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Is Music Necessary To Live?

GeoLaureate8
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9/13/2011 1:06:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I believe the answer is yes. I thought of this when Mengele (or some other white supremacist) said black people contributed absolutely nothing great or useful for society pointing out areas like science, inventions, mathematics, philosophers, etc.

While the above is obviously not true, it is certain that music is indeed an important aspect of society and I don't understand why Mengele dismissed it.

If there was no music in the world, everyone's level of well-being would be drastically decreased, perhaps even to a critical level. When people are feeling down, music brings solace, comfort, or a medium for release. When people are performing mundane tasks, music helps them get through it. Imagine driving your car for long periods of time or being stuck in traffic without music. Without music, dancing wouldn't exist, movies would be crap and boring, no concerts, no nothing.

Music actually physically resonates with your brain waves bringing your consciousness to a blissful or positive state. Music has such powerful psychological effects that it can dictate mood, influence peoples thinking, and relieve stress.

Imagine if music and anything that resembled song was completely absent from the world. It would be a cold, barren, dead place and arguably unlivable.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Just1Voice
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9/13/2011 2:02:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Music serves far more functions than merely entertainment, that is certain.

For those who make their living in the various music related fields, from performance to music therapy would certainly argue that it is necessary for THEM to live, and those who benefit from music education and music therapy might argue the same.

The profound influence of Afro-Cuban music on the development of modern music cannot be denied (this I can say with confidence, as I have discussed the history of the development of modern music in-depth with internationally recognized experts in the field).
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/13/2011 2:14:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
1. I'm quite disheartened that all you could think of against Mengele's racism was that black people make music, or at least that's what comes to mind. I think in response to Mengele's nonsense of Obama, MLK, George Washington Carver, the inventor of the traffic light etc.

2. There are people who do not like music all together at all. Are they all somehow dead?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/13/2011 2:21:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Is music stimulating? Yes. Can it improve your mental or physical health? Under certain conditions, yes. Can it bring a group together via ritual, making them a stronger unit than they otherwise would be? Yes.

Will you die if you never hear music?

Don't be a moron.
kelly224
Posts: 952
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9/13/2011 2:24:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 1:06:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I believe the answer is yes. I thought of this when Mengele (or some other white supremacist) said black people contributed absolutely nothing great or useful for society pointing out areas like science, inventions, mathematics, philosophers, etc.

While the above is obviously not true, it is certain that music is indeed an important aspect of society and I don't understand why Mengele dismissed it.

If there was no music in the world, everyone's level of well-being would be drastically decreased, perhaps even to a critical level. When people are feeling down, music brings solace, comfort, or a medium for release. When people are performing mundane tasks, music helps them get through it. Imagine driving your car for long periods of time or being stuck in traffic without music. Without music, dancing wouldn't exist, movies would be crap and boring, no concerts, no nothing.

Music actually physically resonates with your brain waves bringing your consciousness to a blissful or positive state. Music has such powerful psychological effects that it can dictate mood, influence peoples thinking, and relieve stress.

Imagine if music and anything that resembled song was completely absent from the world. It would be a cold, barren, dead place and arguably unlivable.

yes cause I would murder somewbody if there were not, just being honest. Music speaks to feelings that can't be expressed in words sometimes.
Just1Voice
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9/13/2011 2:24:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 2:14:29 PM, 000ike wrote:
1. I'm quite disheartened that all you could think of against Mengele's racism was that black people make music, or at least that's what comes to mind. I think in response to Mengele's nonsense of Obama, MLK, George Washington Carver, the inventor of the traffic light etc.

2. There are people who do not like music all together at all. Are they all somehow dead?

The post asked inf music was necessary to live. Not if is was necessary for everyone to live. If it is necessary for some, that is enough. Consider, if you will, the importance of music in the entertainment industry overall. Without it, many film scenes fall flat and many events that incorporate music would fail to attract an audience. The number of people whose livelihood is at least partly dependent on the existence of music is far greater than the number of people who directly make their living producing music.
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/13/2011 2:28:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
That ignores the role of substitution goods, Voice.

Though certainly, music is valuable.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/13/2011 2:32:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 2:24:33 PM, Just1Voice wrote:
At 9/13/2011 2:14:29 PM, 000ike wrote:
1. I'm quite disheartened that all you could think of against Mengele's racism was that black people make music, or at least that's what comes to mind. I think in response to Mengele's nonsense of Obama, MLK, George Washington Carver, the inventor of the traffic light etc.

2. There are people who do not like music all together at all. Are they all somehow dead?

The post asked inf music was necessary to live. Not if is was necessary for everyone to live. If it is necessary for some, that is enough.

I don't follow. I'm pretty sure that the only life necessities are food, shelter, water, air, and clothing, that along with some illness treatment availability. That which one's body cannot function properly without is a NECESSITY. That which one needs to be happy is a DESIRE. Music is not a necessity for anyone.

Consider, if you will, the importance of music in the entertainment industry overall. Without it, many film scenes fall flat and many events that incorporate music would fail to attract an audience. The number of people whose livelihood is at least partly dependent on the existence of music is far greater than the number of people who directly make their living producing music.

I love music myself, I've played the piano for 10 years, violin for 6, flute for 5. Its a huge part of my own life, but if I went deaf, I would not die, nor would I fall into depression really. The OP's post is a highly erroneous exaggeration.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Just1Voice
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9/13/2011 2:35:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 2:28:11 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
That ignores the role of substitution goods, Voice.

Though certainly, music is valuable.

You might have a point if everyone were deaf, but no "substitution goods" exist for music that are not music. This was proven by John Cage (composer, performer, and possibly the greatest aesthetic philosopher since Aristotle).
Just1Voice
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9/13/2011 2:42:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 2:32:54 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/13/2011 2:24:33 PM, Just1Voice wrote:
The post asked inf music was necessary to live. Not if is was necessary for everyone to live. If it is necessary for some, that is enough.

I don't follow. I'm pretty sure that the only life necessities are food, shelter, water, air, and clothing, that along with some illness treatment availability. That which one's body cannot function properly without is a NECESSITY. That which one needs to be happy is a DESIRE. Music is not a necessity for anyone.


Consider that before the invention of the written word, we passed information down from one generation to the next as oral history. The ability of people to remember that oral history relied on its musicality. Without music our species would never have retained enough information to develop a need for the written word, and thus would never have developed to this state of technology.
000ike
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9/13/2011 2:50:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 2:42:01 PM, Just1Voice wrote:
At 9/13/2011 2:32:54 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/13/2011 2:24:33 PM, Just1Voice wrote:
The post asked inf music was necessary to live. Not if is was necessary for everyone to live. If it is necessary for some, that is enough.

I don't follow. I'm pretty sure that the only life necessities are food, shelter, water, air, and clothing, that along with some illness treatment availability. That which one's body cannot function properly without is a NECESSITY. That which one needs to be happy is a DESIRE. Music is not a necessity for anyone.


Consider that before the invention of the written word, we passed information down from one generation to the next as oral history. The ability of people to remember that oral history relied on its musicality. Without music our species would never have retained enough information to develop a need for the written word, and thus would never have developed to this state of technology.

You're confusing the issue through 2 offenses. One, you're mixing music and oration whereas they are in no way associated with each other. Language is not music, music is not language. I hope we don't get sucked into silly semantics on some heretical definition of music. Two, you have still not proved how music is a necessity. A necessity is BOUND by literal survival and perpetuation of human life. Just because people may not have communicated orally does not mean that the human race would have died, or anything along those lines.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
GeoLaureate8
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9/13/2011 3:03:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 2:14:29 PM, 000ike wrote:
1. I'm quite disheartened that all you could think of against Mengele's racism was that black people make music, or at least that's what comes to mind. I think in response to Mengele's nonsense of Obama, MLK, George Washington Carver, the inventor of the traffic light etc.

Strawman. I didn't say or imply music is the only contribution from black people. On the contrary i said that "the above is obviously not true" referencing Mengeles claim that black people didn't contribute in the fields I listed.

2. There are people who do not like music all together at all. Are they all somehow dead?

I've met people like that. I'm sure their life is that much less tolerable and enjoyable, though despite them not liking music, they still hear music many times throughout their life time. You can't escape from music.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/13/2011 3:11:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 3:03:29 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/13/2011 2:14:29 PM, 000ike wrote:
1. I'm quite disheartened that all you could think of against Mengele's racism was that black people make music, or at least that's what comes to mind. I think in response to Mengele's nonsense of Obama, MLK, George Washington Carver, the inventor of the traffic light etc.

Strawman. I didn't say or imply music is the only contribution from black people. On the contrary i said that "the above is obviously not true" referencing Mengeles claim that black people didn't contribute in the fields I listed.

Nothing irritates me quite like when you guys spit out logical fallacies when out of the debate setting. What are you going to do when someone violates the rules of logic in a conversation, shout "red herring" like a baby? In any case, That ABSOLUTELY was not a strawman. If you paid any attention to what I said, I wrote you'd see that I said ...or at least that's what comes to mind." It clearly came to your mind that black people make a lot of music, when Mengele spoke racist claims. It would most likely not have come to your mind had it been any other race. THAT is what I was referring to, and you know as well as I that it is true.

2. There are people who do not like music all together at all. Are they all somehow dead?

I've met people like that. I'm sure their life is that much less tolerable and enjoyable, though despite them not liking music, they still hear music many times throughout their life time. You can't escape from music.

good lord, I'll let someone else deal with this, I've exhausted my capacity to reason with you.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Just1Voice
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9/13/2011 3:16:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 2:50:46 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/13/2011 2:42:01 PM, Just1Voice wrote:
Consider that before the invention of the written word, we passed information down from one generation to the next as oral history. The ability of people to remember that oral history relied on its musicality. Without music our species would never have retained enough information to develop a need for the written word, and thus would never have developed to this state of technology.

You're confusing the issue through 2 offenses. One, you're mixing music and oration whereas they are in no way associated with each other. Language is not music, music is not language. I hope we don't get sucked into silly semantics on some heretical definition of music. Two, you have still not proved how music is a necessity. A necessity is BOUND by literal survival and perpetuation of human life. Just because people may not have communicated orally does not mean that the human race would have died, or anything along those lines.

Music is integral to memorizing oral history on the scale that the pre-historic humans had to memorize it, and is absolutely distinct in that from simple oration. Music is received and processed in a different part of the brain than language is. The incorporation of music in combination with words imprints itself into our long term memory faster and remains easier to access than mere words alone.

Music and our creative impulses as well as our technical proficiency with using tools are all products of the same processes. That we would develop music was an inevitable outgrowth of the same evolutionary traits that have made us the dominant species on the planet.
000ike
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9/13/2011 3:23:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 3:16:55 PM, Just1Voice wrote:
At 9/13/2011 2:50:46 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/13/2011 2:42:01 PM, Just1Voice wrote:
Consider that before the invention of the written word, we passed information down from one generation to the next as oral history. The ability of people to remember that oral history relied on its musicality. Without music our species would never have retained enough information to develop a need for the written word, and thus would never have developed to this state of technology.

You're confusing the issue through 2 offenses. One, you're mixing music and oration whereas they are in no way associated with each other. Language is not music, music is not language. I hope we don't get sucked into silly semantics on some heretical definition of music. Two, you have still not proved how music is a necessity. A necessity is BOUND by literal survival and perpetuation of human life. Just because people may not have communicated orally does not mean that the human race would have died, or anything along those lines.

Music is integral to memorizing oral history on the scale that the pre-historic humans had to memorize it, and is absolutely distinct in that from simple oration. Music is received and processed in a different part of the brain than language is. The incorporation of music in combination with words imprints itself into our long term memory faster and remains easier to access than mere words alone.

Music and our creative impulses as well as our technical proficiency with using tools are all products of the same processes. That we would develop music was an inevitable outgrowth of the same evolutionary traits that have made us the dominant species on the planet.

but would we DIE without all of that? No. So it is not a necessity. The logic is actually quite simple really. I will concede if the OP clarifies that he is not going by the strict definition of a necessity. If he really is going by that definition, then no matter how intricate the argument, we will still arrive at the same conclusion, whether or not you write an essay, article or book on the argument, you can never be correct if arguing for that which is factually incorrect.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/13/2011 3:52:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 3:11:58 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/13/2011 3:03:29 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/13/2011 2:14:29 PM, 000ike wrote:
1. I'm quite disheartened that all you could think of against Mengele's racism was that black people make music, or at least that's what comes to mind. I think in response to Mengele's nonsense of Obama, MLK, George Washington Carver, the inventor of the traffic light etc.

Strawman. I didn't say or imply music is the only contribution from black people. On the contrary i said that "the above is obviously not true" referencing Mengeles claim that black people didn't contribute in the fields I listed.

Nothing irritates me quite like when you guys spit out logical fallacies when out of the debate setting.

It's not something I do often, strawman is rather basic and not intended to dismantle an opponents argument, and I've seen you use fallacies in the forums as well.

What are you going to do when someone violates the rules of logic in a conversation, shout "red herring"

Yes, actually I have used logical fallacies in real life conversation.

In any case, That ABSOLUTELY was not a strawman. If you paid any attention to what I said, I wrote you'd see that I said ...or at least that's what comes to mind." It clearly came to your mind that black people make a lot of music, when Mengele spoke racist claims. It would most likely not have come to your mind had it been any other race. THAT is what I was referring to, and you know as well as I that it is true.

Wrong. What came to mind was that I know Mengele agrees that black peope contributed greatly to music, but that he refused to acknowedge music in his list of important areas of life.

2. There are people who do not like music all together at all. Are they all somehow dead?

I've met people like that. I'm sure their life is that much less tolerable and enjoyable, though despite them not liking music, they still hear music many times throughout their life time. You can't escape from music.

good lord, I'll let someone else deal with this, I've exhausted my capacity to reason with you.

This seems to happen quite often. Can't argue on your own, someone else has to do it?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Just1Voice
Posts: 155
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9/13/2011 4:11:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 3:23:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/13/2011 3:16:55 PM, Just1Voice wrote:

Music and our creative impulses as well as our technical proficiency with using tools are all products of the same processes. That we would develop music was an inevitable outgrowth of the same evolutionary traits that have made us the dominant species on the planet.

but would we DIE without all of that? No. So it is not a necessity. The logic is actually quite simple really. I will concede if the OP clarifies that he is not going by the strict definition of a necessity. If he really is going by that definition, then no matter how intricate the argument, we will still arrive at the same conclusion, whether or not you write an essay, article or book on the argument, you can never be correct if arguing for that which is factually incorrect.

We wouldn't be here at all without music. However, you might be able to make the argument that our current level of technology has made the need for music obsolete.

JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
One would think that if music were necessary to live, that people born deaf would meet a timely demise from the lack of music.

If all of humanity were to go deaf tomorrow, we would probably adapt before we were driven to extinction and thus show that we no longer need music. But it would only be due to the technology we have gained as a result of the influence of music on our development.
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/13/2011 4:11:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 2:35:41 PM, Just1Voice wrote:
At 9/13/2011 2:28:11 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
That ignores the role of substitution goods, Voice.

Though certainly, music is valuable.

You might have a point if everyone were deaf, but no "substitution goods" exist for music that are not music.
In the absence of invention of music people will spend their money on something else, thus negating your point about people no longer able to make a living.

This was proven by John Cage (composer, performer, and possibly the greatest aesthetic philosopher since Aristotle).
Namedropping isn't an argument.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/13/2011 4:11:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Everything is music. The universe itself is actually a big note, and we exist in an overtone frequency that is 4,928 octaves below what the big note registers as.

True story, dawg.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/13/2011 4:13:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 4:11:49 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Everything is music. The universe itself is actually a big note, and we exist in an overtone frequency that is 4,928 octaves below what the big note registers as.

True story, dawg.

That was fiction. Tolkien's fiction (in the Silmarillion that's how the universe was made.)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/13/2011 4:15:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 4:11:49 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Everything is music. The universe itself is actually a big note, and we exist in an overtone frequency that is 4,928 octaves below what the big note registers as.

True story, dawg.

hippy...
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/13/2011 4:21:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 4:15:44 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/13/2011 4:11:49 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Everything is music. The universe itself is actually a big note, and we exist in an overtone frequency that is 4,928 octaves below what the big note registers as.

True story, dawg.

hippy...

Everything is a vibration, man. Light, sound, atoms. I believe in the Big Note because the Mushroom people told me, and everyone knows how wise they are.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Just1Voice
Posts: 155
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9/13/2011 4:29:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 4:11:39 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 9/13/2011 2:35:41 PM, Just1Voice wrote:
This was proven by John Cage (composer, performer, and possibly the greatest aesthetic philosopher since Aristotle).
Namedropping isn't an argument.

Cage was able to show that human beings can organize their perceptions in such a way as to perceive any sound or combination of it (or even silence) as music. In essence, he made music into an inalienable right.
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/13/2011 4:34:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 4:29:18 PM, Just1Voice wrote:
At 9/13/2011 4:11:39 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 9/13/2011 2:35:41 PM, Just1Voice wrote:
This was proven by John Cage (composer, performer, and possibly the greatest aesthetic philosopher since Aristotle).
Namedropping isn't an argument.

Cage was able to show that human beings can organize their perceptions in such a way as to perceive any sound or combination of it (or even silence) as music. In essence, he made music into an inalienable right.

That's not an argument, that's an assertion with no evidence. Again, namedropping does you no good.

Also, that doesn't even remotely follow. "Some humans perceive silence as music, therefore music is an inalienable right." Wtf? Some beetles perceive dung as food, neither dung nor food becomes an inalienable right because of that fact. That doesn't have the vaguest resemblance to any sort of logic. If I were the sort of person who did so, I'd link to that Ultimate Insult video.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/13/2011 4:51:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 4:02:15 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
One would think that if music were necessary to live, that people born deaf would meet a timely demise from the lack of music.

Those people are probably barely dangling by a string.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Just1Voice
Posts: 155
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9/13/2011 5:00:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 4:34:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 9/13/2011 4:29:18 PM, Just1Voice wrote:
Cage was able to show that human beings can organize their perceptions in such a way as to perceive any sound or combination of it (or even silence) as music. In essence, he made music into an inalienable right.

That's not an argument, that's an assertion with no evidence. Again, namedropping does you no good.

It was not an argument, it was a lesson, for your benefit, but if you don't see the value of the information I have imparted, it's your loss.


Also, that doesn't even remotely follow. "Some humans perceive silence as music, therefore music is an inalienable right." Wtf? Some beetles perceive dung as food, neither dung nor food becomes an inalienable right because of that fact. That doesn't have the vaguest resemblance to any sort of logic. If I were the sort of person who did so, I'd link to that Ultimate Insult video.

That is philosophy. Argue with them, not me. There are philosophical arguments that show how freedom is equally inalienable (put forth by a former prisoner of Nazi death camps, no less). In both cases it is a matter of perspective. What they say is true, from a certain viewpoint. If it's not your viewpoint, that doesn't make it untrue from theirs.
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/13/2011 5:05:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/13/2011 5:00:04 PM, Just1Voice wrote:
At 9/13/2011 4:34:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 9/13/2011 4:29:18 PM, Just1Voice wrote:
Cage was able to show that human beings can organize their perceptions in such a way as to perceive any sound or combination of it (or even silence) as music. In essence, he made music into an inalienable right.

That's not an argument, that's an assertion with no evidence. Again, namedropping does you no good.

It was not an argument, it was a lesson, for your benefit
A teacher who couldn't argue the case for their position in matters of dispute in their field would be fired.

That is philosophy. Argue with them, not me
Philosophy is a field, not an establishment

There are philosophical arguments that show how freedom is equally inalienable (put forth by a former prisoner of Nazi death camps, no less). In both cases it is a matter of perspective. What they say is true, from a certain viewpoint. If it's not your viewpoint, that doesn't make it untrue from theirs.
That's incompatible with what truth means.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.