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Innomen, I am calling you out.

nonentity
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11/23/2011 1:25:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
A while ago you made a thread that some stereotypes are justified. I came across an article a couple weeks ago where the author showed that even an awareness of stereotypes negatively impacted how people interacted with others, even if they themselves did not believe those stereotypes.

Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the author or the title of the article.

However, I have come across this video. I challenge you to watch it and defend your position that some stereotypes are justified. And please, specify which ones.
lovelife
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11/26/2011 7:57:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/24/2011 12:08:56 PM, nonentity wrote:
Bump...

Not gunna happen...you'd prob get better results if you pmd him rather than make a "hate" thread.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Ren
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11/27/2011 11:47:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/26/2011 7:57:19 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/24/2011 12:08:56 PM, nonentity wrote:
Bump...

Not gunna happen...you'd prob get better results if you pmd him rather than make a "hate" thread.

I wouldn't call this a "hate" thread at all.

I am all for people making threads requesting that others substantiate their claims and positions, if they didn't have the opportunity in the past.

Things like this indicate that the OP respects Innomen as a thinker, but disagrees on this point, and would like to understand.

I agree with the OP's position, although I consider stereotypes in our current social climate inevitable; either way, I'm curious for his answer as well.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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11/27/2011 11:58:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/23/2011 1:25:32 PM, nonentity wrote:
A while ago you made a thread that some stereotypes are justified.:

Maybe not justified, but noticed. If a pattern emerges that British accents differ from American accents, is it somehow silly to assume someone is either British or American on account of their different accents? Is it xenophobic to assume it? Is it intentionally meanspirited to point out the difference and make assumptions based on such a pattern? I say, not necessarily.

The point is that while I agree that stereotypes can have negative consequences, not all stereotypes are necessarily nefarious or intended to be sexist, racist, or bigoted in any manner. And I think I recall that being the same sentiment of Innomen, but don't quote me on it.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
nonentity
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11/27/2011 2:31:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/26/2011 7:57:19 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/24/2011 12:08:56 PM, nonentity wrote:
Bump...

Not gunna happen...you'd prob get better results if you pmd him rather than make a "hate" thread.

Please explain how this is a "hate" thread. Thank you.
nonentity
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11/27/2011 3:02:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At Innomen's request, I am summarizing the video. I hadn't realized how long it actually was. I would encourage anyone who has any interest and time to watch the video though, because my summary will not nearly reflect the full sentiment of the video :)

She begins by talking about how she was an early reader, and all of the books she read were by Americans and Europeans. And because she was only exposed to those stories, the stories she herself wrote only reflected American and European experiences, despite the fact that she hadn't experienced those things herself (eg. snow) and all of her characters were white, blonde-haired and blue-eyed. (She's Nigerian and had only seen Nigeria.) It wasn't until she was exposed to African authors that she realized there were other ways to write stories.

She then talks about how her mother told her another family (her house boy's family) was poor. And when she actually went to their house she was surprised to see that they were also hard-working because all she had been told was that they were poor, and her "single story" of them had affected what she thought of them.

When she went to the United States for school, her roommate asked her a bunch of stereotypical questions. For example, if she could listen to some of her "tribal" music. Her roommate was surprised when she showed her her Mariah Carey CD, because she had a "singe story" of how Africans were. Her roommate had already pitied her before even meeting her, not knowing that her family was well off, simply because of the Western idea of what Africans are like. Quoted, "In this single story, there was no possibility of Africans being similar to her in any way, no possibility of feelings more complex than pity, no possibility of a connection as human equals".

There are a lot of other things she says, but I'll give one other example. She wrote a story about a Nigerian guy who abused his wife, and a teacher (I believe) had told her that he loved it because it represented a true Nigerian guy, or something to that effect. So she asked him if "American Psycho" is representative of all Americans. And she points out that because Americans have political and economic power, we are able to see multiple stories and therefore they are less likely to be stereotyped. But when all you see is a single story, you don't have an opportunity to contradict the stereotype.

She also points out that stories have the power to break dignity...

That's a really quick run down of the video.
nonentity
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12/1/2011 4:59:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Okay I will summarize it even further.

Her basic point is that even if a stereotype may hold some truth to it, it is an incomplete picture and more harmful than it is worth.

NOW, can someone reply to this? Holy cow.
innomen
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12/2/2011 3:01:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I apologize NE, it was somewhat disrespectful of me to not respond, and this was certainly not a hate-thread.

While i understand there is potential for harm in stereotypes, and try to understand that this is something that i am intimately familiar with, it is both inevitable and useful. As a gay man i am almost always pigeon holed and stereotyped, and i really do not fall into the 'type'; is this harmful? I'm also white, and come from an affluent community (although not an affluent family), which also has a great deal of stereotypes connected to it, is that harmful? I have voted republican and have held some conservative views, which has a boatload of stereotypes connected to it, is that harmful? - Maybe yes to all of those harms, but life is not free of harm.

It is normal for us to stereotype, and if you think you are exempt from this tendency i would challenge you on it. We all do it all the time. For the most part it's harmless, and in some cases it's quite beneficial. If someone gives to the United Negro College fund, there's a good chance that's due to stereotypes. If someone is more cautious in an area of the city where there are visible signs of rampant crime, is that bad? It is a stereotype.

I took a sociology class once where we analyzed 'types', and although it was based on data collected, it did characterize types of people like flood victims, Gypsies, alcoholics, Amish, cult members, etc. Although the judgments were based on data, the net result was the same in characterizing a group of people as a whole, where there are very likely to be some exceptions to those generalizations, is that wrong?

Anything can be used as damaging. In the old thread that you were referring to i was characterizing Jewish grandmothers, or maybe mothers, and it was based on my personal experience where i grew up in a very Jewish community, with all my friends being Jewish. These are stereotypes they use among themselves, and they aren't really all that disparaging.

There are no protections, nor should there be, from being offended (DDO would be shut down), and there are no guarantees against being harmed, as that too is inevitable. Stereotyping is simply a blanket judgment call, sometimes hate motivated, sometimes not, but it is inevitable and part of the human condition; it can be used for good or not, but it will remain.
nonentity
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12/4/2011 2:27:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/2/2011 3:01:37 AM, innomen wrote:
I apologize NE, it was somewhat disrespectful of me to not respond, and this was certainly not a hate-thread.


No worries. It was a long video and it was very charlesb of me to not summarize it.

While i understand there is potential for harm in stereotypes, and try to understand that this is something that i am intimately familiar with, it is both inevitable and useful. As a gay man i am almost always pigeon holed and stereotyped, and i really do not fall into the 'type'; is this harmful? I'm also white, and come from an affluent community (although not an affluent family), which also has a great deal of stereotypes connected to it, is that harmful? I have voted republican and have held some conservative views, which has a boatload of stereotypes connected to it, is that harmful? - Maybe yes to all of those harms, but life is not free of harm.


I agree that stereotypes are inevitable but I will humbly disagree with you when you say they are 'useful'. They are more harmful by far than useful.

It is normal for us to stereotype, and if you think you are exempt from this tendency i would challenge you on it.

I don't think I am exempt. But I don't believe they are justified, even when I use them.

We all do it all the time. For the most part it's harmless, and in some cases it's quite beneficial. If someone gives to the United Negro College fund, there's a good chance that's due to stereotypes. If someone is more cautious in an area of the city where there are visible signs of rampant crime, is that bad? It is a stereotype.


Not really. If there are visible signs of rampant crime you would have evidence for your behaviour in that particular situation so I wouldn't call it a stereotype. If you didn't have evidence for that particular situation and based on other assumptions you modified your behaviour, that would be a stereotype.

I took a sociology class once where we analyzed 'types', and although it was based on data collected, it did characterize types of people like flood victims, Gypsies, alcoholics, Amish, cult members, etc. Although the judgments were based on data, the net result was the same in characterizing a group of people as a whole, where there are very likely to be some exceptions to those generalizations, is that wrong?


I would need more information about that...

Anything can be used as damaging. In the old thread that you were referring to i was characterizing Jewish grandmothers, or maybe mothers, and it was based on my personal experience where i grew up in a very Jewish community, with all my friends being Jewish. These are stereotypes they use among themselves, and they aren't really all that disparaging.

There are no protections, nor should there be, from being offended (DDO would be shut down), and there are no guarantees against being harmed, as that too is inevitable. Stereotyping is simply a blanket judgment call, sometimes hate motivated, sometimes not, but it is inevitable and part of the human condition; it can be used for good or not, but it will remain.

But does that make them justified?
lovelife
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12/5/2011 11:21:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I put it in quotes (right?) Because typically the "---, I'm calling you out!" Threads are hate threads and there's certainly better titles that could have been used "innomen, stereotype harmful effects" for example. I didn't mean to mislead anyone into thinking I thought she was being hateful. It was about a week ago and too lazy to see what I wrote and was too tired so maybe I wasn't clear or something, so sorry.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
nonentity
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12/6/2011 12:40:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I suppose I could have had a better title, especially considering the lack of responses possibly due to addressing a specific person. But it was a direct response to something he had previously put forward... Instead of digging up that thread I just posted a new one.

Sorry if I sounded testy. It's final/exam time...
innomen
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12/6/2011 3:20:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Please don't apologize for anything about this thread, I'm flattered you're calling me out on this.

Me: "We all do it all the time. For the most part it's harmless, and in some cases it's quite beneficial. If someone gives to the United Negro College fund, there's a good chance that's due to stereotypes. If someone is more cautious in an area of the city where there are visible signs of rampant crime, is that bad? It is a stereotype."

NE: "Not really. If there are visible signs of rampant crime you would have evidence for your behaviour in that particular situation so I wouldn't call it a stereotype. If you didn't have evidence for that particular situation and based on other assumptions you modified your behaviour, that would be a stereotype."

I think we have a problem in what we consider a stereotype. In my example of a Jewish mother, or grandmother i was drawing upon my experiences with my Jewish friends growing up, and the input of their perspective as Jews who live in the culture. By your statement of "visible signs" my judgment is not a stereotype? I think you are incorrect in this. "Stereotype: A widely held but fixed and over simplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing" It is not dependent on evidence be it true or not, simply a generalization. Remove the stereotype that black people are in more need of help in upward mobility (for whatever reason) than other people, and you would remove a great deal of funding for the UNCF. Like i said, anything can be used for good or ill depending on the motives of the person doing the behavior.
nonentity
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12/6/2011 10:45:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2011 3:20:03 AM, innomen wrote:
Please don't apologize for anything about this thread, I'm flattered you're calling me out on this.

Me: "We all do it all the time. For the most part it's harmless, and in some cases it's quite beneficial. If someone gives to the United Negro College fund, there's a good chance that's due to stereotypes. If someone is more cautious in an area of the city where there are visible signs of rampant crime, is that bad? It is a stereotype."

NE: "Not really. If there are visible signs of rampant crime you would have evidence for your behaviour in that particular situation so I wouldn't call it a stereotype. If you didn't have evidence for that particular situation and based on other assumptions you modified your behaviour, that would be a stereotype."

I think we have a problem in what we consider a stereotype. In my example of a Jewish mother, or grandmother i was drawing upon my experiences with my Jewish friends growing up, and the input of their perspective as Jews who live in the culture.

It becomes a stereotype when you assume "all" Jewish mothers outside of the ones you have directly experienced to behave a certain way behave in the same way. When I say "all", I mean a generalization of other Jewish mothers, from which any deviation to your observation becomes an exception.

By your statement of "visible signs" my judgment is not a stereotype? I think you are incorrect in this. "Stereotype: A widely held but fixed and over simplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing" It is not dependent on evidence be it true or not, simply a generalization.

If a neighbourhood has rampant crime and you see it going on around you, what makes being more careful in it "oversimplified"? It becomes oversimplified when you assume everyone from that neighbourhood is useless and refuse to give them a job based on their address (this actually happens in Toronto). Attributing a behaviour to someone because of their race or religion is oversimplified.

And yes, they may very well be true sometimes (or most of the time) and they may very well not be harmful.

For example, Christians have a stereotype of being "good" people. "Christian behaviour" refers to acts of kindness and goodwill. When someone calls themselves a Christian, especially to another Christian, it comes with a whole bunch of stereotypes of what a "true Christian" is and therefore, what kind of person this Christian must be. This, on the surface, is not harmful to this particular person, being pigeonholed into a set of behaviours that look favourable on them. But what about non-Christians? Athiests? If a Christian exemplifies a "good" person, it often inherently implies that non-Christians are bad people.

This is why, for me, stereotypes are unjustified. Even "good" stereotypes have a "bad" stereotype lurking behind it.

Remove the stereotype that black people are in more need of help in upward mobility (for whatever reason) than other people, and you would remove a great deal of funding for the UNCF. Like i said, anything can be used for good or ill depending on the motives of the person doing the behavior.

To be honest, I have little knowledge of the UNCF so I cannot defend it and I'm not sure if I want to lol
nonentity
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12/6/2011 11:57:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2011 10:45:25 AM, nonentity wrote:

Remove the stereotype that black people are in more need of help in upward mobility (for whatever reason) than other people, and you would remove a great deal of funding for the UNCF. Like i said, anything can be used for good or ill depending on the motives of the person doing the behavior.

To be honest, I have little knowledge of the UNCF so I cannot defend it and I'm not sure if I want to lol

Although I'm not sure of how the UNCF works, there are scholarships in Canada specifically for black students (as well as scholarships with any other number of requirements) and the assumption is that many black students are disadvantaged because they are poor, or from a certain neighbourhood.

I don't really consider those scholarships based stereotypes, except that the requirement of being "black" may be unecessary. For example, although I am black, I am ineligible for all the "black" shcolarships because of my family's economic status. Many of the scholarships require you to be from a certain neighbourhood and are based on knowledge gained from community research (and not what I would consider stereotypes).
innomen
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12/6/2011 3:32:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2011 11:57:17 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/6/2011 10:45:25 AM, nonentity wrote:

Remove the stereotype that black people are in more need of help in upward mobility (for whatever reason) than other people, and you would remove a great deal of funding for the UNCF. Like I said, anything can be used for good or ill depending on the motives of the person doing the behavior.

To be honest, I have little knowledge of the UNCF so I cannot defend it and I'm not sure if I want to lol

Although I'm not sure of how the UNCF works, there are scholarships in Canada specifically for black students (as well as scholarships with any other number of requirements) and the assumption is that many black students are disadvantaged because they are poor, or from a certain neighbourhood.

I don't really consider those scholarships based stereotypes, except that the requirement of being "black" may be necessary. For example, although I am black, I am ineligible for all the "black" scholarships because of my family's economic status. Many of the scholarships require you to be from a certain neighbourhood and are based on knowledge gained from community research (and not what I would consider stereotypes).

I'm not talking about the eligibility of acceptance, but rather the motive for donating, particularly if you are white. The act of a white person donating to the UNCF is generally due to the stereotype that they are in greater need of help.

I think you are looking at a stereotype being something that can only be negative and you find a flaw because you think the person that is using it believes it is true in all instances. Both are incorrect; where i used my example of the Jewish mother being like my friend Steve Karshbaum's mother who is "typical". I certainly don't believe that every Jewish mother is like this woman, but she seems to embody all the traits. They aren't bad traits mind you, but just one's that seem to fit the mold, in fact pretty much every other Jewish friend would agree with this. There's nothing racist about it, or even bad really, she's a delightful warm funny person, she just happens to be the model for the stereotype.