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Unjustified Stereotypes

innomen
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7/18/2011 9:13:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Honestly now, most stereotypes have some measure of justification behind them. In fact, i can point to people who epitomize a stereotype to the point of cliche.

So I'm just wondering if any are not justified. I think that there really isn't any justification in thinking Polish people are stupid. I'm not even sure where that came from, because I've never seen any greater stupidity in a Polish person than any other European nationality.

Mexicans aren't really lazy, in fact among the Latino community, they are often considered the hardest working. We don't have all that many Mexicans around here, lots of Latinos, but not too many Mexicans, but from i undersand they are pretty hard workers.

Dunno any others. Most seem pretty justified.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/18/2011 9:19:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 9:13:02 AM, innomen wrote:
Honestly now, most stereotypes have some measure of justification behind them. In fact, i can point to people who epitomize a stereotype to the point of cliche.

So I'm just wondering if any are not justified.:

The issue is that even supposing certain stereotypes are often true, they can't of course be considered a fact solely by a person's race, creed, gender, religious affiliation, etc.

But 9/10 times.... it is hilarious.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
feverish
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7/18/2011 10:49:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
All negative stereotypes are unjustified, even the few that may have some statistical basis in reality.

If you believe that a negative attribute can be generally associated with a group of people you will show negative prejudice to individuals from that group. In my opinion that isn't justifiable.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/18/2011 11:16:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 10:49:29 AM, feverish wrote:
All negative stereotypes are unjustified, even the few that may have some statistical basis in reality.

If statistical basis in reality is not the criteria for a general assessment, what is?
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Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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7/18/2011 11:21:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 11:16:40 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 7/18/2011 10:49:29 AM, feverish wrote:
All negative stereotypes are unjustified, even the few that may have some statistical basis in reality.

If statistical basis in reality is not the criteria for a general assessment, what is?

I think it is more the case that general assessments should not be made, but that people should be judged as individuals. That is what I am guessing he means?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Danielle
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7/18/2011 11:26:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 11:21:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I think it is more the case that general assessments should not be made, but that people should be judged as individuals. That is what I am guessing he means?

That's what I believe :) Though the same goes for positive stereotypes. Also, it begs whether or not someone is wrong in repeating a general assessment that may be offensive, even if it has statistical relevance in reality. I guess it depends on the context.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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7/18/2011 11:34:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 11:26:14 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 7/18/2011 11:21:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I think it is more the case that general assessments should not be made, but that people should be judged as individuals. That is what I am guessing he means?

That's what I believe :) Though the same goes for positive stereotypes. Also, it begs whether or not someone is wrong in repeating a general assessment that may be offensive, even if it has statistical relevance in reality. I guess it depends on the context.

It's a funny one isn't it. If the Orange race has an average IQ of 75 and an accurate general assessment of the orange race is that they are less intelligent than other races, to say that would be regarded as racist. Irrespective of that it would be wrong to let it interfere with the marking of their exam papers.

Maybe people should just worry less about being offended or causing offense.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/18/2011 12:02:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
This is somewhat completely off topic (so I apologize to innomen for that, though he might appreciate this). Recently I've been telling him about this amazing bar I found right on the beach, where I go several times a week and just love the atmosphere and always have a fantastic time. Like most popular towns, there is a great disparity of wealth amongst residents. There is a "ghetto" neighborhood where a lot of black people live not too far from where the bar is.

Last weekend, the bouncer who I made friends with told me that they just implemented a dress code, because they didn't like the crowd that was starting to attend (i.e., a lot of loud black people who often started problems). Now obviously forbidding things like baggy jeans and big chains is passive aggressively racist, even though many white people wear them. Furthermore it would be absurd to suggest that even people who do wear those things will automatically act a certain way.

However I do think the bar should be able to somewhat control the environment of their establishment. In addition, dressing a particular way has been known to affect the way people behave in certain situations. For these reasons I understand the idea behind these policies, though they obviously often suck. I was just told that the bar is now imposing a cover charge in the hopes of impacting the crowd that attends. This totally sucks for me and will likely drive away one of their favorite and most lucrative customers, however it will probably benefit them insofar as most likely getting them a more mild crowd and extra money.

/Off topic story pertaining to stereotypes
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brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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7/18/2011 12:19:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 9:13:02 AM, innomen wrote:
Honestly now, most stereotypes have some measure of justification behind them. In fact, i can point to people who epitomize a stereotype to the point of cliche.

So I'm just wondering if any are not justified. I think that there really isn't any justification in thinking Polish people are stupid. I'm not even sure where that came from, because I've never seen any greater stupidity in a Polish person than any other European nationality.

Mexicans aren't really lazy, in fact among the Latino community, they are often considered the hardest working. We don't have all that many Mexicans around here, lots of Latinos, but not too many Mexicans, but from i undersand they are pretty hard workers.

Dunno any others. Most seem pretty justified.

In the UK Polish people are positively stereotyped as hard working while the Irish are labelled as stupid. "What's the shortest book in the world? The Catalogue of Irish Inventions" and so on.

Meanwhile, Mexicans are stereotyped as sexually perverse: a Mexican picnic is sex between one woman and two men, while a Mexican barbeque is sex between one woman and three men - and I won't lower the tone any further by telling you what a ‘Dirty Sanchez' is.

And here it is black people that are portrayed as lazy.
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brian_eggleston
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7/18/2011 12:24:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
By the way, why is it that many Americans often self-identify themselves as Italian-American, Polish-American, Irish-American and so on, but never English-American?

Is being of English descent something that shameful?
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SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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7/18/2011 12:34:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 12:24:58 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
By the way, why is it that many Americans often self-identify themselves as Italian-American, Polish-American, Irish-American and so on, but never English-American?

Is being of English descent something that shameful?

They think it's too generic to be associated with the people who created one of the largest and most powerful empires the world has ever seen that has also oppressed many peoples of many different nationalities.

http://www.southparkstudios.com...
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/18/2011 12:36:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Little stereotypes like "blacks like grape grape" don't seem that harmful in my opinion. Bigger stereotypes that are a judge of performance such as "blacks do bad in school" or "asians can't drive" are a lot worse. However, one can't someone's right to freedom of speech.
Open borders debate:
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brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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7/18/2011 12:38:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 12:34:01 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
At 7/18/2011 12:24:58 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
By the way, why is it that many Americans often self-identify themselves as Italian-American, Polish-American, Irish-American and so on, but never English-American?

Is being of English descent something that shameful?

They think it's too generic to be associated with the people who created the largest and most powerful empires the world has ever seen that has also enlightened many peoples of many different nationalities.

Fixed.
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brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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7/18/2011 12:40:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 12:34:01 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
At 7/18/2011 12:24:58 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
By the way, why is it that many Americans often self-identify themselves as Italian-American, Polish-American, Irish-American and so on, but never English-American?

Is being of English descent something that shameful?

They think it's too generic to be associated with the people who created one of the largest and most powerful empires the world has ever seen that has also oppressed many peoples of many different nationalities.

http://www.southparkstudios.com...

Clicked the South Park Link and it said "Sorry UK and Ireland, due to copyright and other legal restrictions, South Park content from this site cannot be viewed in your country."

What a flippin' swizz!
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SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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7/18/2011 12:44:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 12:38:22 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 7/18/2011 12:34:01 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
At 7/18/2011 12:24:58 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
By the way, why is it that many Americans often self-identify themselves as Italian-American, Polish-American, Irish-American and so on, but never English-American?

Is being of English descent something that shameful?

They think it's too generic to be associated with the people who created the largest and most powerful empires the world has ever seen that has also enlightened many peoples of many different nationalities.

Fixed.

http://knowyourmeme.com...
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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7/18/2011 12:47:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 12:40:32 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 7/18/2011 12:34:01 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
At 7/18/2011 12:24:58 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
By the way, why is it that many Americans often self-identify themselves as Italian-American, Polish-American, Irish-American and so on, but never English-American?

Is being of English descent something that shameful?

They think it's too generic to be associated with the people who created one of the largest and most powerful empires the world has ever seen that has also oppressed many peoples of many different nationalities.

http://www.southparkstudios.com...

Clicked the South Park Link and it said "Sorry UK and Ireland, due to copyright and other legal restrictions, South Park content from this site cannot be viewed in your country."

What a flippin' swizz!

Serves you right for editing my post.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/18/2011 12:59:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
clear jealousy in stereotyping the irish as stupid :P my county gets the same treatment from the other counties for the same reasons.. "how do you confuse a kerry man? put two shovels in front of him and tell him to take his pick" and so on... while we're clearly the best of the lot...
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
brian_eggleston
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7/18/2011 1:21:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 12:59:02 PM, el-badgero wrote:
clear jealousy in stereotyping the irish as stupid :P my county gets the same treatment from the other counties for the same reasons.. "how do you confuse a kerry man? put two shovels in front of him and tell him to take his pick" and so on... while we're clearly the best of the lot...

So who do Kerrymen ridicule for being stupid
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feverish
Posts: 2,716
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7/18/2011 2:50:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 11:21:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/18/2011 11:16:40 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 7/18/2011 10:49:29 AM, feverish wrote:
All negative stereotypes are unjustified, even the few that may have some statistical basis in reality.

If statistical basis in reality is not the criteria for a general assessment, what is?

I think it is more the case that general assessments should not be made, but that people should be judged as individuals. That is what I am guessing he means?

Yeah, pretty much this thanks C_N.

It's one thing to make a rational assessment of statistics and conclude that of all people convicted of robbery, a large proportion are black men. It's entirely another to make the stereotypical assumption that most black men you meet are going to try and rob you.

Whether or not there is any "truth" to casual or serious negative stereotypes, it's profoundly unfair, therefore unjustifiable to go round assuming a gay man is automatically gonna be bad at sports, or a woman is almost certain to be bad at parking or whatever.
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/18/2011 3:03:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 1:21:47 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 7/18/2011 12:59:02 PM, el-badgero wrote:
clear jealousy in stereotyping the irish as stupid :P my county gets the same treatment from the other counties for the same reasons.. "how do you confuse a kerry man? put two shovels in front of him and tell him to take his pick" and so on... while we're clearly the best of the lot...

So who do Kerrymen ridicule for being stupid

stupid people... if needs be. and people who don't drink. that just doesn't make any sense at all.
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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7/18/2011 3:31:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 2:50:13 PM, feverish wrote:
At 7/18/2011 11:21:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/18/2011 11:16:40 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 7/18/2011 10:49:29 AM, feverish wrote:
All negative stereotypes are unjustified, even the few that may have some statistical basis in reality.

If statistical basis in reality is not the criteria for a general assessment, what is?

I think it is more the case that general assessments should not be made, but that people should be judged as individuals. That is what I am guessing he means?

Yeah, pretty much this thanks C_N.

It's one thing to make a rational assessment of statistics and conclude that of all people convicted of robbery, a large proportion are black men. It's entirely another to make the stereotypical assumption that most black men you meet are going to try and rob you.

Whether or not there is any "truth" to casual or serious negative stereotypes, it's profoundly unfair, therefore unjustifiable to go round assuming a gay man is automatically gonna be bad at sports, or a woman is almost certain to be bad at parking or whatever.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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7/18/2011 5:37:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 9:13:02 AM, innomen wrote:
Honestly now, most stereotypes have some measure of justification behind them. In fact, i can point to people who epitomize a stereotype to the point of cliche.

So I'm just wondering if any are not justified. I think that there really isn't any justification in thinking Polish people are stupid. I'm not even sure where that came from, because I've never seen any greater stupidity in a Polish person than any other European nationality.

Mexicans aren't really lazy, in fact among the Latino community, they are often considered the hardest working. We don't have all that many Mexicans around here, lots of Latinos, but not too many Mexicans, but from i undersand they are pretty hard workers.

Dunno any others. Most seem pretty justified.

Justification or historical roots?

The "justification" behind Jews being greedy has to do with the state of religion in europe several centuries ago, not the amount of Jews who like money. Same with jews being bankers.

It's quite easy to point out people who epitomize stereotypes. I know a lazy mexican, a dumb Polish (not pure Pole), and greedy, snot-nosed jews.

However, I would say that certain stereotypes can be rooted in fact. For instance, if a woman is born and lived in Israel till age 21, you know she has served in the military. Thus, an israeli woman is more likely to be physically/mentally tough than a women who grow up in a less physically demanding society (ex. industrialized parts of America).
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/18/2011 6:31:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 12:24:58 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
By the way, why is it that many Americans often self-identify themselves as Italian-American, Polish-American, Irish-American and so on, but never English-American?

Is being of English descent something that shameful?:

Well, as long as we're on stereotypes... Caucasian people of English descent often think that hyphentated Americans are useless. Since I'm a mutt with English, Spanish, French, Irish, Scottish blood, it would be pretty silly to identify myself as anything other than, simply, American.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
SuperRobotWars
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7/18/2011 6:36:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 6:31:25 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 7/18/2011 12:24:58 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
By the way, why is it that many Americans often self-identify themselves as Italian-American, Polish-American, Irish-American and so on, but never English-American?

Is being of English descent something that shameful?:

Well, as long as we're on stereotypes... Caucasian people of English descent often think that hyphentated Americans are useless. Since I'm a mutt with English, Spanish, French, Irish, Scottish blood, it would be pretty silly to identify myself as anything other than, simply, American.

Aren't we all just mutts in the end?
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
innomen
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7/19/2011 3:02:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 6:31:25 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 7/18/2011 12:24:58 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
By the way, why is it that many Americans often self-identify themselves as Italian-American, Polish-American, Irish-American and so on, but never English-American?

Is being of English descent something that shameful?:

Well, as long as we're on stereotypes... Caucasian people of English descent often think that hyphentated Americans are useless. Since I'm a mutt with English, Spanish, French, Irish, Scottish blood, it would be pretty silly to identify myself as anything other than, simply, American.

I agree with you of course. I generally just identify myself as an American, since that's how i am considered by anyone outside this country, but internally it does seem to have some meaning to some people. Because i have a very irish name, and I guess look irish, went to BC, etc. it's actually helped me out a bit in the Boston area, but in reality it's all kind of stupid, and i am an American.

I think Americans have a big identity problem.
BennyW
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7/19/2011 4:42:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Judge for yourself after watching this
You didn't build that-Obama
It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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7/19/2011 7:21:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
In my experience, they can be a bit unfair. As a black man, born and raised in South Central, Los Angeles, you get some remarks when you tell people where your from. It's just something you get over. I live all the way in Hawaii now and people still ask me if I was part of a gang or if I've been to jail. I'm not complaining though. Shattering those expectations and proving that,race, religion, sexual orientation none of that matters, actually feels pretty good. I tell you who gets it worse: the gays.
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
innomen
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7/19/2011 8:17:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/19/2011 7:21:46 AM, MarquisX wrote:
In my experience, they can be a bit unfair. As a black man, born and raised in South Central, Los Angeles, you get some remarks when you tell people where your from. It's just something you get over. I live all the way in Hawaii now and people still ask me if I was part of a gang or if I've been to jail. I'm not complaining though. Shattering those expectations and proving that,race, religion, sexual orientation none of that matters, actually feels pretty good. I tell you who gets it worse: the gays.

But i will be the first to tell you there is justification in the gay stereotype. The problem is no one really can say if the actual numbers of those who exemplify the stereotype out number those who do not.