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Abortion

seraine
Posts: 734
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10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.
quarterexchange
Posts: 1,549
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10/15/2011 9:32:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.

I don't see aborting a fetus as wrong when it's done early. I would like it to be legal for women to abort the fetus for any reason whatsoever as long as it's still only a few weeks old, since after then is when the fetus develops a human heartbeat and other human organs.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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10/15/2011 11:42:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong,

The typical pro-life argument against it I believe is that the fetus is a person from the moment of conception as opposed to the time of viability or birth. Most abortion arguments revolve around the time personhood occurs in humans.

and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

Refer to my above response, it depends on the time of personhood. Not many believe that sperm are humans.
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PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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10/15/2011 11:52:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?:

The logic is that contraceptive pills prevent you from forming a new life. Can you destroy someone's car before it was built? Can you murder someone before they were even conceived?

That's the difference given by the Pro-Life camp.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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10/15/2011 11:56:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Sperm is wiggly, that's life if I've ever seen it.

Every time you masturbate, you are MURDERING.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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10/15/2011 7:51:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.

Please define what it is that you mean by "wrong"
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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10/15/2011 7:53:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/15/2011 7:51:09 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.

Please define what it is that you mean by "wrong"

DENIAL
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seraine
Posts: 734
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10/15/2011 7:54:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/15/2011 7:51:09 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.

Please define what it is that you mean by "wrong"

Does it violate anyone's rights/is it morally wrong/is it comparable to murder?

Take your pick.
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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10/17/2011 8:33:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/15/2011 7:54:28 PM, seraine wrote:
At 10/15/2011 7:51:09 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.

Please define what it is that you mean by "wrong"

Does it violate anyone's rights/is it morally wrong/is it comparable to murder?

Take your pick.

Thank you for the clarification.

I can now respond to your original post with a better understanding of what you are looking for.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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10/17/2011 2:46:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.

To answer your question, it isn't. The 7 day old cell compilation has no human features.

I personally feel that abortion at any stage should be considered just as morally permissible as condoms or birth control pills, but I'm not gonna elaborate on that because there will be whole pages of posts bashing me on it.
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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10/17/2011 3:50:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 2:46:02 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.

To answer your question, it isn't. The 7 day old cell compilation has no human features.

I personally feel that abortion at any stage should be considered just as morally permissible as condoms or birth control pills, but I'm not gonna elaborate on that because there will be whole pages of posts bashing me on it.

Black,... what are your thoughts on the following statement: "A child is not a child nor deserving of the rights of a child.... unless and until it lives too long and develops to an arbitrarily decided point; After which, it can not be denied any longer?"
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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10/19/2011 12:45:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 3:50:47 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/17/2011 2:46:02 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.

To answer your question, it isn't. The 7 day old cell compilation has no human features.

I personally feel that abortion at any stage should be considered just as morally permissible as condoms or birth control pills, but I'm not gonna elaborate on that because there will be whole pages of posts bashing me on it.

Black,... what are your thoughts on the following statement: "A child is not a child nor deserving of the rights of a child.... unless and until it lives too long and develops to an arbitrarily decided point; After which, it can not be denied any longer?"

Hello?
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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10/19/2011 12:58:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Sorry, I hadn't checked this section in a while.

The problem with that quote is that it assumes that the method pro-choicers use to determine when the fetus becomes a person is arbitrary. Its not. Arbitrary indicates that there's no real reason to it, and that we're deciding the fetus becomes a person at X stage in its development just because we feel like it. However, in reality, pro-choice believers have actual, logical reasons for not giving a fetus moral consideration until the later stages of development.

Obviously, those reasons are debatable. But they're not "arbitrary".
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/19/2011 12:59:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/15/2011 11:42:42 AM, socialpinko wrote:
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong,

The typical pro-life argument against it I believe is that the fetus is a person from the moment of conception as opposed to the time of viability or birth. Most abortion arguments revolve around the time personhood occurs in humans.

This is the reasoning behind it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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10/19/2011 1:05:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 2:46:02 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.

To answer your question, it isn't. The 7 day old cell compilation has no human features.

I personally feel that abortion at any stage should be considered just as morally permissible as condoms or birth control pills, but I'm not gonna elaborate on that because there will be whole pages of posts bashing me on it.

I actually agree with Blackvoid on this. I really don't see why anyone would be against it.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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10/19/2011 1:13:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/19/2011 1:05:15 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 10/17/2011 2:46:02 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.

To answer your question, it isn't. The 7 day old cell compilation has no human features.

I personally feel that abortion at any stage should be considered just as morally permissible as condoms or birth control pills, but I'm not gonna elaborate on that because there will be whole pages of posts bashing me on it.

I actually agree with Blackvoid on this. I really don't see why anyone would be against it.

You just opened the floodgates with that one, lol.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/19/2011 1:28:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/19/2011 1:13:03 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 10/19/2011 1:05:15 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 10/17/2011 2:46:02 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.

To answer your question, it isn't. The 7 day old cell compilation has no human features.

I personally feel that abortion at any stage should be considered just as morally permissible as condoms or birth control pills, but I'm not gonna elaborate on that because there will be whole pages of posts bashing me on it.

I actually agree with Blackvoid on this. I really don't see why anyone would be against it.

You just opened the floodgates with that one, lol.

The reasons were already listed. The debate is about when a person reaches personhood. When do they achieve "rights."
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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10/19/2011 4:28:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/19/2011 12:58:17 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
Sorry, I hadn't checked this section in a while.

The problem with that quote is that it assumes that the method pro-choicers use to determine when the fetus becomes a person is arbitrary. Its not. Arbitrary indicates that there's no real reason to it, and that we're deciding the fetus becomes a person at X stage in its development just because we feel like it. However, in reality, pro-choice believers have actual, logical reasons for not giving a fetus moral consideration until the later stages of development.

Obviously, those reasons are debatable. But they're not "arbitrary".

Ok, so let's remove the word "arbitrary."

"A child is not a child nor deserving of the rights of a child.... unless and until it lives too long and develops beyond a certain point; After which, it can not be denied any longer?"

What is your reaction to that?
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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10/19/2011 4:40:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.

Life is life.

Here's how contraceptive pills work: when women become pregnant, their bloodstream becomes saturated with estrogen and a cocktail of other hormones. These signal her reproductive system to stop ovulating, or releasing eggs. These pills don't kill anything, not even the eggs; instead, the ovulation delays until she stops taking the pills, at which point, the cycle continues.

In other words, nothing dies.

On the other hand, aborting a fetus is literally ending the life of an underdeveloped human being.

Thus, it is murder.

You can argue semantics and the relativism of morality all day long, but those are the facts.
seraine
Posts: 734
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10/19/2011 5:01:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/19/2011 4:40:16 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.

Life is life.

Here's how contraceptive pills work: when women become pregnant, their bloodstream becomes saturated with estrogen and a cocktail of other hormones. These signal her reproductive system to stop ovulating, or releasing eggs. These pills don't kill anything, not even the eggs; instead, the ovulation delays until she stops taking the pills, at which point, the cycle continues.

In other words, nothing dies.

On the other hand, aborting a fetus is literally ending the life of an underdeveloped human being.

Thus, it is murder.

You can argue semantics and the relativism of morality all day long, but those are the facts.

Taking contraceptives has the exact same effect as week old abortion.

Question: 5 years from now, a new abortion procedure is developed. Instead of killing the fetus, it stops the mother's body from providing nutrients to the fetus. Is it in any way different from a normal abortion?
sadolite
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10/19/2011 5:12:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.

What exactly makes smashing endangered species eggs wrong? I have killed nothing using the logic and reason of Roe vs Wade. It isn't viable outside the egg. Saying it is against the law because it is an endangered species implies that the fetus inside is alive and has potential to live. Why then would a human fetus be treated any differently?
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/19/2011 5:57:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/19/2011 5:01:01 PM, seraine wrote:
At 10/19/2011 4:40:16 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/15/2011 9:03:01 AM, seraine wrote:
What exactly makes aborting a week old fetus wrong, and how is aborting a week old fetus different from taking contraceptive pills before sex?

I have this pro-abortion idea, but I would like to see the response before I bring it out.

Life is life.

Here's how contraceptive pills work: when women become pregnant, their bloodstream becomes saturated with estrogen and a cocktail of other hormones. These signal her reproductive system to stop ovulating, or releasing eggs. These pills don't kill anything, not even the eggs; instead, the ovulation delays until she stops taking the pills, at which point, the cycle continues.

In other words, nothing dies.

On the other hand, aborting a fetus is literally ending the life of an underdeveloped human being.

Thus, it is murder.

You can argue semantics and the relativism of morality all day long, but those are the facts.

Taking contraceptives has the exact same effect as week old abortion.

You're thinking of the morning after pill, or plan-b pill. Contraceptives, such as condoms, birth control pills, IUDs, patches, etc do not have the same effect.

Also, I'd be skeptical if there was such a thing as a week old abortion, since you won't know that you're pregnant until 5+ weeks along.


Question: 5 years from now, a new abortion procedure is developed. Instead of killing the fetus, it stops the mother's body from providing nutrients to the fetus. Is it in any way different from a normal abortion?

Starving the fetus is killing it. If you left a 4 month old in their room until they starved to death, you killed it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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10/19/2011 8:47:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/19/2011 5:01:01 PM, seraine wrote:

Taking contraceptives has the exact same effect as week old abortion.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

First, as someone already mentioned, there is no such thing as a "week-old abortion" due to limitations in our ability to detect pregnancy.

Second, if you're talking about the abortion pill, then that is false. It actually has the reverse effect -- it blocks hormones--progesterone, specifically--which causes a breakdown in the uterus lining, effectively starving the embryo to death.

Question: 5 years from now, a new abortion procedure is developed. Instead of killing the fetus, it stops the mother's body from providing nutrients to the fetus. Is it in any way different from a normal abortion?

That is precisely what the abortion pill today does.

I don't understand your question. Are you asking whether starving something to death is somehow more acceptable than poisoning it?
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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10/20/2011 12:40:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/19/2011 4:28:35 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/19/2011 12:58:17 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
Sorry, I hadn't checked this section in a while.

The problem with that quote is that it assumes that the method pro-choicers use to determine when the fetus becomes a person is arbitrary. Its not. Arbitrary indicates that there's no real reason to it, and that we're deciding the fetus becomes a person at X stage in its development just because we feel like it. However, in reality, pro-choice believers have actual, logical reasons for not giving a fetus moral consideration until the later stages of development.

Obviously, those reasons are debatable. But they're not "arbitrary".

Ok, so let's remove the word "arbitrary."

"A child is not a child nor deserving of the rights of a child.... unless and until it lives too long and develops beyond a certain point; After which, it can not be denied any longer?"

What is your reaction to that?

Well first, I'd switch the first mention of "child" to "fetus" because saying "a child is not a child" seems paradoxical.

After that, I'd agree. I am going to point out though that the sentence is clearly presented in a biased manner, as it makes an emotional appeal in order to make pro-choice seem unethical. I could easily fabricate a similar biased quote to make pro-life seem nonsensical. But yeah, I agree with the quote, basically. Lets see what your follow-up question is.
seraine
Posts: 734
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10/20/2011 10:23:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/19/2011 8:47:23 PM, Ren wrote:
At 10/19/2011 5:01:01 PM, seraine wrote:

Taking contraceptives has the exact same effect as week old abortion.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

No baby is born.

First, as someone already mentioned, there is no such thing as a "week-old abortion" due to limitations in our ability to detect pregnancy.

1 month?

Second, if you're talking about the abortion pill, then that is false. It actually has the reverse effect -- it blocks hormones--progesterone, specifically--which causes a breakdown in the uterus lining, effectively starving the embryo to death.

Question: 5 years from now, a new abortion procedure is developed. Instead of killing the fetus, it stops the mother's body from providing nutrients to the fetus. Is it in any way different from a normal abortion?

That is precisely what the abortion pill today does.

I don't understand your question. Are you asking whether starving something to death is somehow more acceptable than poisoning it?

I'm asking what matters more-the means or the end? But I am kind of ignorant in these matters, and had not known the bold parts.

What is the difference from performing an abortion before the fetus has anything resembling sentience and taking contraceptives? In both cases, no baby is born.
Chuz-Life
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10/21/2011 1:58:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 10:23:13 AM, seraine wrote:

What is the difference from performing an abortion before the fetus has anything resembling sentience and taking contraceptives? In both cases, no baby is born.

Please note my avatar.

Also, not to make a purely semantic argument (these words have real meaning); A child is "born" when conception successfully takes place. Check out the synonyms for the word "born." They INCLUDE; "origin, begin, birth, initiate,..etc"

Please visit this discussion on it: http://www.politicalforum.com...

I think what a lot of people see as "birth" is actually called "parturition" and the two are simply not one and the same thing.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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10/22/2011 4:20:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 1:58:14 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/20/2011 10:23:13 AM, seraine wrote:

What is the difference from performing an abortion before the fetus has anything resembling sentience and taking contraceptives? In both cases, no baby is born.

Please note my avatar.

Also, not to make a purely semantic argument (these words have real meaning); A child is "born" when conception successfully takes place. Check out the synonyms for the word "born." They INCLUDE; "origin, begin, birth, initiate,..etc"

Please visit this discussion on it: http://www.politicalforum.com...

I think what a lot of people see as "birth" is actually called "parturition" and the two are simply not one and the same thing.

Bumping for comments.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
seraine
Posts: 734
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10/22/2011 9:19:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 1:58:14 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/20/2011 10:23:13 AM, seraine wrote:

What is the difference from performing an abortion before the fetus has anything resembling sentience and taking contraceptives? In both cases, no baby is born.

Please note my avatar.

Also, not to make a purely semantic argument (these words have real meaning); A child is "born" when conception successfully takes place. Check out the synonyms for the word "born." They INCLUDE; "origin, begin, birth, initiate,..etc"

Please visit this discussion on it: http://www.politicalforum.com...

I think what a lot of people see as "birth" is actually called "parturition" and the two are simply not one and the same thing.

If I had to choose when I was born, I suppose I would choose when I first began thinking and feeling.
Chuz-Life
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10/22/2011 9:39:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 9:19:20 PM, seraine wrote:
At 10/21/2011 1:58:14 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/20/2011 10:23:13 AM, seraine wrote:

What is the difference from performing an abortion before the fetus has anything resembling sentience and taking contraceptives? In both cases, no baby is born.

Please note my avatar.

Also, not to make a purely semantic argument (these words have real meaning); A child is "born" when conception successfully takes place. Check out the synonyms for the word "born." They INCLUDE; "origin, begin, birth, initiate,..etc"

Please visit this discussion on it: http://www.politicalforum.com...

I think what a lot of people see as "birth" is actually called "parturition" and the two are simply not one and the same thing.

If I had to choose when I was born, I suppose I would choose when I first began thinking and feeling.

That is you're choice to do so, of course.

But in the end it doesn't prove anything and forgive me for not finding it to be adequately compelling.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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10/23/2011 12:13:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/20/2011 10:23:13 AM, seraine wrote:
What is the difference from performing an abortion before the fetus has anything resembling sentience and taking contraceptives? In both cases, no baby is born.

I already answered this question.

When using contraceptives, you prevent any fertilization whatsoever, so no human development occurs. However, in the case of abortion, you are literally killing a developing human being.