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Selective abortion

PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/21/2011 5:15:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hypothetical scenario: China finally stops its policy of forced abortions and having a one-child per family policy. But a fad is sweeping across China, the US, and many European nations where prospective mothers are selectively aborting only female fetuses. Apparently, it's the latest rage.

A few feminist groups, however, see this as misogyny. The mother's counter that if a fetus isn't human, then the gender of that fetus is entirely irrelevant.

*** End hypothetical scenario ***

Defend the feminist group's stance while remaining cogent and coherent. Can it be done?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Kinesis
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10/21/2011 5:29:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I certainly think sex-selective abortion is bad for a number of reasons, but specifically misogyny? It depends upon the reasons for the trend of aborting female fetus'. If, as seems most likely, it's because they see male children as more useful because they are entitled to the larger share of money when married, or because they think men are intrinsically superior to women, then the abortions are a symptom of a misogynistic background. I don't see where being 'human' comes into it - although fetus' really are human by biological criterion anyway.

If it was just a fad without any sexist reason, which seem extremely unlikely, it obviously wouldn't be misogynistic - by definition.
Ore_Ele
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10/21/2011 5:35:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 5:15:04 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Hypothetical scenario: China finally stops its policy of forced abortions and having a one-child per family policy. But a fad is sweeping across China, the US, and many European nations where prospective mothers are selectively aborting only female fetuses. Apparently, it's the latest rage.

A few feminist groups, however, see this as misogyny. The mother's counter that if a fetus isn't human, then the gender of that fetus is entirely irrelevant.

*** End hypothetical scenario ***

Defend the feminist group's stance while remaining cogent and coherent. Can it be done?

Arguing purely from the feminists' point of view and not my own.

The fetus is a human, it is just not a person, and so does not have the full rights of personhood. But it is still human. As such, a limited set of human rights, similar to at will employment, to be called, at will pregnancy. Basically, (like at will employment) either party (the fetus or mother) are free to terminate the pregnancy so long as it was not for discriminating reasons (in this case, sex).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/21/2011 5:45:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 5:29:04 PM, Kinesis wrote:
I certainly think sex-selective abortion is bad for a number of reasons, but specifically misogyny? It depends upon the reasons for the trend of aborting female fetus'. If, as seems most likely, it's because they see male children as more useful because they are entitled to the larger share of money when married, or because they think men are intrinsically superior to women, then the abortions are a symptom of a misogynistic background. I don't see where being 'human' comes into it - although fetus' really are human by biological criterion anyway.:

But if you agree with abortion, then the gender of the non-human is immaterial, no?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/21/2011 5:47:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The fetus is a human, it is just not a person, and so does not have the full rights of personhood. But it is still human. As such, a limited set of human rights, similar to at will employment, to be called, at will pregnancy. Basically, (like at will employment) either party (the fetus or mother) are free to terminate the pregnancy so long as it was not for discriminating reasons (in this case, sex).:

Discriminating? Is it "her body, her choice" or not? Are you saying that women should be disallowed to abort a fetus for any reason she chooses?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Kinesis
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10/21/2011 6:01:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 5:45:42 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
But if you agree with abortion, then the gender of the non-human is immaterial, no?

I don't see how that's anything but a non-sequitur. If they've aborted the fetus for misogynistic reasons, that's misogyny. Views on the rights of the fetus don't matter at all.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/21/2011 6:10:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 6:01:42 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 10/21/2011 5:45:42 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
But if you agree with abortion, then the gender of the non-human is immaterial, no?

I don't see how that's anything but a non-sequitur. If they've aborted the fetus for misogynistic reasons, that's misogyny.:

The motive is irrelevant. The issue is: can a woman choose to abort a fetus for whatever reason she wants, or not, from an ethical point of view? Can she choose to abort because she slept with a black man and doesn't want an interracial marriage? Is it truly her body, her choice or not?

That's the question.

Views on the rights of the fetus don't matter at all.:

Exactly, so it doesn't matter whether the fetus is male, female, or a transsexual.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Kinesis
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10/21/2011 6:22:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 6:10:57 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
The motive is irrelevant. The issue is: can a woman choose to abort a fetus for whatever reason she wants, or not, from an ethical point of view?

No, that's a completely different issue. I'm not going to let you move the goalposts and then claim I haven't proved your initial example is unsound. The OP specifically refers to misogyny, not arguments for and against selective abortion in general.
Kinesis
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10/21/2011 6:25:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I would be against allowing people to abort their children for the reason that they were female - but it's because I think an imbalance in the ratio of sexes to one another would have undesirable consequences for society, not because of misogyny.
Ore_Ele
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10/21/2011 6:27:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 5:47:53 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
The fetus is a human, it is just not a person, and so does not have the full rights of personhood. But it is still human. As such, a limited set of human rights, similar to at will employment, to be called, at will pregnancy. Basically, (like at will employment) either party (the fetus or mother) are free to terminate the pregnancy so long as it was not for discriminating reasons (in this case, sex).:

Discriminating? Is it "her body, her choice" or not? Are you saying that women should be disallowed to abort a fetus for any reason she chooses?

Most Feminists don't hold an absolute view on that. They may claim that they do, but that is only so that they appear to be unshakable on abortion.

If a women were to get pregnant, take 12 weeks of paid maternity leave, then have an abortion before coming back to work, the majority of feminists would not support that, because it undermines their position. Likewise, they would not support abortions for sexist reasons.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/21/2011 6:43:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 6:22:56 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 10/21/2011 6:10:57 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
The motive is irrelevant. The issue is: can a woman choose to abort a fetus for whatever reason she wants, or not, from an ethical point of view?

No, that's a completely different issue. I'm not going to let you move the goalposts and then claim I haven't proved your initial example is unsound. The OP specifically refers to misogyny, not arguments for and against selective abortion in general.:

I only used misogny as an illustration of one possible reason people might object to it. You're focusing too much on that, but whatever.

Let me simplify: I'm asking you whether or not you personally think it is more ethical to stop selective abortion or to allow abortion solely on the mother's terms.

Give a reason for the justification.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/21/2011 6:44:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 6:25:14 PM, Kinesis wrote:
I would be against allowing people to abort their children for the reason that they were female - but it's because I think an imbalance in the ratio of sexes to one another would have undesirable consequences for society, not because of misogyny.:

But that's a practical/pragmatic reason, not really an ethical one. Whatever the case, you would disallow a mother the right to an abortion for the greater good? Is that an accurate assessment?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
nonentity
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10/21/2011 6:49:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 6:01:42 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 10/21/2011 5:45:42 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
But if you agree with abortion, then the gender of the non-human is immaterial, no?

I don't see how that's anything but a non-sequitur. If they've aborted the fetus for misogynistic reasons, that's misogyny. Views on the rights of the fetus don't matter at all.

But if a fetus is not a person, why would it be misogyny? Eating cows isn't misogynist because cows aren't people.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/21/2011 6:50:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If a women were to get pregnant, take 12 weeks of paid maternity leave, then have an abortion before coming back to work, the majority of feminists would not support that, because it undermines their position. Likewise, they would not support abortions for sexist reasons.:

Please don't get beyond the point of the question. In my hypothetical scenario, Feminism and/or misogyny are only possible motivating factors for disallowing what they might ordinarily feel is justifiable - that is, abortion. I'm not really wanting to know what feminists might think about it. It's just an example.

What I really want to know is: do you personally believe that it is unethical to abort solely on the basis of race or gender?

If so, give an explanation, if not, give an explanation.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/21/2011 6:50:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 6:45:23 PM, nonentity wrote:
I'm actually stumped by this :/:

That's the point of the exercise :)
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Ore_Ele
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10/21/2011 6:53:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 6:50:11 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
If a women were to get pregnant, take 12 weeks of paid maternity leave, then have an abortion before coming back to work, the majority of feminists would not support that, because it undermines their position. Likewise, they would not support abortions for sexist reasons.:

Please don't get beyond the point of the question. In my hypothetical scenario, Feminism and/or misogyny are only possible motivating factors for disallowing what they might ordinarily feel is justifiable - that is, abortion. I'm not really wanting to know what feminists might think about it. It's just an example.

What I really want to know is: do you personally believe that it is unethical to abort solely on the basis of race or gender?

If so, give an explanation, if not, give an explanation.

Do you want to know our "personal" beliefs, because that is not what you asked in the OP. You were asking for justification from a feminist point of view.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/21/2011 6:58:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Do you want to know our "personal" beliefs, because that is not what you asked in the OP. You were asking for justification from a feminist point of view.:

I should have better clarified, my apologies. I only used the hypothetical to set up the ethical question.

Yes, I would be more interested in knowing your personal opinion.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Kinesis
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10/21/2011 7:00:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 6:44:52 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
But that's a practical/pragmatic reason, not really an ethical one.

Yeah, it was a utilitarian argument.

Whatever the case, you would disallow a mother the right to an abortion for the greater good? Is that an accurate assessment?

The right to abort for that particular reason, yeah. I don't think people have inviolable rights or anything.
Ore_Ele
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10/21/2011 7:06:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 6:58:38 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Do you want to know our "personal" beliefs, because that is not what you asked in the OP. You were asking for justification from a feminist point of view.:

I should have better clarified, my apologies. I only used the hypothetical to set up the ethical question.

Yes, I would be more interested in knowing your personal opinion.

Since I'm against abortion for most cases, I would also be against it for the sole reason of gender selection. However, if someone made a spermacide that could only target one gender of sperm, I'd be all for that.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/21/2011 7:12:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Since I'm against abortion for most cases, I would also be against it for the sole reason of gender selection.:

Then I'm afraid this doesn't really apply to you, but thanks for your candor nonetheless.

If you can't yet tell, I'm turning the pro-abortion argument on its head by forcing them to sacrifice one moral for the other. I'm pitting pro-abortion against anti-misogyny.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
nonentity
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10/21/2011 7:19:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
My view is that it is not misogyny because a fetus is not a person.

I wouldn't have a "problem" with someone choosing to abort their fetus based on gender, but it is a fickle reason and I would lose respect for a person who did that.

I had thought you wanted us to come up with a feminist argument, and for that I was stumped.
Ore_Ele
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10/21/2011 7:25:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 7:12:12 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Since I'm against abortion for most cases, I would also be against it for the sole reason of gender selection.:

Then I'm afraid this doesn't really apply to you, but thanks for your candor nonetheless.

If you can't yet tell, I'm turning the pro-abortion argument on its head by forcing them to sacrifice one moral for the other. I'm pitting pro-abortion against anti-misogyny.

But the pro-abortion doesn't have to be a 100% absolutist, and it often isn't (as I described in the other example). If a person takes a 99.99% pro-abortion view, then the two can be reconciled.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
popculturepooka
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10/21/2011 7:45:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 7:19:35 PM, nonentity wrote:
My view is that it is not misogyny because a fetus is not a person.

I wouldn't have a "problem" with someone choosing to abort their fetus based on gender, but it is a fickle reason and I would lose respect for a person who did that.


Why would you lose respect for them if it's not misogyny? Why would it be a *fickle* reason? What makes it fickle if abortion in general is morally permissible due to the fetus not being a person? It's not ethically problematic that I choose between non-persons like flowers based on their color and smell - it's just a matter of personal preference.

I had thought you wanted us to come up with a feminist argument, and for that I was stumped.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
nonentity
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10/21/2011 7:51:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 7:45:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/21/2011 7:19:35 PM, nonentity wrote:
My view is that it is not misogyny because a fetus is not a person.

I wouldn't have a "problem" with someone choosing to abort their fetus based on gender, but it is a fickle reason and I would lose respect for a person who did that.


Why would you lose respect for them if it's not misogyny? Why would it be a *fickle* reason? What makes it fickle if abortion in general is morally permissible due to the fetus not being a person? It's not ethically problematic that I choose between non-persons like flowers based on their color and smell - it's just a matter of personal preference.


How would you feel about a person putting up their child for adoption because they can no longer take care of it? How would you feel about a person putting their child up for adoption because it's ugly? Would you have equal respect for the two situations? Does that necessarily mean you think one should be illegal?

I had thought you wanted us to come up with a feminist argument, and for that I was stumped.
popculturepooka
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10/21/2011 7:55:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 6:25:14 PM, Kinesis wrote:
I would be against allowing people to abort their children for the reason that they were female - but it's because I think an imbalance in the ratio of sexes to one another would have undesirable consequences for society, not because of misogyny.

Uh, abortion in general has undesirable consequences for society [1] so it would seem that you'd have to be against abortion in general if you are going to follow this line of reasoning.

[1] http://books.google.je...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
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10/21/2011 7:59:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 7:51:11 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 10/21/2011 7:45:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/21/2011 7:19:35 PM, nonentity wrote:
My view is that it is not misogyny because a fetus is not a person.

I wouldn't have a "problem" with someone choosing to abort their fetus based on gender, but it is a fickle reason and I would lose respect for a person who did that.


Why would you lose respect for them if it's not misogyny? Why would it be a *fickle* reason? What makes it fickle if abortion in general is morally permissible due to the fetus not being a person? It's not ethically problematic that I choose between non-persons like flowers based on their color and smell - it's just a matter of personal preference.


How would you feel about a person putting up their child for adoption because they can no longer take care of it? How would you feel about a person putting their child up for adoption because it's ugly? Would you have equal respect for the two situations? Does that necessarily mean you think one should be illegal?


According to your position, I believe, a fetus is not a person. I believe all persons merit equal respect so of course I'd be horrified at your second question because that surely is a morally questionable action. There is the crucial disanalogy. We aren't talking about persons right now.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
nonentity
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10/21/2011 8:23:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 7:59:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/21/2011 7:51:11 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 10/21/2011 7:45:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/21/2011 7:19:35 PM, nonentity wrote:
My view is that it is not misogyny because a fetus is not a person.

I wouldn't have a "problem" with someone choosing to abort their fetus based on gender, but it is a fickle reason and I would lose respect for a person who did that.


Why would you lose respect for them if it's not misogyny? Why would it be a *fickle* reason? What makes it fickle if abortion in general is morally permissible due to the fetus not being a person? It's not ethically problematic that I choose between non-persons like flowers based on their color and smell - it's just a matter of personal preference.


How would you feel about a person putting up their child for adoption because they can no longer take care of it? How would you feel about a person putting their child up for adoption because it's ugly? Would you have equal respect for the two situations? Does that necessarily mean you think one should be illegal?


According to your position, I believe, a fetus is not a person. I believe all persons merit equal respect so of course I'd be horrified at your second question because that surely is a morally questionable action. There is the crucial disanalogy. We aren't talking about persons right now.

The question is about the right to abortion, no? I can believe one has the right to abortion while simultaneously believing some reasons are better than others.
nonentity
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10/21/2011 8:51:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
To further clarify, I don't believe animals are people and yet I do not support the "unnecessary" killing of them. I don't support abortion, I support a woman's right to one. Just because I don't believe a fetus is a person doesn't mean I believe a fetus is nothing.