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Immigrants

Benzin
Posts: 2
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9/26/2011 6:25:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm seeking your opinions about immigrants. Are you for or against immigrants coming into your country? Is it some specific immigrants you like/don't like?

It's for a school project so we hope to get a lot of good answers from all of you.

Thank you!
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/26/2011 10:13:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The issue is how it is handled, in the UK we have been swamped by an unskilled labour taking away jobs for the natives... of course the natives did not want the jobs because the Government paid them not to work. We also got a disproportionate number of criminal immigrants.

So I'd support tougher immigration.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/26/2011 1:03:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I support open borders((I could be biased though since I like other cultures better than my own). Then again, I'm in Canada where multi-culturalism is embraced and honoured. My main argument in favour of it is that it would be hypocritical for settlers, particularly the white settlers to bar people from entering land that wasn't originally there's in the first place.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,285
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9/26/2011 1:17:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 10:04:33 AM, Danielle wrote:
I'm for immigrants coming into my country. It's not "my" country either. It belongs to nobody...

Well it sure clames YOU at taxtime!
Grape
Posts: 989
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9/26/2011 1:19:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I am in favor of open immigration. Libertarians who criticize open immigration because it is incompatible the welfare state are full of lulz. We should want what is incompatible with the welfare state.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/26/2011 1:31:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 1:19:59 PM, Grape wrote:
I am in favor of open immigration. Libertarians who criticize open immigration because it is incompatible the welfare state are full of lulz. We should want what is incompatible with the welfare state.

I am all for blowing the border fence using C4 and celebrating the destruction of the barriers we have put up against our Mexican neighbors. There is no border fence near Canada, neither is there one among the European Union states. Why a border fence next to Mexico?
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/26/2011 2:08:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 10:04:33 AM, Danielle wrote:
I'm for immigrants coming into my country. It's not "my" country either. It belongs to nobody...

yes it is. How can a country belong to no one? It belongs to its citizens. If you are a citizen of the United States, then this is your country.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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9/26/2011 2:14:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 2:08:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/26/2011 10:04:33 AM, Danielle wrote:
I'm for immigrants coming into my country. It's not "my" country either. It belongs to nobody...

yes it is. How can a country belong to no one? It belongs to its citizens. If you are a citizen of the United States, then this is your country.

Is it alright if the child of the president becomes president? Offspring of the CEO of some company becomes the CEO?

If not, then why is the offspring of a citizen becoming a citizen fine? Either the definition of citizen must be changed, or this entitlement by birth should be taken away.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/26/2011 2:19:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 1:31:42 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I am all for blowing the border fence using C4 and celebrating the destruction of the barriers we have put up against our Mexican neighbors. There is no border fence near Canada, neither is there one among the European Union states. Why a border fence next to Mexico?

Because brown people are bad. Duh. Notice that whenever anyone in the U.S. is referring to illegal aliens, they are referring to Mexicans, specifically. Nevermind the illegal Canadians, French, English or any other demographic that live here without papers.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/26/2011 2:20:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 2:08:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
yes it is. How can a country belong to no one? It belongs to its citizens. If you are a citizen of the United States, then this is your country.

Lol, keep telling yourself that. What rights of ownership do I have? I'll laugh if you say voting. The 'owner' of a car doesn't have to vote on anything; she does what she wants with it. I'm not a "partial owner" either. You can try to make that argument, but I'd probably defeat it.
President of DDO
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/26/2011 2:22:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 2:14:26 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 9/26/2011 2:08:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/26/2011 10:04:33 AM, Danielle wrote:
I'm for immigrants coming into my country. It's not "my" country either. It belongs to nobody...

yes it is. How can a country belong to no one? It belongs to its citizens. If you are a citizen of the United States, then this is your country.

Is it alright if the child of the president becomes president? Offspring of the CEO of some company becomes the CEO?

If not, then why is the offspring of a citizen becoming a citizen fine? Either the definition of citizen must be changed, or this entitlement by birth should be taken away.

This is an unintended strawman on your part,...well, hopefully unintended. What makes you think that being president and being CEO can be comparable to being a citizen? You named two positions of power, to which cannot be hereditary, and used that to prove that citizenship cannot too be hereditary. Citizenship cannot be a form of power or rule, citizenship is the mere acknowledgement that an individual was born in, or is under the jurisdiction of, a certain state. A child born in a country cannot individually choose which nation he wishes to be citizen of, it is the naturalization or immigration process that settles this deal.

Why you guys are protesting naturalized citizenship is beyond me, but I am pretty sure you're going to have a hard time proving this to be some sort of unjust or illogical process.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/26/2011 2:28:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 2:20:10 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 9/26/2011 2:08:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
yes it is. How can a country belong to no one? It belongs to its citizens. If you are a citizen of the United States, then this is your country.

Lol, keep telling yourself that. What rights of ownership do I have? I'll laugh if you say voting. The 'owner' of a car doesn't have to vote on anything; she does what she wants with it. I'm not a "partial owner" either. You can try to make that argument, but I'd probably defeat it.

Why do you keep diluting your argument with "lol" and "I'm going to laugh" just say your point, and lets have a coherent conversation. There's no need for all that.

I like to imagine a country as an individualized society. In the raw form, society is formed by the people who reside in it; therefore, being a part of society, gives you some right to that society. If a nation is an individualized society, and you are a part of it via citizenship, then it is, in a sense, you're society, and your country.

If you share a room with a sibling, you still call it "your room" even though someone else resides in it. If you dorm with someone in college, you still call it "your dorm". I'm really not seeing your point.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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9/26/2011 3:17:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 10:13:01 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
The issue is how it is handled, in the UK we have been swamped by an unskilled labour taking away jobs for the natives... of course the natives did not want the jobs because the Government paid them not to work. We also got a disproportionate number of criminal immigrants.

So I'd support tougher immigration.

Curious on the unskilled bit. Since the only group of recent immigrants who've had a significant impact on the job market over here are Eastern Europeans, I'm assuming that's who you mean here?

In my experience the Poles, Lithuanians, Croats etc getting the factory, transport and construction jobs are generally better educated and with a better work ethic than a lot of the "natives" applying for the same jobs.

Also what group is truly native to the British Isles? We're a nation of mongrels that were conquered by and integrated most of our European neighbours at some point after all. Or if you just mean native as in born here, that's fair enough.

At OP, I support a cap on immigration with priority given to the most qualified for the jobs we most need and to those who's lives would genuinely be at risk if deported to their own country.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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9/26/2011 3:30:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 2:22:41 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/26/2011 2:14:26 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 9/26/2011 2:08:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/26/2011 10:04:33 AM, Danielle wrote:
I'm for immigrants coming into my country. It's not "my" country either. It belongs to nobody...

yes it is. How can a country belong to no one? It belongs to its citizens. If you are a citizen of the United States, then this is your country.

Is it alright if the child of the president becomes president? Offspring of the CEO of some company becomes the CEO?

If not, then why is the offspring of a citizen becoming a citizen fine? Either the definition of citizen must be changed, or this entitlement by birth should be taken away.

This is an unintended strawman on your part,...well, hopefully unintended. What makes you think that being president and being CEO can be comparable to being a citizen? You named two positions of power, to which cannot be hereditary, and used that to prove that citizenship cannot too be hereditary. Citizenship cannot be a form of power or rule, citizenship is the mere acknowledgement that an individual was born in, or is under the jurisdiction of, a certain state. A child born in a country cannot individually choose which nation he wishes to be citizen of, it is the naturalization or immigration process that settles this deal.

Hence, due to this "acknowledgement" he can choose who comes into the country. I guess that is not power for you.

What's wrong with the child choosing to be citizen once he comes of legal age? Till then treat all children the same, whether they were born here or were air dropped.

Why you guys are protesting naturalized citizenship is beyond me, but I am pretty sure you're going to have a hard time proving this to be some sort of unjust or illogical process.

It's illogical and not hard to prove.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/26/2011 3:34:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 2:19:06 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 9/26/2011 1:31:42 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I am all for blowing the border fence using C4 and celebrating the destruction of the barriers we have put up against our Mexican neighbors. There is no border fence near Canada, neither is there one among the European Union states. Why a border fence next to Mexico?

Because brown people are bad. Duh. Notice that whenever anyone in the U.S. is referring to illegal aliens, they are referring to Mexicans, specifically. Nevermind the illegal Canadians, French, English or any other demographic that live here without papers.

Not true. When I tried to cross the US border last winter they denied me entry, thinking I was trying to emigrate illegally, and I'm Canadian.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/26/2011 3:46:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 2:14:26 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 9/26/2011 2:08:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/26/2011 10:04:33 AM, Danielle wrote:
I'm for immigrants coming into my country. It's not "my" country either. It belongs to nobody...

yes it is. How can a country belong to no one? It belongs to its citizens. If you are a citizen of the United States, then this is your country.

Is it alright if the child of the president becomes president? Offspring of the CEO of some company becomes the CEO?

If not, then why is the offspring of a citizen becoming a citizen fine? Either the definition of citizen must be changed, or this entitlement by birth should be taken away.

So, you'd do away with the fourteenth amendment?
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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9/26/2011 4:01:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 3:46:42 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/26/2011 2:14:26 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 9/26/2011 2:08:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/26/2011 10:04:33 AM, Danielle wrote:
I'm for immigrants coming into my country. It's not "my" country either. It belongs to nobody...

yes it is. How can a country belong to no one? It belongs to its citizens. If you are a citizen of the United States, then this is your country.

Is it alright if the child of the president becomes president? Offspring of the CEO of some company becomes the CEO?

If not, then why is the offspring of a citizen becoming a citizen fine? Either the definition of citizen must be changed, or this entitlement by birth should be taken away.

So, you'd do away with the fourteenth amendment?

I don't believe anything can be just "done away". The logic behind it is flawed, based on our application of the same logic to other parts of society.

I'm just arguing against that logic.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/26/2011 7:00:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 2:17:54 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 9/26/2011 10:13:01 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
So I'd support tougher immigration.

Debate?

Though I know I am going to get my a$s handed to me... sure. Shall I write up a resolution or shall you?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
seraine
Posts: 734
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9/26/2011 8:19:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 2:19:06 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 9/26/2011 1:31:42 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I am all for blowing the border fence using C4 and celebrating the destruction of the barriers we have put up against our Mexican neighbors. There is no border fence near Canada, neither is there one among the European Union states. Why a border fence next to Mexico?

Because brown people are bad. Duh. Notice that whenever anyone in the U.S. is referring to illegal aliens, they are referring to Mexicans, specifically. Nevermind the illegal Canadians, French, English or any other demographic that live here without papers.

Danielle is inb4 Joseph_Mengele
seraine
Posts: 734
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9/26/2011 8:21:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 6:25:16 AM, Benzin wrote:
I'm seeking your opinions about immigrants. Are you for or against immigrants coming into your country? Is it some specific immigrants you like/don't like?

It's for a school project so we hope to get a lot of good answers from all of you.

Thank you!

I basically want immigration with as few restrictions/clauses as possible, though there would probably have to be some changes to welfare first.
reddj2
Posts: 239
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9/27/2011 1:15:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
All i have to say is if he U.S. was to open its borders I think all country's in north and south america should also open its borders .Its only fair game.

Personally the number one thing for me is who's is coming in.
At the very least a background check.

BP"passport please"
IM"Ok"
BP*scans it*...."cant let you in"
IM"why???"
BP"your a rapist"
IM"fair"*drives away*
BP"... Americans"
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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9/27/2011 3:00:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
We are a nation and nations have borders, that is what defines us from other nations. The border does require definition.

I am in favor of immigration in general, and would completely revamp our current system to allow more people to enter, but there would be some sort of a vetting process when allowing them to enter, and deportation when compliance to both the process and the laws are not adhered to.

Visas would be far easier to get in the sense of availability, but the idea of sponsorship should return. Someone here should be vouching and responsible for the person that they are sponsoring in terms of legal compliance and economic support.

After having witnessed my partner's road to becoming a citizen, I'm not sure that process really needs much changing, i used to bitch about it taking so long, and costing so much, but there are reasons for it that i hadn't considered.

Lastly, although i would allow far more immigration, and i personally love to learn about different cultures, I would tag with the immigration reforms a bill that would make English the official language of the US. Again, this is along the same justification as borders in national identity and definition.
seraine
Posts: 734
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9/27/2011 6:59:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/27/2011 3:00:34 AM, innomen wrote:
We are a nation and nations have borders, that is what defines us from other nations. The border does require definition.

I am in favor of immigration in general, and would completely revamp our current system to allow more people to enter, but there would be some sort of a vetting process when allowing them to enter, and deportation when compliance to both the process and the laws are not adhered to.

Visas would be far easier to get in the sense of availability, but the idea of sponsorship should return. Someone here should be vouching and responsible for the person that they are sponsoring in terms of legal compliance and economic support.

After having witnessed my partner's road to becoming a citizen, I'm not sure that process really needs much changing, i used to bitch about it taking so long, and costing so much, but there are reasons for it that i hadn't considered.

Examples?

Lastly, although i would allow far more immigration, and i personally love to learn about different cultures, I would tag with the immigration reforms a bill that would make English the official language of the US. Again, this is along the same justification as borders in national identity and definition.
kelly224
Posts: 952
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9/27/2011 9:30:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 6:25:16 AM, Benzin wrote:
I'm seeking your opinions about immigrants. Are you for or against immigrants coming into your country? Is it some specific immigrants you like/don't like?

It's for a school project so we hope to get a lot of good answers from all of you.

Thank you!

We all are immigrants, why would there be an issue of someone else coming to seek a better life? I say exercise some restraint, but don't deny people teh opportunity.
kelly224
Posts: 952
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9/27/2011 9:32:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/26/2011 10:13:01 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
The issue is how it is handled, in the UK we have been swamped by an unskilled labour taking away jobs for the natives... of course the natives did not want the jobs because the Government paid them not to work. We also got a disproportionate number of criminal immigrants.

So I'd support tougher immigration.

well said. Lot's of arguments ar emade that immigrants are taking all teh jobs here as well, but just as yo usaid no one is jumping for these positions anyhow. Kinda debunks the whole argument politicians use, tehy gey tough around election season.
quarterexchange
Posts: 1,549
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9/27/2011 10:34:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have absolutely no problem with immigrants so long as they don't come here and rely on government run social programs to get by. Immigrants helped make this country an economic and industrial power house in the late 19th and early 20th century, sadly now we have millions flocking here not to work but to simply get a decent standard of living for doing nothing in return.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,285
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9/27/2011 11:15:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/27/2011 3:00:34 AM, innomen wrote:
We are a nation and nations have borders, that is what defines us from other nations. The border does require definition.

I am in favor of immigration in general, and would completely revamp our current system to allow more people to enter, but there would be some sort of a vetting process when allowing them to enter, and deportation when compliance to both the process and the laws are not adhered to.

Visas would be far easier to get in the sense of availability, but the idea of sponsorship should return. Someone here should be vouching and responsible for the person that they are sponsoring in terms of legal compliance and economic support.

After having witnessed my partner's road to becoming a citizen, I'm not sure that process really needs much changing, i used to bitch about it taking so long, and costing so much, but there are reasons for it that i hadn't considered.

Lastly, although i would allow far more immigration, and i personally love to learn about different cultures, I would tag with the immigration reforms a bill that would make English the official language of the US. Again, this is along the same justification as borders in national identity and definition.

I sometimes wonder if the concept of "Equality" in a country must be enforced with border regulation if it is to ever be implemented correctly. When you look at your neighbor, you have to be able to share at least some core equal values for you to truly feel they are your equal. I have not noticed general human behavior to operate otherwise.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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9/27/2011 12:16:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
A complete open immigrations will increase the overall wealth of society, ceteris paribus. However, that does not mean that the current citizens of the US will be better off, considering that more people means that the marginal utility of labor decreases. If wages are sticky, an open immigrations policy will create unemployment.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...