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Revolution or Reform

Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/27/2009 10:44:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
1. Eventually the poor and disenfranchised in America and Europe will rise up, overpower their evil capitalist masters and install a worker's paradise. But nuclear weapons may make this idea negligible.

2. The Communist Party of the US will eventually gain significant votes, and eventually over take the Democrats, forcing the Dems to merge with the GOP to form the GOCP (Grand Ol' Capitalist Party), ushering in a new era of partisan bickering never seen before. Because it is usually more youth attracted to leftist politics, it will only be a matter of time before the GOCP members simply die. Cryogenics may make this negligible.

3. We have already past the 'Communist era', and we're now in the clear. Which means the past 18 years have been the end of humanity. Cheers!
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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4/27/2009 2:41:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I think we will resist until finally the democracy mob "reforms" our system.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/28/2009 9:23:59 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Nuclear bomb, that's how, which I suppose means revolution. If everyone's dead, everyone's equal.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/28/2009 12:59:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/28/2009 9:23:59 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Nuclear bomb, that's how, which I suppose means revolution. If everyone's dead, everyone's equal.

I guarantee you'll find a group willing to say "we died better than the rest of you" marked on their gravestones.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/28/2009 3:44:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
True, but they'll have done it in the past.

What the hell, the communists aren't just going to redistribute wealth, but redistribute the past? How'll that work?

^_^
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/28/2009 3:47:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/28/2009 3:44:49 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
True, but they'll have done it in the past.

What the hell, the communists aren't just going to redistribute wealth, but redistribute the past? How'll that work?

^_^

Look at Cuba, ever notice their cars?
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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4/28/2009 4:02:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/28/2009 3:44:49 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
True, but they'll have done it in the past.

What the hell, the communists aren't just going to redistribute wealth, but redistribute the past? How'll that work?

^_^

Fascism. It's not the past if no one remembers it.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/28/2009 4:54:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/28/2009 3:47:58 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/28/2009 3:44:49 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
True, but they'll have done it in the past.

What the hell, the communists aren't just going to redistribute wealth, but redistribute the past? How'll that work?

^_^

Look at Cuba, ever notice their cars?

Hehe
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/29/2009 8:34:39 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Someone has no sense of humor.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/29/2009 3:47:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
No no, the facts that the motive of communism is death and the only way to achieve communism is death are entirely unrelated :).
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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4/29/2009 3:48:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Communism doesn't work.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/29/2009 3:51:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 3:48:40 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
Communism doesn't work.

Are you kidding? Look at glorious Russia! Oh wait, that's petro-dollars...
What about China? Oh right, they're not really communist.
Vietnam? Dictatorship.
North Korea? Juche is NOT communism, it is a cult of personality.
Cuba? See Vietnam.
Canada? Only North American country to actually elect a Communist member of Parliament, who was then arrested for treason...

Ok, communism doesn't work.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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4/29/2009 6:45:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 3:51:10 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/29/2009 3:48:40 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
Communism doesn't work.

Are you kidding? Look at glorious Russia! Oh wait, that's petro-dollars...
What about China? Oh right, they're not really communist.
Vietnam? Dictatorship.
North Korea? Juche is NOT communism, it is a cult of personality.
Cuba? See Vietnam.
Canada? Only North American country to actually elect a Communist member of Parliament, who was then arrested for treason...

Ok, communism doesn't work.

Which system of commnism do you endorse?
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/29/2009 6:49:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 6:45:25 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Which system of commnism do you endorse?

Communism? I don't support communism. The closest I can get to communism is a social democrat, but I don't even think I'm that.
If I had to choose though, definitely Chinese communism. Unless I can get Russia's petro-dollars.....
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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4/29/2009 6:59:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 6:49:47 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/29/2009 6:45:25 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Which system of commnism do you endorse?

Communism? I don't support communism. The closest I can get to communism is a social democrat, but I don't even think I'm that.
If I had to choose though, definitely Chinese communism. Unless I can get Russia's petro-dollars.....

I mean which form do you consider to be "pure communism"? This was a common debate between Trotsky and Stalin. And it has seen many differing opinions throughout history.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/29/2009 7:05:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 6:59:37 PM, wjmelements wrote:
I mean which form do you consider to be "pure communism"? This was a common debate between Trotsky and Stalin. And it has seen many differing opinions throughout history.

Ah, I misunderstood your question then.

Personally, I think Trotskyism is a more 'pure' form of communism. I find Stalinism much too autocratic. Though if you really want to get into the theory, Bolsheviks probably got it down best.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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4/29/2009 7:07:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 7:05:52 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/29/2009 6:59:37 PM, wjmelements wrote:
I mean which form do you consider to be "pure communism"? This was a common debate between Trotsky and Stalin. And it has seen many differing opinions throughout history.

Ah, I misunderstood your question then.

Personally, I think Trotskyism is a more 'pure' form of communism. I find Stalinism much too autocratic. Though if you really want to get into the theory, Bolsheviks probably got it down best.

You consider Trotskyism to be more correct, but you do not say it is perfectly pure. What do you believe is "pure"?
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/29/2009 7:23:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 7:07:49 PM, wjmelements wrote:
You consider Trotskyism to be more correct, but you do not say it is perfectly pure. What do you believe is "pure"?

I can't say I know enough about communism to say what is truly pure.
What I do know of the theory though leads me to believe that Trotskyism is probably the 'pure' form of communism. Centralization, classless societies and the permanent revolution theory seem more in line with the original concept, and it is still instituted inside of a democratic system. As I said before, Stalinism is too autocratic for me to think it is the 'pure' form, for the simple fact that once you have to start suppressing dissent as a key principle in keeping together your system, the 'classless society' has obviously failed. That is not in line with the original intents.
wjmelements
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4/30/2009 2:45:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 4/29/2009 7:23:33 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/29/2009 7:07:49 PM, wjmelements wrote:
You consider Trotskyism to be more correct, but you do not say it is perfectly pure. What do you believe is "pure"?

I can't say I know enough about communism to say what is truly pure.
What I do know of the theory though leads me to believe that Trotskyism is probably the 'pure' form of communism. Centralization, classless societies and the permanent revolution theory seem more in line with the original concept, and it is still instituted inside of a democratic system. As I said before, Stalinism is too autocratic for me to think it is the 'pure' form, for the simple fact that once you have to start suppressing dissent as a key principle in keeping together your system, the 'classless society' has obviously failed. That is not in line with the original intents.

Democratic socialism seems about right, though I haven't read the Communist Manifesto (and don't plan to until next year), it seems about like what was intended.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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5/8/2009 8:23:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I just read the Manifesto. Marx and Engles clearly wanted the Proletariat to take over democratic governments and then establish communism. One might argue though that in non-democratic governments that the Communists would prefer to overthrow their governments in some impressive revolution.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/8/2009 8:44:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/8/2009 8:23:24 PM, wjmelements wrote:
I just read the Manifesto. Marx and Engles clearly wanted the Proletariat to take over democratic governments and then establish communism. One might argue though that in non-democratic governments that the Communists would prefer to overthrow their governments in some impressive revolution.

I'm guessing it depends on your situation. I'd think that even if they did overthrow the non-democratic government, they'd want to put in a democratic institution.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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5/8/2009 9:04:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/8/2009 8:44:49 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/8/2009 8:23:24 PM, wjmelements wrote:
I just read the Manifesto. Marx and Engles clearly wanted the Proletariat to take over democratic governments and then establish communism. One might argue though that in non-democratic governments that the Communists would prefer to overthrow their governments in some impressive revolution.

I'm guessing it depends on your situation. I'd think that even if they did overthrow the non-democratic government, they'd want to put in a democratic institution.

Of course. How does that contradict me?
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/8/2009 9:21:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/8/2009 9:04:24 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Of course. How does that contradict me?

It doesn't, I was just noting that fact.
brycef
Posts: 160
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6/14/2009 10:17:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
All serious revolutionaries are reformists, at least according to Chomsky. People push for reform until they get to the point where they feel that they can't get much farther within the current societal structure, and that's when they come to the conclusion that revolution is necessary.