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ex-gays?

phantom
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11/14/2011 2:30:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If people are not born gay than there must be some, I'd even say lots, of people who called themselves homosexuals but then latter went straight.

So are there any cases where someone called himself homosexual then latter denounced it?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/14/2011 2:33:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 2:30:54 PM, phantom wrote:
If people are not born gay than there must be some, I'd even say lots, of people who called themselves homosexuals but then latter went straight.

So are there any cases where someone called himself homosexual then latter denounced it?

There are bisexuals that fully switched... however I reckon that they were either merely a little bi-curious or are lying about switching (to either gay or hetero) so as not to upset their other half.

There are 'cured' homosexuals, but they are just kidding themselves in a desperate attempt to fit in with a bull sh1t religious world view.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
inferno
Posts: 10,689
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11/14/2011 2:36:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 2:33:29 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/14/2011 2:30:54 PM, phantom wrote:
If people are not born gay than there must be some, I'd even say lots, of people who called themselves homosexuals but then latter went straight.

So are there any cases where someone called himself homosexual then latter denounced it?

There are bisexuals that fully switched... however I reckon that they were either merely a little bi-curious or are lying about switching (to either gay or hetero) so as not to upset their other half.

There are 'cured' homosexuals, but they are just kidding themselves in a desperate attempt to fit in with a bull sh1t religious world view.

They're confused................
lotus_flower
Posts: 454
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11/15/2011 11:34:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://exodusinternational.org...
it's bullsh1t, though. most of the participants off themselves, or regress.
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
- Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/15/2011 12:10:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So-called ex gays are either lying to themselves and/or others about their sexuality, or were bisexual all along. Regardless, I think these distinctions and labels are pretty obsolete. People may enjoy sex with anyone at a given particular time. For most people, sexuality is a lot more fluid than they would like to believe. For others, they have a very strong preference but that is in no way set in stone. A self professed heterosexual may enjoy a sexual encounter with someone of the same sex, and likewise a homosexual might find themselves turned on by someone of the opposite sex. Who cares? I think we need to realize that our physical animalistic instincts regarding sex often overtake the mental - or can in some cases - and we really need not read too much into it as one's sex is not important in terms of our sexual partners. Other factors like their health, your mental connection, the repercussions of said sexual act, etc. are a lot more pertinent then what genitalia they have. Only silly religious superstitions or cultural bigotry make it so that one's sex is important in terms of who one is sleeping with.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/16/2011 10:23:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/15/2011 12:10:58 PM, Danielle wrote:
So-called ex gays are either lying to themselves and/or others about their sexuality, or were bisexual all along. Regardless, I think these distinctions and labels are pretty obsolete. People may enjoy sex with anyone at a given particular time. For most people, sexuality is a lot more fluid than they would like to believe. For others, they have a very strong preference but that is in no way set in stone. A self professed heterosexual may enjoy a sexual encounter with someone of the same sex, and likewise a homosexual might find themselves turned on by someone of the opposite sex. Who cares? I think we need to realize that our physical animalistic instincts regarding sex often overtake the mental - or can in some cases - and we really need not read too much into it as one's sex is not important in terms of our sexual partners. Other factors like their health, your mental connection, the repercussions of said sexual act, etc. are a lot more pertinent then what genitalia they have. Only silly religious superstitions or cultural bigotry make it so that one's sex is important in terms of who one is sleeping with.

Oh noes!!!!!111 it is teh ebil homershexual agendah tryin to turn us all ghaye!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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11/16/2011 10:45:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Danielle has an opinion in a "gay" thread? No...

Bill Maher has a great piece in "Religulous" where he interviews a Christian ex-gay.

The interview starts at 1:30.
Rob
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/16/2011 1:34:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 2:30:54 PM, phantom wrote:
If people are not born gay than there must be some, I'd even say lots, of people who called themselves homosexuals but then latter went straight.

So are there any cases where someone called himself homosexual then latter denounced it?

I am similar to those I suppose, but not in the sense your probably talking about.

I am only physically attracted to the female body and features. I've been that way as a kid and as a teen. I am still that way.
I love a guy, and have gotten so that I am now attracted to him.
I am not attracted to any other male, and I have not stopped being attracted to females.
It's possibly pansexual or something even more strange. I do not care, and I don't care for labels. I like what looks pretty, and I love who and what comes naturally to me.

As far as I know there are not any actual ex-gays, most just learn to suppress sexuality, and some end up being ex ex gays.
Ex gay ministry doesn't help anyone, and doesn't do any good for anything.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/16/2011 1:41:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The same people above support every psychological help for a person who is gender X but feels like gender Y. Why do you not tell these people to accept who they are instead of letting them pretend like they are another gender, while they are not and can never be? But when it comes to homosexuals, you instantly deny any support for them to attempt to become heterosexuals if they feel that it is the best choice for them.

Don't be arrogant to pretend like it might not work for everyone. If people do not want to be gays, then that is none of your business. Whether it works for them or not is none of your business either. Not everyone does not want to be gay because of their environments. Maybe it is because they want a life that none of you can dream about getting, perhaps because you are too self-obsessed.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/16/2011 1:50:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/16/2011 1:41:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
The same people above support every psychological help for a person who is gender X but feels like gender Y. Why do you not tell these people to accept who they are instead of letting them pretend like they are another gender, while they are not and can never be?

Because such people denied any basic empathy often end up killing themselves.

But when it comes to homosexuals, you instantly deny any support for them to attempt to become heterosexuals if they feel that it is the best choice for them.

No we don't, we just point out that such self-delusion fails and will often cause them harm. If a gay person really wants to immerse themselves in religious hogwash to become straight then that is their choice.

Don't be arrogant to pretend like it might not work for everyone.

It does not work for anyone.

If people do not want to be gays, then that is none of your business. Whether it works for them or not is none of your business either. Not everyone does not want to be gay because of their environments. Maybe it is because they want a life that none of you can dream about getting, perhaps because you are too self-obsessed.

Haha.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/16/2011 1:57:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/16/2011 1:41:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
The same people above support every psychological help for a person who is gender X but feels like gender Y. Why do you not tell these people to accept who they are instead of letting them pretend like they are another gender, while they are not and can never be? But when it comes to homosexuals, you instantly deny any support for them to attempt to become heterosexuals if they feel that it is the best choice for them.

Don't be arrogant to pretend like it might not work for everyone. If people do not want to be gays, then that is none of your business. Whether it works for them or not is none of your business either. Not everyone does not want to be gay because of their environments. Maybe it is because they want a life that none of you can dream about getting, perhaps because you are too self-obsessed.

Do you understand the concept of sex change operations?
You can actually successfully change genders, you cannot successfully change who and what you are attracted to.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/16/2011 1:59:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/16/2011 1:50:15 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:41:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
The same people above support every psychological help for a person who is gender X but feels like gender Y. Why do you not tell these people to accept who they are instead of letting them pretend like they are another gender, while they are not and can never be?

Because such people denied any basic empathy often end up killing themselves.
I never said they should have no empathy. Nobody denies them that. We're talking about talking them into accepting that they really are the opposite gender, while they are not. That's a different thing. They can be helped by being taught to love who they actually are.

But when it comes to homosexuals, you instantly deny any support for them to attempt to become heterosexuals if they feel that it is the best choice for them.

No we don't, we just point out that such self-delusion fails and will often cause them harm. If a gay person really wants to immerse themselves in religious hogwash to become straight then that is their choice.
The treatments have yet to progress to a successful level. That's obvious with any start on a new tough task. If more progress can be made, it should. People should never be denied from changing to heterosexuality if that becomes possible.

Don't be arrogant to pretend like it might not work for everyone.

It does not work for anyone.
Why would it not work for everyone? Sure, one might not actually change his sexual orientation, but might feel much less stressed out by not being attracted to the opposite sex, yet wanting to be. One's life can be eased. Again, none of your business.

If people do not want to be gays, then that is none of your business. Whether it works for them or not is none of your business either. Not everyone does not want to be gay because of their environments. Maybe it is because they want a life that none of you can dream about getting, perhaps because you are too self-obsessed.

Haha.
That's not a response, if you can't reply with actual words then have a nice day.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/16/2011 2:01:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/16/2011 1:57:54 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:41:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
The same people above support every psychological help for a person who is gender X but feels like gender Y. Why do you not tell these people to accept who they are instead of letting them pretend like they are another gender, while they are not and can never be? But when it comes to homosexuals, you instantly deny any support for them to attempt to become heterosexuals if they feel that it is the best choice for them.

Don't be arrogant to pretend like it might not work for everyone. If people do not want to be gays, then that is none of your business. Whether it works for them or not is none of your business either. Not everyone does not want to be gay because of their environments. Maybe it is because they want a life that none of you can dream about getting, perhaps because you are too self-obsessed.

Do you understand the concept of sex change operations?
You can actually successfully change genders, you cannot successfully change who and what you are attracted to.
Transsexuals go through psychological talks for few years before they have sex-change surgeries. I see you were not aware of this fact. They are basically talked into liking the opposite gender so much that they should get used to acting like it. And you support that but not sexual orientation change, which might be 50% more successful in 10 years. Who knows.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/16/2011 2:46:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/16/2011 2:01:42 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:57:54 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:41:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
The same people above support every psychological help for a person who is gender X but feels like gender Y. Why do you not tell these people to accept who they are instead of letting them pretend like they are another gender, while they are not and can never be? But when it comes to homosexuals, you instantly deny any support for them to attempt to become heterosexuals if they feel that it is the best choice for them.

Don't be arrogant to pretend like it might not work for everyone. If people do not want to be gays, then that is none of your business. Whether it works for them or not is none of your business either. Not everyone does not want to be gay because of their environments. Maybe it is because they want a life that none of you can dream about getting, perhaps because you are too self-obsessed.

Do you understand the concept of sex change operations?
You can actually successfully change genders, you cannot successfully change who and what you are attracted to.
Transsexuals go through psychological talks for few years before they have sex-change surgeries. I see you were not aware of this fact. They are basically talked into liking the opposite gender so much that they should get used to acting like it. And you support that but not sexual orientation change, which might be 50% more successful in 10 years. Who knows.

I tried a long time to change my orientation. But just as i can not find red heads attractive, I cannot make myself find masculinity attractive, and I doubt you could either if you tried.

Transsexuals do go through extensive therapy, but it is not like what you are saying. They go into therapy to see how well the hormones are working, talk about how friends and family reacted when they found out, or are expected to react, to see if they really are transsexual and not just having a phase or something, and to see the psychological changes in the person, and to make sure they are very serious about the whole thing.

The point is you were quoted saying that they are not, nor ever can be the other sex, which is untrue, because sex is a physical thing, which can and has been altered.
I mean doesn't Iran give free sex change operations in an attempt to cure homosexuality?

Homosexuality, on the other hand, has far more to do with brain patterns, and preferences in the physical realm.
I like chicken, I like chocolate, I like candy, I like soda, I like energy drinks, I like cheesecake.
I cannot make myself stop liking them, and I have tried.

I do not like spinach, brussel sprouts, or tofu. I've tried. I just don't like them.

It's not something physical I can fix. It's natural preferences, and that's how orientation works as well.
I cannot make myself like red heads, nor can I stop liking dark hair, it's my own preferences.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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11/16/2011 5:00:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/14/2011 2:30:54 PM, phantom wrote:
If people are not born gay than there must be some, I'd even say lots, of people who called themselves homosexuals but then latter went straight.

So are there any cases where someone called himself homosexual then latter denounced it?:

There are evangelicals who claim it, but we all know they're just playing a game of pretend. Because they suppress their sexuality, you often see it manifest itself in bizarre ways... like Ted Haggard, who denounces homosexuals as f@ggots on Sunday but then smokes meth with drug-addled, queer hookers in his off-time.

The funny thing is that the guy wouldn't even need to come out of the closet cuz he's so flaming gay, the closet simply burned down around him.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/17/2011 2:16:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/16/2011 1:59:07 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:50:15 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:41:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
The same people above support every psychological help for a person who is gender X but feels like gender Y. Why do you not tell these people to accept who they are instead of letting them pretend like they are another gender, while they are not and can never be?

Because such people denied any basic empathy often end up killing themselves.
I never said they should have no empathy. Nobody denies them that. We're talking about talking them into accepting that they really are the opposite gender, while they are not. That's a different thing. They can be helped by being taught to love who they actually are.

And if that does not work then what?

But when it comes to homosexuals, you instantly deny any support for them to attempt to become heterosexuals if they feel that it is the best choice for them.

No we don't, we just point out that such self-delusion fails and will often cause them harm. If a gay person really wants to immerse themselves in religious hogwash to become straight then that is their choice.
The treatments have yet to progress to a successful level. That's obvious with any start on a new tough task. If more progress can be made, it should. People should never be denied from changing to heterosexuality if that becomes possible.

Are you fvcking kidding me?
Hey Mr Homosexual, we are going to cure you... to date no cure has worked... but that is no reason to stop treatment and consider another option! No sir!

Don't be arrogant to pretend like it might not work for everyone.

It does not work for anyone.
Why would it not work for everyone? Sure, one might not actually change his sexual orientation, but might feel much less stressed out by not being attracted to the opposite sex, yet wanting to be. One's life can be eased. Again, none of your business.

That is called repression, it leads to nervous breakdowns and suicide. Your position is also very hypocritical. I am perfectly happy to let them pursue self-hatred if that is what they chose, you regard that to be their only option. You presume that another persons sexuality is your business, I don't.


If people do not want to be gays, then that is none of your business. Whether it works for them or not is none of your business either. Not everyone does not want to be gay because of their environments. Maybe it is because they want a life that none of you can dream about getting, perhaps because you are too self-obsessed.

Haha.
That's not a response, if you can't reply with actual words then have a nice day.

It did not deserve a response, you are strawmanning me in order to justify the fact that you are happy to drive homosexuals to sucide.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/17/2011 2:34:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Personally, I don't consider someone's sexuality some huge, defining factor.

In fact, I'm pretty convinced that the lines distinguishing sexuality are, in practice, rather blurry.

That is to say, I'm sure there is a rather large proportion, if not even a majority, of people that have had sexual encounters that were both enjoyable and contradictory to their general sexual designation.

This is across the board, rather than only concerning gender. I'm sure there are very many people out there that are not child molesters, but have had single-or-few isolated experiences that involved relations with someone a significantly different age; people that do not practice incest, but have had questionable experiences with cousins, siblings, aunts, uncles, or even parents; people who do not practice polygamy, but had relationships with "open periods," or entire open relationships; people that are straight with "gay experiences" and people that are gay with "straight experiences," and so on.

People are just freaky, and do all kinds of freaky and nasty shtt all the time. Closed doors barely whisper, and depending on how dirty the joke is, sometimes take the secret to the grave.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/17/2011 3:25:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/16/2011 2:46:33 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/16/2011 2:01:42 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:57:54 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:41:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
The same people above support every psychological help for a person who is gender X but feels like gender Y. Why do you not tell these people to accept who they are instead of letting them pretend like they are another gender, while they are not and can never be? But when it comes to homosexuals, you instantly deny any support for them to attempt to become heterosexuals if they feel that it is the best choice for them.

Don't be arrogant to pretend like it might not work for everyone. If people do not want to be gays, then that is none of your business. Whether it works for them or not is none of your business either. Not everyone does not want to be gay because of their environments. Maybe it is because they want a life that none of you can dream about getting, perhaps because you are too self-obsessed.

Do you understand the concept of sex change operations?
You can actually successfully change genders, you cannot successfully change who and what you are attracted to.
Transsexuals go through psychological talks for few years before they have sex-change surgeries. I see you were not aware of this fact. They are basically talked into liking the opposite gender so much that they should get used to acting like it. And you support that but not sexual orientation change, which might be 50% more successful in 10 years. Who knows.

I tried a long time to change my orientation. But just as i can not find red heads attractive, I cannot make myself find masculinity attractive, and I doubt you could either if you tried.
Doesn't disprove anything.

Transsexuals do go through extensive therapy, but it is not like what you are saying. They go into therapy to see how well the hormones are working, talk about how friends and family reacted when they found out, or are expected to react, to see if they really are transsexual and not just having a phase or something, and to see the psychological changes in the person, and to make sure they are very serious about the whole thing.
Of course, and making them practice like the opposite sex to make them used to it. That's part of the process.

The point is you were quoted saying that they are not, nor ever can be the other sex, which is untrue, because sex is a physical thing, which can and has been altered.
I mean doesn't Iran give free sex change operations in an attempt to cure homosexuality?
They do look lightly at transsexuality I think, yes.


Homosexuality, on the other hand, has far more to do with brain patterns, and preferences in the physical realm.
I like chicken, I like chocolate, I like candy, I like soda, I like energy drinks, I like cheesecake.
I cannot make myself stop liking them, and I have tried.

I do not like spinach, brussel sprouts, or tofu. I've tried. I just don't like them.

It's not something physical I can fix. It's natural preferences, and that's how orientation works as well.
I cannot make myself like red heads, nor can I stop liking dark hair, it's my own preferences.
You're trying to say that no method will ever work. Science has progressed a lot, specifically neuroscience. You should not prohibit any attempt to treat homosexuals. They should feel free to attempt to change their orientation if they wish to do so.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/17/2011 4:13:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 2:16:47 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:59:07 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:50:15 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:41:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
The same people above support every psychological help for a person who is gender X but feels like gender Y. Why do you not tell these people to accept who they are instead of letting them pretend like they are another gender, while they are not and can never be?

Because such people denied any basic empathy often end up killing themselves.
I never said they should have no empathy. Nobody denies them that. We're talking about talking them into accepting that they really are the opposite gender, while they are not. That's a different thing. They can be helped by being taught to love who they actually are.

And if that does not work then what?
If a suicidal person cannot be helped overcome his suicidal thoughts in any kind of way, should we just tell him to go on and kill himself? I think not. Neither should we just encourage sex-change surgeries. If something does not work at first, it could work the second or the third time. Investments can be made to make progress with treating people who doubt their real gender.

But when it comes to homosexuals, you instantly deny any support for them to attempt to become heterosexuals if they feel that it is the best choice for them.

No we don't, we just point out that such self-delusion fails and will often cause them harm. If a gay person really wants to immerse themselves in religious hogwash to become straight then that is their choice.
The treatments have yet to progress to a successful level. That's obvious with any start on a new tough task. If more progress can be made, it should. People should never be denied from changing to heterosexuality if that becomes possible.

Are you fvcking kidding me?
Hey Mr Homosexual, we are going to cure you... to date no cure has worked... but that is no reason to stop treatment and consider another option! No sir!
That is his choice, not yours. Do you have the ability to understand that? If the treatment does not work, then you keep your nose out of his business. Many illness, many life conditions are treated with same methods, despite failures. That is not necessarily abuse. It is progression.

Don't be arrogant to pretend like it might not work for everyone.

It does not work for anyone.
Why would it not work for everyone? Sure, one might not actually change his sexual orientation, but might feel much less stressed out by not being attracted to the opposite sex, yet wanting to be. One's life can be eased. Again, none of your business.

That is called repression, it leads to nervous breakdowns and suicide. Your position is also very hypocritical. I am perfectly happy to let them pursue self-hatred if that is what they chose, you regard that to be their only option. You presume that another persons sexuality is your business, I don't.
Treatment of acne leads to suicide for some people. Treating a lot of mental illnesses leads to unintended consequences. That doesn't prevent us from supporting the same treatments, despite the fact that they often fail. Psychology is very complex, and a treatment that is not very good can be improved.

You're talking about options, but guess who pulled the restriction of rights here. I am not talking about anyone's right to love a person of the same sex in romantic ways. That's their private affairs. I am talking about letting them have the option to change their orientation if they wish to do so, without having to be criticized for that. It is none of your business.


If people do not want to be gays, then that is none of your business. Whether it works for them or not is none of your business either. Not everyone does not want to be gay because of their environments. Maybe it is because they want a life that none of you can dream about getting, perhaps because you are too self-obsessed.

Haha.
That's not a response, if you can't reply with actual words then have a nice day.

It did not deserve a response, you are strawmanning me in order to justify the fact that you are happy to drive homosexuals to sucide.
Point out the strawman, and explain where I've ever wanted anything bad for homosexuals.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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11/17/2011 8:36:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/16/2011 1:41:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
The same people above support every psychological help for a person who is gender X but feels like gender Y. Why do you not tell these people to accept who they are instead of letting them pretend like they are another gender, while they are not and can never be? But when it comes to homosexuals, you instantly deny any support for them to attempt to become heterosexuals if they feel that it is the best choice for them.:

Because people with gender dysphoria are homosexual. They are being who they are. Tell me, Mirza, if human beings can be born with physical elements of both sex (transsexuals), why would it be inconceivable that they are either attracted to members of the same sex or feel as though they are either men or women?

Is that one of Allah's cruel jokes?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/17/2011 11:20:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 4:13:15 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/17/2011 2:16:47 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:59:07 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:50:15 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:41:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
The same people above support every psychological help for a person who is gender X but feels like gender Y. Why do you not tell these people to accept who they are instead of letting them pretend like they are another gender, while they are not and can never be?

Because such people denied any basic empathy often end up killing themselves.
I never said they should have no empathy. Nobody denies them that. We're talking about talking them into accepting that they really are the opposite gender, while they are not. That's a different thing. They can be helped by being taught to love who they actually are.

And if that does not work then what?
If a suicidal person cannot be helped overcome his suicidal thoughts in any kind of way, should we just tell him to go on and kill himself?

According to you we should.

I think not. Neither should we just encourage sex-change surgeries. If something does not work at first, it could work the second or the third time. Investments can be made to make progress with treating people who doubt their real gender.

And if counselling never works then we....


But when it comes to homosexuals, you instantly deny any support for them to attempt to become heterosexuals if they feel that it is the best choice for them.

No we don't, we just point out that such self-delusion fails and will often cause them harm. If a gay person really wants to immerse themselves in religious hogwash to become straight then that is their choice.
The treatments have yet to progress to a successful level. That's obvious with any start on a new tough task. If more progress can be made, it should. People should never be denied from changing to heterosexuality if that becomes possible.

Are you fvcking kidding me?
Hey Mr Homosexual, we are going to cure you... to date no cure has worked... but that is no reason to stop treatment and consider another option! No sir!
That is his choice, not yours. Do you have the ability to understand that? If the treatment does not work, then you keep your nose out of his business. Many illness, many life conditions are treated with same methods, despite failures. That is not necessarily abuse. It is progression.

Again you have given him now choise beyond a 'treatment' that does not yet exist.


Don't be arrogant to pretend like it might not work for everyone.

It does not work for anyone.
Why would it not work for everyone? Sure, one might not actually change his sexual orientation, but might feel much less stressed out by not being attracted to the opposite sex, yet wanting to be. One's life can be eased. Again, none of your business.

That is called repression, it leads to nervous breakdowns and suicide. Your position is also very hypocritical. I am perfectly happy to let them pursue self-hatred if that is what they chose, you regard that to be their only option. You presume that another persons sexuality is your business, I don't.
Treatment of acne leads to suicide for some people. Treating a lot of mental illnesses leads to unintended consequences. That doesn't prevent us from supporting the same treatments, despite the fact that they often fail. Psychology is very complex, and a treatment that is not very good can be improved.


The 'treatment' for homosexuality NEVER works. NEVER.

You're talking about options, but guess who pulled the restriction of rights here.

You?

I am not talking about anyone's right to love a person of the same sex in romantic ways. That's their private affairs. I am talking about letting them have the option to change their orientation if they wish to do so, without having to be criticized for that. It is none of your business.


Again with the none of my business crap... okay why is it your business? Why is it your personal business that two men are having sex or that someone may want to change their? By what authority do you presume to enter their bedroom and directly interfere by what authority do you dictate their medical matters?


If people do not want to be gays, then that is none of your business. Whether it works for them or not is none of your business either. Not everyone does not want to be gay because of their environments. Maybe it is because they want a life that none of you can dream about getting, perhaps because you are too self-obsessed.

Haha.
That's not a response, if you can't reply with actual words then have a nice day.

It did not deserve a response, you are strawmanning me in order to justify the fact that you are happy to drive homosexuals to sucide.
Point out the strawman,

It is none of your business? It's an inversion of the argument.

and explain where I've ever wanted anything bad for homosexuals.

You would rather they lie or repress than lead happy lives.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/17/2011 11:37:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Mirza, if someone really wants to try to change who they are attracted to, I don't care. I care about Exodus and all the other ex gay ministries, because they serve to abuse young teenagers. Several medications that affect the mind are not available for children, teens, and young adults, even for severe illnesses like depression, because you are still developing, and are very fragile.

Those types of ministries are open to children, and even allow parents to force it on non consenting children.
it's trying to change someone else, and using abusive religious texts to do so.
It's spiritual, emotional, and mental abuse at the core, and I believe that's what everyone's issue is.

If Danielle decided that she didn't want to find women attractive anymore for some reason, she should be allowed to seek her own way of changing it, just as if you decide that you no longer want to be straight, should be able to seek your way to finding males attractive, and if I really wanted to start liking salads I should find my own way of making them taste good to me.

It's all personal choice, by ex-gay ministries rarely allow any choice, and often prey on young, vulnerable kids who even if they weren't gay or being put through that kind of system are still more likely to kill themselves than any other age group.

That's what I'm sure everyone's issue is.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/17/2011 1:51:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 8:36:00 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:41:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
The same people above support every psychological help for a person who is gender X but feels like gender Y. Why do you not tell these people to accept who they are instead of letting them pretend like they are another gender, while they are not and can never be? But when it comes to homosexuals, you instantly deny any support for them to attempt to become heterosexuals if they feel that it is the best choice for them.:

Because people with gender dysphoria are homosexual. They are being who they are. Tell me, Mirza, if human beings can be born with physical elements of both sex (transsexuals), why would it be inconceivable that they are either attracted to members of the same sex or feel as though they are either men or women?
Those are hermaphrodites, not transsexuals. You're talking about having physical properties of both sexes, but that has nothing to do with transsexuality. Transsexuals have the body like all other people of their gender, most of the time. The difference is the psychology. In reality, they are not the gender they feel like. That's a fact. What makes gender a real thing and not an abstract feature is the fact that there are two kinds of people which have sets of functions that are unique to each of them. No man can give birth. No woman has sperm and a penis. That's what separates the genders, by definition.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/17/2011 2:00:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 11:20:41 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/17/2011 4:13:15 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/17/2011 2:16:47 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:59:07 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:50:15 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:41:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
The same people above support every psychological help for a person who is gender X but feels like gender Y. Why do you not tell these people to accept who they are instead of letting them pretend like they are another gender, while they are not and can never be?

Because such people denied any basic empathy often end up killing themselves.
I never said they should have no empathy. Nobody denies them that. We're talking about talking them into accepting that they really are the opposite gender, while they are not. That's a different thing. They can be helped by being taught to love who they actually are.

And if that does not work then what?
If a suicidal person cannot be helped overcome his suicidal thoughts in any kind of way, should we just tell him to go on and kill himself?

According to you we should.
No, according to me we should let him preserve his body, not ruin it. You support transsexuals fooling themselves into thinking that a few surgeries will actually change their gender. That fails. Will never work.

I think not. Neither should we just encourage sex-change surgeries. If something does not work at first, it could work the second or the third time. Investments can be made to make progress with treating people who doubt their real gender.

And if counselling never works then we....
What is a surgery does not work? Ever heard of regretful transsexuals who killed themselves because they cannot return to their original state? What do you do about them?

For every problem you point out, I can point one right back at you.


But when it comes to homosexuals, you instantly deny any support for them to attempt to become heterosexuals if they feel that it is the best choice for them.

No we don't, we just point out that such self-delusion fails and will often cause them harm. If a gay person really wants to immerse themselves in religious hogwash to become straight then that is their choice.
The treatments have yet to progress to a successful level. That's obvious with any start on a new tough task. If more progress can be made, it should. People should never be denied from changing to heterosexuality if that becomes possible.

Are you fvcking kidding me?
Hey Mr Homosexual, we are going to cure you... to date no cure has worked... but that is no reason to stop treatment and consider another option! No sir!
That is his choice, not yours. Do you have the ability to understand that? If the treatment does not work, then you keep your nose out of his business. Many illness, many life conditions are treated with same methods, despite failures. That is not necessarily abuse. It is progression.

Again you have given him now choise beyond a 'treatment' that does not yet exist.
And that means we should not try to find a treatment? You're trying to say everyone should accept that they are gay? Who are you to say? Even if you consider it a good thing, someone else might not. They might not want a gay lifestyle.


Don't be arrogant to pretend like it might not work for everyone.

It does not work for anyone.
Why would it not work for everyone? Sure, one might not actually change his sexual orientation, but might feel much less stressed out by not being attracted to the opposite sex, yet wanting to be. One's life can be eased. Again, none of your business.

That is called repression, it leads to nervous breakdowns and suicide. Your position is also very hypocritical. I am perfectly happy to let them pursue self-hatred if that is what they chose, you regard that to be their only option. You presume that another persons sexuality is your business, I don't.
Treatment of acne leads to suicide for some people. Treating a lot of mental illnesses leads to unintended consequences. That doesn't prevent us from supporting the same treatments, despite the fact that they often fail. Psychology is very complex, and a treatment that is not very good can be improved.


The 'treatment' for homosexuality NEVER works. NEVER.
There are a handful of stories about people who feel that they've successfully changed their sexual orientation. You arrogantly deny that. Even if it does not work yet, it might do in the future.

Nobody should be denied the option to become heterosexuals if it is possible. Nobody.

You're talking about options, but guess who pulled the restriction of rights here.

You?
Where? Find a statement, go on.

I am not talking about anyone's right to love a person of the same sex in romantic ways. That's their private affairs. I am talking about letting them have the option to change their orientation if they wish to do so, without having to be criticized for that. It is none of your business.


Again with the none of my business crap... okay why is it your business? Why is it your personal business that two men are having sex or that someone may want to change their? By what authority do you presume to enter their bedroom and directly interfere by what authority do you dictate their medical matters?
That's irrelevant, I'm not talking about anyone's right to have homosexual intercourse. I never supported any authority entering anyone's bedroom to report their sexual activities. You're picking the wrong fruits here.


If people do not want to be gays, then that is none of your business. Whether it works for them or not is none of your business either. Not everyone does not want to be gay because of their environments. Maybe it is because they want a life that none of you can dream about getting, perhaps because you are too self-obsessed.

Haha.
That's not a response, if you can't reply with actual words then have a nice day.

It did not deserve a response, you are strawmanning me in order to justify the fact that you are happy to drive homosexuals to sucide.
Point out the strawman,

It is none of your business? It's an inversion of the argument.
That's not a strawman, it's a point. Go read what a strawman fallacy is.

and explain where I've ever wanted anything bad for homosexuals.

You would rather they lie or repress than lead happy lives.
No, I would not. If they want to live their lives by having sex with the same gender, then that does not concern me. On the other hand, it concerns you when a homosexual wants to change his sexual orientation, no matter how painful the process might be. So is the process of removing depression or anxiety. Ease comes through pain. You're not willing to let people risk their lives in order to achieve their goals. Try to figure out how risking is important to the world.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/17/2011 2:00:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 1:51:02 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/17/2011 8:36:00 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:41:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
The same people above support every psychological help for a person who is gender X but feels like gender Y. Why do you not tell these people to accept who they are instead of letting them pretend like they are another gender, while they are not and can never be? But when it comes to homosexuals, you instantly deny any support for them to attempt to become heterosexuals if they feel that it is the best choice for them.:

Because people with gender dysphoria are homosexual. They are being who they are. Tell me, Mirza, if human beings can be born with physical elements of both sex (transsexuals), why would it be inconceivable that they are either attracted to members of the same sex or feel as though they are either men or women?
Those are hermaphrodites, not transsexuals. You're talking about having physical properties of both sexes, but that has nothing to do with transsexuality. Transsexuals have the body like all other people of their gender, most of the time. The difference is the psychology. In reality, they are not the gender they feel like. That's a fact. What makes gender a real thing and not an abstract feature is the fact that there are two kinds of people which have sets of functions that are unique to each of them. No man can give birth. No woman has sperm and a penis. That's what separates the genders, by definition.

You understood what he meant -- hermaphrodites.

I think that a response to that question, involving hermaphrodites specifically, is warranted, given your current argument neither acknowledges nor accommodates them.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/17/2011 2:02:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 11:37:31 AM, lovelife wrote:
Mirza, if someone really wants to try to change who they are attracted to, I don't care. I care about Exodus and all the other ex gay ministries, because they serve to abuse young teenagers. Several medications that affect the mind are not available for children, teens, and young adults, even for severe illnesses like depression, because you are still developing, and are very fragile.
Who is talking about children? Children often have a very confused view of their identities, and that is why any psychological treatment for them with drugs is very risky to their development.

Those types of ministries are open to children, and even allow parents to force it on non consenting children.
it's trying to change someone else, and using abusive religious texts to do so.
It's spiritual, emotional, and mental abuse at the core, and I believe that's what everyone's issue is.
Adults.

If Danielle decided that she didn't want to find women attractive anymore for some reason, she should be allowed to seek her own way of changing it, just as if you decide that you no longer want to be straight, should be able to seek your way to finding males attractive, and if I really wanted to start liking salads I should find my own way of making them taste good to me.

It's all personal choice, by ex-gay ministries rarely allow any choice, and often prey on young, vulnerable kids who even if they weren't gay or being put through that kind of system are still more likely to kill themselves than any other age group.

That's what I'm sure everyone's issue is.
Really? So the adults who reported that they changed their sexual orientations are children who were forced to change by their local churches?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/17/2011 2:08:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 2:00:31 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 1:51:02 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/17/2011 8:36:00 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 11/16/2011 1:41:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
The same people above support every psychological help for a person who is gender X but feels like gender Y. Why do you not tell these people to accept who they are instead of letting them pretend like they are another gender, while they are not and can never be? But when it comes to homosexuals, you instantly deny any support for them to attempt to become heterosexuals if they feel that it is the best choice for them.:

Because people with gender dysphoria are homosexual. They are being who they are. Tell me, Mirza, if human beings can be born with physical elements of both sex (transsexuals), why would it be inconceivable that they are either attracted to members of the same sex or feel as though they are either men or women?
Those are hermaphrodites, not transsexuals. You're talking about having physical properties of both sexes, but that has nothing to do with transsexuality. Transsexuals have the body like all other people of their gender, most of the time. The difference is the psychology. In reality, they are not the gender they feel like. That's a fact. What makes gender a real thing and not an abstract feature is the fact that there are two kinds of people which have sets of functions that are unique to each of them. No man can give birth. No woman has sperm and a penis. That's what separates the genders, by definition.

You understood what he meant -- hermaphrodites.
I clarified what he was talking about. He's the one mistaking the terms. Hermaphrodite =/= transsexual.

I think that a response to that question, involving hermaphrodites specifically, is warranted, given your current argument neither acknowledges nor accommodates them.
What is your point? When it comes to hermaphrodites, I never said anything about them not being recommended to undergo surgeries. That's because their bodies are adjustable to becoming nearly fully operational like either one of the genders. That's not the case with transsexuals.
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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11/17/2011 2:36:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Let's say there was a society that was predominantly homosexual and persecuted heterosexual individuals [and also let us assume they have cloning devices which take the genes from any two individuals irregardless of sex, combine them, and add minor mutations to the clones]. One could expect some hetero's to say they are homo's and if the society were to progress and eventually become less biased against heterosexuals [but the bias remains but on a level that the hetero's suffer through less than they would prior] we could expect to see some people being called ex-heterosexuals because they admitted to being straight [believing that since society had become more accepting their friends and family would understand] but after receiving tons of flack by gays/lesbians [making up the hetero's friends and family] who believe that being heterosexual is not something that you are born with but a choice so they say that they have become homosexual in order to stop dealing with the flack [or they actually begin to believe that mess but its only delusion, for he shall always look at busty women and shall never dress stylishly], and hence ex-heterosexual.

[Sorry if this post was sort of confusing but you should get the gist of it]
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/17/2011 2:42:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 2:08:04 PM, Mirza wrote:
What is your point? When it comes to hermaphrodites, I never said anything about them not being recommended to undergo surgeries. That's because their bodies are adjustable to becoming nearly fully operational like either one of the genders. That's not the case with transsexuals.

So, to be clear, you're saying that some people require surgical enhancement or correction to be acceptable in the eyes of God?