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Totalitarian Utilitarianism

Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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9/6/2011 5:27:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
What are your guy's opinions on this ideology?
Personally I am Pro Totalitarian Utilitarianism.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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9/6/2011 5:58:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/6/2011 5:27:41 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What are your guy's opinions on this ideology?
Personally I am Pro Totalitarian Utilitarianism.

It is inherently flawed, because the greatest "good" is going to be subjective. Unless we apply an objective value system, like say, "economic" good or something. In which case, there is still going to be disagreement as different individuals will want to apply different measuring sticks.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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9/6/2011 6:19:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/6/2011 5:58:16 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/6/2011 5:27:41 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What are your guy's opinions on this ideology?
Personally I am Pro Totalitarian Utilitarianism.

It is inherently flawed, because the greatest "good" is going to be subjective. Unless we apply an objective value system, like say, "economic" good or something. In which case, there is still going to be disagreement as different individuals will want to apply different measuring sticks.

I think the general flaw is that everyone is going to have a different idea of what is "best" or what yeilds the most "good," not just amoung policy deciders, but amoung the people. If they have different ideas of what is "good" then they will view their government as doing things that are "not good" (as is the problem with any government).

Forcing it upon them (through the totalitarian method) runs the risk of building a pent up resentment that leads to rebellion and revolution (and often death to the leaders).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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9/6/2011 6:56:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/6/2011 5:27:41 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What are your guy's opinions on this ideology?
Personally I am Pro Totalitarian Utilitarianism.

Utilitarianism is, by nature, a flawed system. It restricts self-determination. And so does totalitarianism.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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9/6/2011 7:40:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/6/2011 6:19:59 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/6/2011 5:58:16 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/6/2011 5:27:41 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What are your guy's opinions on this ideology?
Personally I am Pro Totalitarian Utilitarianism.

It is inherently flawed, because the greatest "good" is going to be subjective. Unless we apply an objective value system, like say, "economic" good or something. In which case, there is still going to be disagreement as different individuals will want to apply different measuring sticks.

I think the general flaw is that everyone is going to have a different idea of what is "best" or what yeilds the most "good," not just amoung policy deciders, but amoung the people. If they have different ideas of what is "good" then they will view their government as doing things that are "not good" (as is the problem with any government).

Forcing it upon them (through the totalitarian method) runs the risk of building a pent up resentment that leads to rebellion and revolution (and often death to the leaders).

Yes, that is true. Everyone has a different opinion on right or wrong. But with a totalitarian state, only one person decides whether it's correct. And in an effective totalitarian state, a revolution would not happen due to much greater military intervention. The soldiers aren't afraid to kill their own people. (Stalin rule)
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Plato_ATODT
Posts: 21
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9/6/2011 8:19:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/6/2011 7:40:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 9/6/2011 6:19:59 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/6/2011 5:58:16 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/6/2011 5:27:41 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What are your guy's opinions on this ideology?
Personally I am Pro Totalitarian Utilitarianism.

It is inherently flawed, because the greatest "good" is going to be subjective. Unless we apply an objective value system, like say, "economic" good or something. In which case, there is still going to be disagreement as different individuals will want to apply different measuring sticks.

I think the general flaw is that everyone is going to have a different idea of what is "best" or what yeilds the most "good," not just amoung policy deciders, but amoung the people. If they have different ideas of what is "good" then they will view their government as doing things that are "not good" (as is the problem with any government).

Forcing it upon them (through the totalitarian method) runs the risk of building a pent up resentment that leads to rebellion and revolution (and often death to the leaders).


Yes, that is true. Everyone has a different opinion on right or wrong. But with a totalitarian state, only one person decides whether it's correct. And in an effective totalitarian state, a revolution would not happen due to much greater military intervention. The soldiers aren't afraid to kill their own people. (Stalin rule)

It depends on who the leader is. If this is an Aristocracy, than the people would have no desire to rebel as the leaders would be able to actually achieve success and prosperity for their people.
The Philosopher King will rule when the time is right.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/6/2011 8:31:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/6/2011 5:27:41 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What are your guy's opinions on this ideology?
Personally I am Pro Totalitarian Utilitarianism.

Utilitarianism breaks down even on an individual level when you are given specific cases. For instance, the entire suffering of a town can be reduced to the suffering of a single girl by locking her in prison. The town's suffering is dispersed over the people so that for any given individual, the girl in prison will suffer more even though the total suffering of the town is greater than the suffering of the single girl.

How do you qualify that trade-off? You'll end up creating a scenario specific model so that Rule Utilitarianism turns in Act Utilitarianism.

Speaking of which, is this totalitarian endorsing rule or act?
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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9/6/2011 8:35:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/6/2011 8:31:35 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/6/2011 5:27:41 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What are your guy's opinions on this ideology?
Personally I am Pro Totalitarian Utilitarianism.

Utilitarianism breaks down even on an individual level when you are given specific cases. For instance, the entire suffering of a town can be reduced to the suffering of a single girl by locking her in prison. The town's suffering is dispersed over the people so that for any given individual, the girl in prison will suffer more even though the total suffering of the town is greater than the suffering of the single girl.

How do you qualify that trade-off? You'll end up creating a scenario specific model so that Rule Utilitarianism turns in Act Utilitarianism.

Speaking of which, is this totalitarian endorsing rule or act?

Well there's a measurement problem as well. How do you measure the suffering of the single girl vs. the suffering of the entire population.
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OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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9/6/2011 9:04:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm a consequentialist, and when I read this title I immediately thought of Huxley's Brave New World. Mill distinguishes between higher and lower pleasures - it's not just the chemical reaction of "happiness" that Mill supports (though I couldn't exclude Bentham from that charge AFAIK). In order to avoid these types of straw men I usually just substitute "happiness" for "well being" - but anything with a "totalitarian" in front of it I'm immediately writing off.