in developed countries. And there isn't a significant movement to return to socialism in developing countries.

Reply: Humans become hardwired to support ideas that they feel will benefit them the most. When more people understand how those other systems won't benefit them, they will not support them anymore. Instead they will support something that will again make them feel that it will benefit them. The socio-economic structure advocated by The Zeitgeist movement and The Venus Project, may need to be developed further, but they are concepts in which many people find attractive. This attraction will blossom when people feel that these concepts can actually become a reality. That's what the first city will provide. A way to show people how this concept can be implemented.

Also, it is a great goal either way. The current system needs to be replaced.

Problem is that TZM doesn't directly benefit the individual in the short run. It benefits society in the long run. It's like people doing recycling: they might get a few dollars, but the effort involved outweighs individual benefits. It is concern about society or the environment that leads to recycling.

We're great at doing what benefits us. We're not so great at doing what benefits society or future generations.
bkyle
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7/19/2011 1:19:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The path humanity is currently on is unsustainable. Misery like humanity has never known is absolutely certain, if we don't make changes.

Why?

1) Our current monetary-based economy is based on infinite growth, which is impossible, of course, on a finite planet.

2) Debt created in interest can never be paid back.

3) Peak Oil.

4) Technological Unemployment.

5) We have only one planet, and the planned obsolescence and cyclical consumption that is the basis of our current monetary-based economy forces us to pollute the planet and strip the resources at an ever-increasing rate.

Each of these could be a separate topic on debate.org.

We need real change. The future of humanity depends on it.

But what is real change?

Real change is not made with elections and changing name-plates on office doors.

Real change is not adding more laws, implementing more restrictions, and giving up personal rights and freedoms.

Real change is not "going green" by bringing your own shopping bag to the grocery store.

Then what is real change? First, we have to start by looking at what is important: We have one planet with limited resources that must be carefully managed in a sustainable manner to be available for all future generations.

Is money important? Can you breath money or eat money or by sheltered by money? No, money just facilitates exchange so you can obtain necessities.

What if we could make available all the necessities of life without money? What if we could do it for everyone on the planet in a sustainable manner?

Luckily for us, we can. We have the understanding and advanced technology to do just that.

We only lack the maturity as a species to go where we need to be going.

Some form of a Resource-Based Economy is humanity's future.

It's not a choice between capitalism and socialism.
It's not a choice between your comfortable (but fragile) life now and a life of minimalism.
It's not a choice between selfishness and cooperation.

It's a choice between certain collapse of the world as we know it, or the transition to a sustainable life for everyone and all future generations.

This is why I advocate The Zeitgeist Movement.

Cheers!
Ragnar_Rahl
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7/19/2011 1:29:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
We have the understanding and advanced technology to do just that.
Your post contains neither.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
bkyle
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7/19/2011 1:48:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/19/2011 1:29:02 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
We have the understanding and advanced technology to do just that.
Your post contains neither.

If you don't already know about the advanced technologies we have sitting on the sidelines and not being used to help make our world more sustainable, get ready to be amazed...

"Our Technical Reality"
youtube.com watch?v=M2nxCp9Hwxs
Ragnar_Rahl
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7/19/2011 2:14:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Video is not an efficient medium of honest argumentation.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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7/19/2011 2:17:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
And the preview image of your video--

Sunpower?

There's a reason people don't use sunpower for everything.

It's expensive and unreliable. It's not economically viable except for generating extra power to meet air conditioning demand in the summer. Abolishing money doesn't change this, money is merely a measure of the relative values of resources used in particular means of production, and the value of the output, to the average person using them.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
bkyle
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7/19/2011 2:33:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/19/2011 2:17:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
And the preview image of your video--

Sunpower?

There's a reason people don't use sunpower for everything.

It's expensive and unreliable. It's not economically viable except for generating extra power to meet air conditioning demand in the summer. Abolishing money doesn't change this, money is merely a measure of the relative values of resources used in particular means of production, and the value of the output, to the average person using them.

Are you judging the capabilities of humanity's most advanced technologies by the preview image on that YouTube video?

Of course solar power is not the answer to the world's problems. Try watching the video.
Ragnar_Rahl
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7/19/2011 2:36:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/19/2011 2:33:03 PM, bkyle wrote:
At 7/19/2011 2:17:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
And the preview image of your video--

Sunpower?

There's a reason people don't use sunpower for everything.

It's expensive and unreliable. It's not economically viable except for generating extra power to meet air conditioning demand in the summer. Abolishing money doesn't change this, money is merely a measure of the relative values of resources used in particular means of production, and the value of the output, to the average person using them.

Are you judging the capabilities of humanity's most advanced technologies by the preview image on that YouTube video?
I'm judging the video's merits by it and other information

Of course solar power is not the answer to the world's problems. Try watching the video.
As I said, video is not an efficient method of honest argumentation.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/19/2011 2:44:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I like all the Zeitgeist movies and think they're spot on except for the Venus Project stuff. I even owe Zeitgeist the credit for being the spark that woke me up to the global conspiracy.

But The Venus Project is pure fantasy and will never occur in my lifetime. Not because it's not a viable and rational economic system, but because it would require 50 years of effort to complete and I will be dead by then, so I don't give crap about this great place to live when I'm already DEAD.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Tiel
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7/19/2011 2:45:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/19/2011 2:33:03 PM, bkyle wrote:
At 7/19/2011 2:17:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
And the preview image of your video--

Sunpower?

There's a reason people don't use sunpower for everything.

It's expensive and unreliable. It's not economically viable except for generating extra power to meet air conditioning demand in the summer. Abolishing money doesn't change this, money is merely a measure of the relative values of resources used in particular means of production, and the value of the output, to the average person using them.

Are you judging the capabilities of humanity's most advanced technologies by the preview image on that YouTube video?

Of course solar power is not the answer to the world's problems. Try watching the video.

Reply: Thank you for being one of the first people to argue on behalf of the movement. It is people like you that will change this world for the better.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Tiel
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7/19/2011 2:47:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/19/2011 2:36:42 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/19/2011 2:33:03 PM, bkyle wrote:
At 7/19/2011 2:17:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
And the preview image of your video--

Sunpower?

There's a reason people don't use sunpower for everything.

It's expensive and unreliable. It's not economically viable except for generating extra power to meet air conditioning demand in the summer. Abolishing money doesn't change this, money is merely a measure of the relative values of resources used in particular means of production, and the value of the output, to the average person using them.

Are you judging the capabilities of humanity's most advanced technologies by the preview image on that YouTube video?
I'm judging the video's merits by it and other information


Of course solar power is not the answer to the world's problems. Try watching the video.
As I said, video is not an efficient method of honest argumentation.

Reply: A video is just as honest and efficient as any other method of supporting a stance in an argument.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Ragnar_Rahl
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7/19/2011 2:55:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Reply: A video is just as honest and efficient as any other method of supporting a stance in an argument.
I can read text at about 5 times the rate that a speaker can say it understandably.

I can then break it up, analyze it premise by premise, fact check it easily, use a search function if necessary. If there are important facts to check and a complex argument that 5 times multiplier becomes about 50 in the time it takes to get everything analyzed.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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7/19/2011 2:56:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The only advantage of video, unless you're videotaping an actual event that is evidence of something rather than videotaping an argument, is in appeals to emotion, which are, of course, not honest argument.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Tiel
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7/19/2011 3:14:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/19/2011 2:56:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The only advantage of video, unless you're videotaping an actual event that is evidence of something rather than videotaping an argument, is in appeals to emotion, which are, of course, not honest argument.

Reply: No, video can show visual information which can be important and useful. Also, emotion is very important for determining certain factors. Further, a video can relay the same information as text, plus more, therefor it makes it just as efficient or more efficient than text alone. Finally, None of your argument validates your claim at videos not being an honest or efficient method of relaying information. Your arguments against videos not being efficient and honest methods of relaying information are weak and have no justification.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
bkyle
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7/19/2011 3:15:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/19/2011 2:44:48 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I like all the Zeitgeist movies and think they're spot on except for the Venus Project stuff. I even owe Zeitgeist the credit for being the spark that woke me up to the global conspiracy.

But The Venus Project is pure fantasy and will never occur in my lifetime. Not because it's not a viable and rational economic system, but because it would require 50 years of effort to complete and I will be dead by then, so I don't give crap about this great place to live when I'm already DEAD.

How is embracing technology and using the scientific method to arrive at decisions "pure fantasy"?

More importantly, how long do you think humanity can keep up the charade that is the monetary-based economy that provides for your comfortable life? Things can change very quickly (remember the start of the "world-wide banking crisis" just a few years ago that went to crisis level in a weekend?).

Think of how long people can survive when they start to lose their jobs. Now think of how quickly people can lose their jobs. The a recession hits, it's like dominoes falling and only the independently wealthy are relatively safe.

We're seeing the start of world-wide collapse. In your lifetime, you will see the depth of that collapse. I don't want to see it. You don't want to see it. It doesn't matter what we want. Humanity has embraced capitalism, but doesn't give a damn about humanity.
Ragnar_Rahl
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7/19/2011 3:17:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/19/2011 3:14:53 PM, Tiel wrote:
At 7/19/2011 2:56:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The only advantage of video, unless you're videotaping an actual event that is evidence of something rather than videotaping an argument, is in appeals to emotion, which are, of course, not honest argument.

Reply: No, video can show visual information which can be important and useful.
Useful how? importanthow?

Also, emotion is very important for determining certain factors.
Like "How am I going to make people ignore my illogic?"

Further, a video can relay the same information as text, plus more, therefor it makes it just as efficient or more efficient than text alone.
That's not what efficiency means. Do you speak a different language where efficiency means versatility or something?

The definition of being more efficient is having a greater output relative to the input.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.