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A Totalitarian USA?

DetectableNinja
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9/19/2011 8:18:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I was just thinking to myself about this, and I was wondering: do Americans truly have freedom of speech? Of course, we have the LEGAL right, but it seems to me that our society in America, and very much in most of Western society, is almost totalitarian in a sense: extreme view? Ppsh, you're stupid, shut up. Of course, that majority of people have the right to speech to, but...

Do you see where I'm going with this? What do you think?
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socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/19/2011 8:23:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
We don't have free speech and I don't think any politician has ever said we do(at least not with a straight face).
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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/19/2011 8:26:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Even compared to England, our press and speech is MUCH freer. In fact, our decentralized news system is so unique largely because of how market-based as opposed to government based (think BBC).

Americans who say this is totalitarian are whining. We are about as free as it gets when it comes to speech.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/19/2011 8:28:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 8:18:59 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I was just thinking to myself about this, and I was wondering: do Americans truly have freedom of speech? Of course, we have the LEGAL right, but it seems to me that our society in America, and very much in most of Western society, is almost totalitarian in a sense: extreme view? Ppsh, you're stupid, shut up. Of course, that majority of people have the right to speech to, but...

Do you see where I'm going with this? What do you think?

Can you imagine someone in America being put in jail solely because they say the holocaust didn't happen? No rallies, no mass circulation, just the act of speech.

Can you imagine America saying someone cannot enter the COUNTRY solely because of offensive language, not necessarily offensive views (Michael Savage and England)?
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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9/19/2011 8:28:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 8:26:11 PM, Wnope wrote:
Even compared to England, our press and speech is MUCH freer. In fact, our decentralized news system is so unique largely because of how market-based as opposed to government based (think BBC).

Americans who say this is totalitarian are whining. We are about as free as it gets when it comes to speech.

Oh, no...I'm not whining. I fact, this thread really should've been titled differently. I'm just pondering whether total free speech is really possible, seeing as how people naturally form groups, and may naturally use their freedom to shout down others.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/19/2011 8:30:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 8:28:28 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 9/19/2011 8:26:11 PM, Wnope wrote:
Even compared to England, our press and speech is MUCH freer. In fact, our decentralized news system is so unique largely because of how market-based as opposed to government based (think BBC).

Americans who say this is totalitarian are whining. We are about as free as it gets when it comes to speech.

Oh, no...I'm not whining. I fact, this thread really should've been titled differently. I'm just pondering whether total free speech is really possible, seeing as how people naturally form groups, and may naturally use their freedom to shout down others.

Well, are you measuring free speech by government intervention with the "marketplace of ideas" or by the ability of an individual to add his opinion to the "marketplace?" One includes societal barriers, the other is primarily legal.
DetectableNinja
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9/19/2011 8:31:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 8:30:11 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/19/2011 8:28:28 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 9/19/2011 8:26:11 PM, Wnope wrote:
Even compared to England, our press and speech is MUCH freer. In fact, our decentralized news system is so unique largely because of how market-based as opposed to government based (think BBC).

Americans who say this is totalitarian are whining. We are about as free as it gets when it comes to speech.

Oh, no...I'm not whining. I fact, this thread really should've been titled differently. I'm just pondering whether total free speech is really possible, seeing as how people naturally form groups, and may naturally use their freedom to shout down others.

Well, are you measuring free speech by government intervention with the "marketplace of ideas" or by the ability of an individual to add his opinion to the "marketplace?" One includes societal barriers, the other is primarily legal.

I'm measuring it in the latter: the first seems oxymoronic.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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9/19/2011 8:38:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
All I know is that when I play music on the street, officers of the law will sometimes hassle me.

That doesn't seem like free speech to me.

However, I am grateful for the fact that If I were so ignorant, I could deny the holocaust and shout to the world that it is totally okay and bitchin' to murder NONBELIEVERS. DIIIIIE.

But getting personal now, I do things that I do not believe negatively effect society in any way, and I do things that I believe should not be prosecuted against. I still deal with the law that tells me otherwise.

I don't believe in property rights. If you don't want me to say something on your land, by all means, shoot me in the face, or remove me. That is my opinion.

Now, that said, I tend to move when asked to, but I do not believe it is the government's job to move me. If you have "property rights", by all means, enforce your own property rights.

Then again, that totally isn't true, because the government does do these things, so it is obviously their job. Eeeeeeh.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/19/2011 10:41:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 8:28:04 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/19/2011 8:18:59 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I was just thinking to myself about this, and I was wondering: do Americans truly have freedom of speech? Of course, we have the LEGAL right, but it seems to me that our society in America, and very much in most of Western society, is almost totalitarian in a sense: extreme view? Ppsh, you're stupid, shut up. Of course, that majority of people have the right to speech to, but...

Do you see where I'm going with this? What do you think?

Can you imagine someone in America being put in jail solely because they say the holocaust didn't happen? No rallies, no mass circulation, just the act of speech.

This can't happen in the UK either.


Can you imagine America saying someone cannot enter the COUNTRY solely because of offensive language, not necessarily offensive views (Michael Savage and England)?

Yes actually, David Icke was very nearly denied such entry.

But saying that the USA probably does enjoy greater freedom of speech that the UK, that freedom has come under quite a brutal attack in the past ten or so years.
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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9/20/2011 9:51:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 8:18:59 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I was just thinking to myself about this, and I was wondering: do Americans truly have freedom of speech? Of course, we have the LEGAL right, but it seems to me that our society in America, and very much in most of Western society, is almost totalitarian in a sense: extreme view? Ppsh, you're stupid, shut up. Of course, that majority of people have the right to speech to, but...

Do you see where I'm going with this? What do you think?

If you view anything shy of absolute freedom of speech as totalitarian, then yes we are, and we should be. There are plenty of examples and thought experiments that show that absolute freedom of speech can lead to harm, and so cases where freedom of speech should be limited. As with other freedoms and liberties.
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Ore_Ele
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9/20/2011 11:06:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 10:55:35 AM, nonentity wrote:
"Freedom of speech" =/= freedom from consequences.

It does to a degree. Most people consider that if you are arrested for voice political disapproval to be a violation of freedom of speech, but isn't that based purly upon the consequences?
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nonentity
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9/20/2011 11:13:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 11:06:50 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/20/2011 10:55:35 AM, nonentity wrote:
"Freedom of speech" =/= freedom from consequences.

It does to a degree. Most people consider that if you are arrested for voice political disapproval to be a violation of freedom of speech, but isn't that based purly upon the consequences?

True. I was thinking more in terms of the OP... people are free to tell you to shut up.

Anyway, I don't agree with the glorification of freedom of speech, as if all forms of speech are equal.
Tiel
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9/20/2011 3:48:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Freedom of speech is a sham. The government still tells you what you can or cannot say. Anything that you say may be offensive to someone or some group. The limiting and restriction of speech is relative and therefor subject to bias. If this were truly a free country news anchors would be naked on network television saying "Good morning America, here is the weather. It's going to be one hell of a fvcking day. It's gonna rain like God's piss around 12:30pm... Followed by a sh!tty a$$ cold temperature drop around 7pm. Have a nice fvcking day." You won't see that though, not anytime soon. That'll be the day that I can go tell a police officer to "fvck off" because he pulled me over for not wearing a seat belt.

We don't live in a free speech country. We do what we're told or we get punished.
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vbaculum
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9/20/2011 4:34:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:48:12 PM, Tiel wrote:
Freedom of speech is a sham. The government still tells you what you can or cannot say. Anything that you say may be offensive to someone or some group. The limiting and restriction of speech is relative and therefor subject to bias. If this were truly a free country news anchors would be naked on network television saying "Good morning America, here is the weather. It's going to be one hell of a fvcking day. It's gonna rain like God's piss around 12:30pm... Followed by a sh!tty a$$ cold temperature drop around 7pm. Have a nice fvcking day." You won't see that though, not anytime soon. That'll be the day that I can go tell a police officer to "fvck off" because he pulled me over for not wearing a seat belt.

We don't live in a free speech country. We do what we're told or we get punished.

The fact that the FCC prohibits curse words on TV is indeed a violation of free speech which we shouldn't tolorate. It's not a trivial imposition either. In addition to forcing us to tolorate annoying beeps through out movies and shows, it legitimizes the idea that speech can and should be restricted for the benefit of others.
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innomen
Posts: 10,052
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9/21/2011 3:04:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think what the OP is getting at isn't so much the governmental ramifications of saying what you want, but the social conformity of which most people fall in line. We do, we always have and we always will; some level of conformity is what makes a society.
kelly224
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9/21/2011 8:49:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 8:18:59 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I was just thinking to myself about this, and I was wondering: do Americans truly have freedom of speech? Of course, we have the LEGAL right, but it seems to me that our society in America, and very much in most of Western society, is almost totalitarian in a sense: extreme view? Ppsh, you're stupid, shut up. Of course, that majority of people have the right to speech to, but...

Do you see where I'm going with this? What do you think?

I think that this is a good statement. Freedom of speech is only good within yuor sphere of friends. Look how people are escorted out of events (political fundraisers) for protesting. Look how journalists, and celebrities are silenced when they speak out againgst government (Dixie Chicks, Jane Fonda, etc).
kelly224
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9/21/2011 8:51:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 8:26:11 PM, Wnope wrote:
Even compared to England, our press and speech is MUCH freer. In fact, our decentralized news system is so unique largely because of how market-based as opposed to government based (think BBC).

Americans who say this is totalitarian are whining. We are about as free as it gets when it comes to speech.

This low balling comment demonstartes how scared average citizens have become from speaking their minds. All this manifests from having incompetent people in high positions who govern with their inferiority complexes.
kelly224
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9/21/2011 8:53:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 8:26:11 PM, Wnope wrote:
Even compared to England, our press and speech is MUCH freer. In fact, our decentralized news system is so unique largely because of how market-based as opposed to government based (think BBC).

Americans who say this is totalitarian are whining.

Voicing how you feel is whining? I think taking whatever crumbs someone throws at you is cronyism. Because you go home pondering how you are being kept down with a steel boot.

We are about as free as it gets when it comes to speech.
MarquisX
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9/21/2011 8:06:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
We do have free speech. You are within your right to say whatever it is you want. Its only if you're speech is threatening or slanderous do you get and some trouble
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CosmicAlfonzo
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9/22/2011 9:38:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 8:06:13 PM, MarquisX wrote:
We do have free speech. You are within your right to say whatever it is you want. Its only if you're speech is threatening or slanderous do you get and some trouble

Or if you don't have a permit in some cases.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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9/22/2011 9:47:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 8:06:13 PM, MarquisX wrote:
We do have free speech. You are within your right to say whatever it is you want. Its only if you're speech is threatening or slanderous do you get and some trouble

Or disruptive. If the purpose of speech is not to get an idea across, but merely to disrupt the proceedings of something else (like in a courtroom), it can get you into trouble.

Well, actually, it just gets you removed. It is when people resist being removed, that they get into actual trouble.
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