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Large Scale Society Cannot Function

Mikeee
Posts: 234
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11/20/2011 9:04:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
As evident through thousands of years of history of multiple civilizations, it is shown that large scale society cannot function and eventually falls apart. The only societies that have survived are small scale society...
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/21/2011 3:49:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:04:28 PM, Mikeee wrote:
As evident through thousands of years of history of multiple civilizations, it is shown that large scale society cannot function and eventually falls apart. The only societies that have survived are small scale society...

A large territory by scale to other territories, centrally managed or controlled is less likely to operate efficiently, if not more likely to fail, versus a locally governed small community.

Fix'd.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/21/2011 5:31:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I am looking at a large scale functioning society right now...
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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11/21/2011 10:27:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:04:28 PM, Mikeee wrote:
As evident through thousands of years of history of multiple civilizations, it is shown that large scale society cannot function and eventually falls apart. The only societies that have survived are small scale society...

True, I blame agriculture.
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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11/21/2011 10:59:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Exerpt from Plato's Republic:

"
A State, I said, arises, as I conceive, out of the needs of mankind; no one is self-sufficing, but all of us have many wants. Can any other origin of a State be imagined?

There can I be no other.
Then, as we have many wants, and many persons are needed to supply them, one takes a helper for one purpose and another for another; and when these partners and helpers are gathered together in one habitation the body of inhabitants is termed a State.

True, he said.
And they exchange with one another, and one gives, and another receives, under the idea that the exchange will be for their good.

Very true.
Then, I said, let us begin and create in idea a State; and yet the true creator is necessity, who is the mother of our invention.

Of course, he replied.
Now the first and greatest of necessities is food, which is the condition of life and existence.

Certainly.
The second is a dwelling, and the third clothing and the like.
True.
And now let us see how our city will be able to supply this great demand: We may suppose that one man is a husbandman, another a builder, some one else a weaver --shall we add to them a shoemaker, or perhaps some other purveyor to our bodily wants?

Quite right.
The barest notion of a State must include four or five men...

[they then go on to discuss about a dozen or so more intrinsic professions that should make up a very small but otherwise complete state - carpenters, smiths, artisans, neathards, shephereds/herdsmen, curriers, weavers, traders, merchants, sailors, salesmen/retailers, and general laborers.]

...Let us then consider, first of all, what will be their way of life, now that we have thus established them. Will they not produce corn, and wine, and clothes, and shoes, and build houses for themselves? And when they are housed, they will work, in summer, commonly, stripped and barefoot, but in winter substantially clothed and shod. They will feed on barley-meal and flour of wheat, baking and kneading them, making noble cakes and loaves; these they will serve up on a mat of reeds or on clean leaves, themselves reclining the while upon beds strewn with yew or myrtle. And they and their children will feast, drinking of the wine which they have made, wearing garlands on their heads, and hymning the praises of the gods, in happy converse with one another. And they will take care that their families do not exceed their means; having an eye to poverty or war.

But, said Glaucon, interposing, you have not given them a relish to their meal.

True, I replied, I had forgotten; of course they must have a relish-salt, and olives, and cheese, and they will boil roots and herbs such as country people prepare; for a dessert we shall give them figs, and peas, and beans; and they will roast myrtle-berries and acorns at the fire, drinking in moderation. And with such a diet they may be expected to live in peace and health to a good old age, and bequeath a similar life to their children after them.

Yes, Socrates, he said, and if you were providing for a city of pigs, how else would you feed the beasts?

But what would you have, Glaucon? I replied.
Why, he said, you should give them the ordinary conveniences of life. People who are to be comfortable are accustomed to lie on sofas, and dine off tables, and they should have sauces and sweets in the modern style.

Yes, I said, now I understand: the question which you would have me consider is, not only how a State, but how a luxurious State is created; and possibly there is no harm in this, for in such a State we shall be more likely to see how justice and injustice originate. In my opinion the true and healthy constitution of the State is the one which I have described. But if you wish also to see a State at fever heat, I have no objection. For I suspect that many will not be satisfied with the simpler way of life. They will be for adding sofas, and tables, and other furniture; also dainties, and perfumes, and incense, and courtesans, and cakes, all these not of one sort only, but in every variety; we must go beyond the necessaries of which I was at first speaking, such as houses, and clothes, and shoes: the arts of the painter and the embroiderer will have to be set in motion, and gold and ivory and all sorts of materials must be procured.

True, he said.
Then we must enlarge our borders; for the original healthy State is no longer sufficient. Now will the city have to fill and swell with a multitude of callings which are not required by any natural want; such as the whole tribe of hunters and actors, of whom one large class have to do with forms and colours; another will be the votaries of music --poets and their attendant train of rhapsodists, players, dancers, contractors; also makers of divers kinds of articles, including women's dresses. And we shall want more servants. Will not tutors be also in request, and nurses wet and dry, tirewomen and barbers, as well as confectioners and cooks; and swineherds, too, who were not needed and therefore had no place in the former edition of our State, but are needed now? They must not be forgotten: and there will be animals of many other kinds, if people eat them.

Certainly.
And living in this way we shall have much greater need of physicians than before?

Much greater.
And the country which was enough to support the original inhabitants will be too small now, and not enough?

Quite true.
Then a slice of our neighbours' land will be wanted by us for pasture and tillage, and they will want a slice of ours, if, like ourselves, they exceed the limit of necessity, and give themselves up to the unlimited accumulation of wealth?

That, Socrates, will be inevitable.
And so we shall go to war, Glaucon. Shall we not?
Most certainly, he replied.
Then without determining as yet whether war does good or harm, thus much we may affirm, that now we have discovered war to be derived from causes which are also the causes of almost all the evils in States, private as well as public.

Undoubtedly.
And our State must once more enlarge; and this time the will be nothing short of a whole army, which will have to go out and fight with the invaders for all that we have, as well as for the things and persons whom we were describing above.
"

Plato has given us his definition of a state, and declared that it is our personal desire for "more" that is the foundation of war. "Large-scale society," from Plato's perspective, is only a function of how much we want, as large wants will necessitate a large society to provide them.
Rob
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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11/21/2011 12:19:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:04:28 PM, Mikeee wrote:
As evident through thousands of years of history of multiple civilizations, it is shown that large scale society cannot function and eventually falls apart. The only societies that have survived are small scale society...

No. Societies never fall apart, they evolve.

Nations, governments and regimes do and it's rarely, if ever, to do with land area or the population number.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/21/2011 12:22:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/21/2011 12:19:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:04:28 PM, Mikeee wrote:
As evident through thousands of years of history of multiple civilizations, it is shown that large scale society cannot function and eventually falls apart. The only societies that have survived are small scale society...

No. Societies never fall apart, they evolve.

Nations, governments and regimes do and it's rarely, if ever, to do with land area or the population number.

^^^ ahhh, yes... and then, this begs the question as to whether a society is as substantial, even relevant, as we've come to accept them as a concept.

Because, of coure, it's only a part of a general school of thought that exists alongside many others that have the potential to be both less and more viable..
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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11/21/2011 12:58:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/21/2011 12:22:05 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/21/2011 12:19:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:04:28 PM, Mikeee wrote:
As evident through thousands of years of history of multiple civilizations, it is shown that large scale society cannot function and eventually falls apart. The only societies that have survived are small scale society...

No. Societies never fall apart, they evolve.

Nations, governments and regimes do and it's rarely, if ever, to do with land area or the population number.

^^^ ahhh, yes... and then, this begs the question as to whether a society is as substantial, even relevant, as we've come to accept them as a concept.

Because, of coure, it's only a part of a general school of thought that exists alongside many others that have the potential to be both less and more viable..
Society is defined explicitly in sociology as those people who share common social norms and have a common culture. It is undeniably relevant and the basis of all macro-sociology, the only possible disputes are where one society begins and another starts and the scale of a society: cosmopolitian society, nation, locality. You can't destroy a society without exterminating it's members. You're a member of societies whether you like it or not.

The OP was clearly referring to states and other political entities, anyway.
'sup DDO -- july 2013