Total Posts:55|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Choose your sex???

gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2012 7:42:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://shine.yahoo.com...

tl;dr This couple don't let their child be boxed into stereotypes about any gender, and allow him to explore both the genders. Given that in future, he would like to change his gender, she's open to it. At school, he wears the girl blouse with pants, he's allowed to explore his sexuality.

What do you think of it? I'm all for exploring sexuality and being what you want to be, but he is a child. Given that naturally, he is a boy, there are certain characteristics associated with it, genetically. Dress however you want to, I can accept that. But making him wear a girl's blouse with his pants at school, that's crossing a limit to prove a point. That does make him an easy target for bullies, and it's not even about that, that is forcing 'no-pressure'. He is going to so focus on his gender that all the other things would take a back seat.

Opinions?
wingalbrave
Posts: 201
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2012 7:50:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 7:42:46 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
http://shine.yahoo.com...

tl;dr This couple don't let their child be boxed into stereotypes about any gender, and allow him to explore both the genders. Given that in future, he would like to change his gender, she's open to it. At school, he wears the girl blouse with pants, he's allowed to explore his sexuality.

What do you think of it? I'm all for exploring sexuality and being what you want to be, but he is a child. Given that naturally, he is a boy, there are certain characteristics associated with it, genetically. Dress however you want to, I can accept that. But making him wear a girl's blouse with his pants at school, that's crossing a limit to prove a point. That does make him an easy target for bullies, and it's not even about that, that is forcing 'no-pressure'. He is going to so focus on his gender that all the other things would take a back seat.

Opinions?

Avoiding an exploration of one's identity because of a fear for "bullies" is essentially sanctioning bullying. Your argument is tantamount to the ridiculous notion that women should not dress how they please because if they do, they will be raped.
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2012 8:40:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 7:50:18 AM, wingalbrave wrote:
At 2/15/2012 7:42:46 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
http://shine.yahoo.com...

tl;dr This couple don't let their child be boxed into stereotypes about any gender, and allow him to explore both the genders. Given that in future, he would like to change his gender, she's open to it. At school, he wears the girl blouse with pants, he's allowed to explore his sexuality.

What do you think of it? I'm all for exploring sexuality and being what you want to be, but he is a child. Given that naturally, he is a boy, there are certain characteristics associated with it, genetically. Dress however you want to, I can accept that. But making him wear a girl's blouse with his pants at school, that's crossing a limit to prove a point. That does make him an easy target for bullies, and it's not even about that, that is forcing 'no-pressure'. He is going to so focus on his gender that all the other things would take a back seat.

Opinions?

Avoiding an exploration of one's identity because of a fear for "bullies" is essentially sanctioning bullying. Your argument is tantamount to the ridiculous notion that women should not dress how they please because if they do, they will be raped.

But then is this the right way to explore one's identity? He is born a boy. That is a fact. Now there is a very very low chance of him being psychologically a girl. So stopping him from wearing a conventional dress is pretty stupid, considering there is a high statistical probability that he's going to be a boy.

He does not want to dress as a girl.

There is a difference between allowing the boy to dress as a girl if he wants it, and making him wear gender neutral clothes, so as to 'not let him be stereotyped'. The ideas look good on paper, but this is an actual life. Whatever your decisions, the child has to live with that. The age is crucial, at that age, one needs to provide the child with a guidance. If the child likes to scream and throw food at walls, the parents would need to step in and stop. That is not stopping the natural growth of the child, that is guidance.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2012 9:05:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It wasn't that long. Can't say I have contention with a thing except that they refuse "hypermasculine" outfits, despite the child's interests, whereas clearly, feminine outfits are encouraged. That's counterproductive, but they also indicated that they wouldn't force him to wear things he didn't want to.

I think it's foolish to pander to society's social demands for your child. That actually detracts from individuality. I don't entirely agree with this couple, but I agre with and support their premise.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2012 9:08:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Also, gender psychology has little to nothing to do with inclinations for attire. Prince, for example, with his done up hair and high heels, is straight, as we're nobles in England during times of old that allowed their gentals to hang fashionably from just below their short-fitting tunics.
kyro90
Posts: 4,400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2012 9:55:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 7:42:46 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
http://shine.yahoo.com...

tl;dr This couple don't let their child be boxed into stereotypes about any gender, and allow him to explore both the genders. Given that in future, he would like to change his gender, she's open to it. At school, he wears the girl blouse with pants, he's allowed to explore his sexuality.

What do you think of it? I'm all for exploring sexuality and being what you want to be, but he is a child. Given that naturally, he is a boy, there are certain characteristics associated with it, genetically. Dress however you want to, I can accept that. But making him wear a girl's blouse with his pants at school, that's crossing a limit to prove a point. That does make him an easy target for bullies, and it's not even about that, that is forcing 'no-pressure'. He is going to so focus on his gender that all the other things would take a back seat.

Opinions?

Wow that sucks... :P Although that would be pretty cool to know you are the opposite gender than you were originaly known for.... Hmm..... Be right back.....
Oww.... Ok nvm... -__-
Allow me to give you my card....
Oh you cant read? Pitty. It says,
You are now holding the card of the Awesome-Steller-Second-to-none-hot-cool-funny-incredible-magical-beautious-cuddly-warm-kitty-kat-like Secretary
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2012 10:56:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
They are not initiating force against him as far as I can tell (so long as their ban on "hypermasculine" clothing is merely a refusal to provide), but they are clearly attempting to influence him in a way distorted from how he'd choose to react to the world on his own, just as a classroom debate where communism and fascism were permitted to be expressed but libertarianism were not would be an attempt to bias those in it in favor of the state. Not to mention I doubt there was a conversation about this "Wear a girl's blouse and pants," she probably just bought it for him and said here you go.

I can see at least two better solutions, one of which is more gender neutral. The gender neutral one is-- take him to the part of the clothing store where the girl's and boy's sections meet, then tell him to lead the way.

The other one is, let him know what's typical, why some people deviate from it, what kind of consequences they face, then let him pick.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2012 10:59:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Obviously both of those come BEFORE it's time for school uniforms. If you must wait until school uniforms time comes, show him both and tell him to pick. If he comes up with the idea of mixing them himself, great.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2012 11:49:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is disgusting and against nature. A person is not two sexes; they are only one. Whether they like it or not, they must deal with it.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2012 12:42:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What a load of ultra-ethically aware, pseudo-new age nonsense.

Why didn't they keep his ethnicity secret as well, then? Obviously they couldn't disguise his race so he is "pigeon-holed" as white.

And after the age of 5 it would be difficult to disguise his sex as well. so why bother?

What a stupid waste of time. I hope that poor kid doesn't suffer any lasting psychological damage as a result of his parents' ridiculous, self-indulgent politically-correct posturing.
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
kyro90
Posts: 4,400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2012 3:14:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 11:49:16 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
This is disgusting and against nature. A person is not two sexes; they are only one. Whether they like it or not, they must deal with it.

Wellyou could get surgery?
Allow me to give you my card....
Oh you cant read? Pitty. It says,
You are now holding the card of the Awesome-Steller-Second-to-none-hot-cool-funny-incredible-magical-beautious-cuddly-warm-kitty-kat-like Secretary
kyro90
Posts: 4,400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2012 4:38:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I know everyone is saying that its discusting and all to be the opposite gender of your original, but I bet you it wouldnt be half bad. I actually have tons of dreams where I am a girl instead of a boy. ^_^
Allow me to give you my card....
Oh you cant read? Pitty. It says,
You are now holding the card of the Awesome-Steller-Second-to-none-hot-cool-funny-incredible-magical-beautious-cuddly-warm-kitty-kat-like Secretary
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/15/2012 5:27:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 12:42:03 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
What a load of ultra-ethically aware, pseudo-new age nonsense.

Why didn't they keep his ethnicity secret as well, then? Obviously they couldn't disguise his race so he is "pigeon-holed" as white.

And after the age of 5 it would be difficult to disguise his sex as well. so why bother?

What a stupid waste of time. I hope that poor kid doesn't suffer any lasting psychological damage as a result of his parents' ridiculous, self-indulgent politically-correct posturing.

Yep
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/17/2012 1:59:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 7:42:46 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
http://shine.yahoo.com...

tl;dr This couple don't let their child be boxed into stereotypes about any gender, and allow him to explore both the genders. Given that in future, he would like to change his gender, she's open to it. At school, he wears the girl blouse with pants, he's allowed to explore his sexuality.

What do you think of it? I'm all for exploring sexuality and being what you want to be, but he is a child. Given that naturally, he is a boy, there are certain characteristics associated with it, genetically. Dress however you want to, I can accept that. But making him wear a girl's blouse with his pants at school, that's crossing a limit to prove a point. That does make him an easy target for bullies, and it's not even about that, that is forcing 'no-pressure'. He is going to so focus on his gender that all the other things would take a back seat.

Opinions?

First of all, you're asking the wrong question. The correct question is, "choose your own gender?"
Sex is biological, Gender is how you feel you are. You can have the sex female and the gender male or vice versa. Or you can be one sex and feel neither. The best predictor for whether someone will feel male or female is their biological sex. But there are, of course, exceptions. The couple raising this child KNOW that there are exceptions and that is the logic they are operating on. Transgender people are people who feel that they are the other gender from what their biological sex prescribes. Transgender identity disorder is an actual disorder in the DSM. As in, if you are a transgender female, born male, and you are taking hormones to switch sexes and you are taken to jail, the jail is legally required to continue giving you your hormones.

These parents did not "make" him wear a female's blouse. You've missed the point entirely. The point is, they are not trying to prescribe to him what gender he is. Only HE knows what gender he is and if he as picked a prototypically female shirt, he has done it of his own volition.

The other thing these parents know is that most of the time, transgender people know VERY early on that they do not feel normal as the biological sex they were born into. So, the fact that parents force their children to be a certain gender can be extremely disturbing and mentally confusing for transgender children. In fact, transgender adults/teenagers have an alarmingly higher rate of suicide than the general population and family and friends acceptance is key to reducing their chances of attempting suicide.

With this quote:
" He is going to so focus on his gender that all the other things would take a back seat."
You miss the point again. They are doing the opposite of that. They are not focusing on his gender AT ALL. They are treating gender as a non-issue and not assigning a gender to inanimate objects like toys and clothing. They are not assigning gender roles to certain behaviors or emotional states. They are attempting in all ways to not socialize him into a gender role. They are allowing him to choose for himself how he wants to be. There is no secret that women are put down for being assertive in the workplace and yet assertiveness is required of a good employee in many cases. There is no secret that men have problems expressing emotions of sadness because men are oftentimes put down for expressing that emotion though many relationships and, in fact, being a human being requires you to do just that. And it is no secret that both men and women are perfectly capable of being assertive and emotionally expressive.

The child is not "exploring sexuality." Saying that implies that they are encouraging him to be both attracted to boys and girls. Being transgender has nothing to do with attraction or sexuality and everything to do with gender identity. They are not encouraging him to do anything but be himself. In all likelihood, he will be a straight man who is not transgender, but in the event that he is gay or transgender, he will probably not struggle with depression and he will probably not try to kill himself because all he will ever know is love and acceptance. He will never have been pressured by his parents to be something he is not. And he will probably live to be a very compassionate person towards anyone who toes the gender line in any way.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/17/2012 5:00:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 11:49:16 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
This is disgusting and against nature. A person is not two sexes; they are only one. Whether they like it or not, they must deal with it.

LAWL
Attempting to not socialize is against nature? Attempting to not nurture, and to let nature run it's course, is against nature? Fascinating. Nature is disgusting and against nature. And how exactly was this conclusion drawn, if I may ask?

And yeah, actually, people can be two sexes. People can be no sex, or a strange mix, and people can identify as an opposite gender. People can naturally look like one gender but be the opposite sex. People can have the secondary sex characteristics of one sex but the primary sex characteristics of the other. People can change their gender. And that's not just my opinion- it's called genetics, psychology, and human sexuality. You should try reading up on it.

You view things so simplistically so much of the time. It's pretty impressive actually. I wish I [thought I] could explain complicated topics [I obviously don't understand in the slightest] with a few short self-righteous sentences.

I try not to be ageist but that is undoubtedly the mark of a teenager who thinks everything is so simple and he understands all of it. Sophomoric.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/17/2012 5:02:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 5:00:23 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/15/2012 11:49:16 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
This is disgusting and against nature. A person is not two sexes; they are only one. Whether they like it or not, they must deal with it.

LAWL
Attempting to not socialize is against nature? Attempting to not nurture, and to let nature run it's course, is against nature? Fascinating. Nature is disgusting and against nature. And how exactly was this conclusion drawn, if I may ask?

And yeah, actually, people can be two sexes. People can be no sex, or a strange mix, and people can identify as an opposite gender. People can naturally look like one gender but be the opposite sex. People can have the secondary sex characteristics of one sex but the primary sex characteristics of the other. People can change their gender. And that's not just my opinion- it's called genetics, psychology, and human sexuality. You should try reading up on it.

You view things so simplistically so much of the time. It's pretty impressive actually. I wish I [thought I] could explain complicated topics [I obviously don't understand in the slightest] with a few short self-righteous sentences.

I try not to be ageist but that is undoubtedly the mark of a teenager who thinks everything is so simple and he understands all of it. Sophomoric.

Also, who says they must "deal with it"? And why? What does "deal[ing] with it'" entail?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/17/2012 9:35:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
These parents did not "make" him wear a female's blouse. You've missed the point entirely. The point is, they are not trying to prescribe to him what gender he is. Only HE knows what gender he is and if he as picked a prototypically female shirt, he has done it of his own volition.

The impression I got from the article is that the blouse was the parents' idea. The child has no input.

Even if this impression was somehow wrong, the article specifically states that the most prototypically masculine things are banned, therefore, the facts don't agree with your interpretation-- they are indeed attempting to prescribe.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/17/2012 10:13:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 9:35:26 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
These parents did not "make" him wear a female's blouse. You've missed the point entirely. The point is, they are not trying to prescribe to him what gender he is. Only HE knows what gender he is and if he as picked a prototypically female shirt, he has done it of his own volition.

The impression I got from the article is that the blouse was the parents' idea. The child has no input.

Even if this impression was somehow wrong, the article specifically states that the most prototypically masculine things are banned, therefore, the facts don't agree with your interpretation-- they are indeed attempting to prescribe.

Ah gotcha. I didn't actually read this particular article. I read something else about it another time. And that was the impression I got from it.
Prescribing is dumb in general. But I still don't think forcing him to wear girls clothes is any more or less natural than forcing him to wear boys clothes.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2012 2:18:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ok, so I actually went back and read this to see how relevant what I wrote was on the topic...
It's still pretty damn relevant.

The worse thing they do, according to comments here, is "force" him to wear a girls shirt. And, really, it still doesn't sound like they are "forcing" him to do anything.

[Still, his mom is intervening. While the school requires different uniforms for boys and girls, Sasha wears a girl's blouse with his pants.

"I don't think I'd do it if I thought it was going to make him unhappy, but at the moment he's not really bothered either way. We haven't had any difficult scenarios yet." ]


What is there to take issue with here? He is not bothered and there have been no incidents "yet" she says. This section leads one to believe that if it makes him unhappy or if there is a "difficult scenario," things can and will change.

Also, the only things he is forbidden from is the hypermasculine and the hyperfeminine. I also don't see a problem with this. In fact, I would probably do the same. Polarizing the genders does nothing but reinforce unfounded stereotypes. At worst, it encourages little boys to solve their problems with violence and suppress all emotions except anger and encourages little girls to not be active and to be unnecessarily vigilant about their weight and looks.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2012 3:50:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 2:18:13 PM, Oryus wrote:
Ok, so I actually went back and read this to see how relevant what I wrote was on the topic...
It's still pretty damn relevant.

The worse thing they do, according to comments here, is "force" him to wear a girls shirt. And, really, it still doesn't sound like they are "forcing" him to do anything.

[Still, his mom is intervening. While the school requires different uniforms for boys and girls, Sasha wears a girl's blouse with his pants.

"I don't think I'd do it if I thought it was going to make him unhappy, but at the moment he's not really bothered either way. We haven't had any difficult scenarios yet." ]


What is there to take issue with here? He is not bothered and there have been no incidents "yet" she says. This section leads one to believe that if it makes him unhappy or if there is a "difficult scenario," things can and will change.

Also, the only things he is forbidden from is the hypermasculine and the hyperfeminine.
No, he's forbidden from the hypermasculine and from Barbies for an unspecified reason.

Polarizing the genders does nothing but reinforce unfounded stereotypes.
It's not a stereotype if the kid chooses it on their own.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2012 4:24:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:50:44 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 2:18:13 PM, Oryus wrote:
Ok, so I actually went back and read this to see how relevant what I wrote was on the topic...
It's still pretty damn relevant.

The worse thing they do, according to comments here, is "force" him to wear a girls shirt. And, really, it still doesn't sound like they are "forcing" him to do anything.

[Still, his mom is intervening. While the school requires different uniforms for boys and girls, Sasha wears a girl's blouse with his pants.

"I don't think I'd do it if I thought it was going to make him unhappy, but at the moment he's not really bothered either way. We haven't had any difficult scenarios yet." ]


What is there to take issue with here? He is not bothered and there have been no incidents "yet" she says. This section leads one to believe that if it makes him unhappy or if there is a "difficult scenario," things can and will change.

Also, the only things he is forbidden from is the hypermasculine and the hyperfeminine.
No, he's forbidden from the hypermasculine and from Barbies for an unspecified reason.

I would consider Barbie dolls hyperfeminine. I don't see why you reject that label. And I did only give my reasons for why I would do the same. I didn't try to speak for them.

Polarizing the genders does nothing but reinforce unfounded stereotypes.
It's not a stereotype if the kid chooses it on their own.

"Polarizing" here is a word I'm using as a verb the parents are doing/any parent can do. "Polarizing,"as an example, would be having a son and daughter and buying only hypermasculine for the boy and hyperfeminine for the girl- and this is what many parents do.

If the kid chooses it on their own, obviously it is not stereotyping. But I already stated my worries about polarizing and I see no harm in avoiding actively buying the children hyper-fem/masc toys/clothes. Only good can come from it unless the child ardently wants something the parents consider hyperfem/masc.

Going out of your way to polarize, however, is not good as it clearly reinforces unfounded gender stereotypes.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2012 4:35:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Umm. switch the words "actively" and "avoiding"
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2012 4:43:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 4:24:46 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:50:44 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 2:18:13 PM, Oryus wrote:
Ok, so I actually went back and read this to see how relevant what I wrote was on the topic...
It's still pretty damn relevant.

The worse thing they do, according to comments here, is "force" him to wear a girls shirt. And, really, it still doesn't sound like they are "forcing" him to do anything.

[Still, his mom is intervening. While the school requires different uniforms for boys and girls, Sasha wears a girl's blouse with his pants.

"I don't think I'd do it if I thought it was going to make him unhappy, but at the moment he's not really bothered either way. We haven't had any difficult scenarios yet." ]


What is there to take issue with here? He is not bothered and there have been no incidents "yet" she says. This section leads one to believe that if it makes him unhappy or if there is a "difficult scenario," things can and will change.

Also, the only things he is forbidden from is the hypermasculine and the hyperfeminine.
No, he's forbidden from the hypermasculine and from Barbies for an unspecified reason.

I would consider Barbie dolls hyperfeminine. I don't see why you reject that label.
I don't see why you'd apply it. Furthermore, one is clothing type and one is a toy brand. Why not toys and clothing from both?

"Polarizing" here is a word I'm using as a verb the parents are doing/any parent can do. "Polarizing,"as an example, would be having a son and daughter and buying only hypermasculine for the boy and hyperfeminine for the girl- and this is what many parents do.

If the kid chooses it on their own, obviously it is not stereotyping. But I already stated my worries about polarizing and I see no harm in avoiding actively buying the children hyper-fem/masc toys/clothes. Only good can come from it unless the child ardently wants something the parents consider hyperfem/masc.

Going out of your way to polarize, however, is not good as it clearly reinforces unfounded gender stereotypes.
Favoring moderation is just as much a bias as favoring either end of the spectrum. Moderation and neutrality are different things. "Actively polarizing" will encourage thinking stereotypes are closer to the truth than they are, actively dispolarizing will encourage thinking stereotypes are farther from the truth than they are.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2012 5:08:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Now, keep in mind, as far as I can tell the parents are acting well within their rights, since the child hasn't complained. This is a critique of their decision,not a call to put a stop to it.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2012 5:25:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 4:43:06 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 4:24:46 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:50:44 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 2:18:13 PM, Oryus wrote:
Ok, so I actually went back and read this to see how relevant what I wrote was on the topic...
It's still pretty damn relevant.

The worse thing they do, according to comments here, is "force" him to wear a girls shirt. And, really, it still doesn't sound like they are "forcing" him to do anything.

[Still, his mom is intervening. While the school requires different uniforms for boys and girls, Sasha wears a girl's blouse with his pants.

"I don't think I'd do it if I thought it was going to make him unhappy, but at the moment he's not really bothered either way. We haven't had any difficult scenarios yet." ]


What is there to take issue with here? He is not bothered and there have been no incidents "yet" she says. This section leads one to believe that if it makes him unhappy or if there is a "difficult scenario," things can and will change.

Also, the only things he is forbidden from is the hypermasculine and the hyperfeminine.
No, he's forbidden from the hypermasculine and from Barbies for an unspecified reason.

I would consider Barbie dolls hyperfeminine. I don't see why you reject that label.
I don't see why you'd apply it. Furthermore, one is clothing type and one is a toy brand. Why not toys and clothing from both?

Yes, toys and clothing from both.

"Polarizing" here is a word I'm using as a verb the parents are doing/any parent can do. "Polarizing,"as an example, would be having a son and daughter and buying only hypermasculine for the boy and hyperfeminine for the girl- and this is what many parents do.

If the kid chooses it on their own, obviously it is not stereotyping. But I already stated my worries about polarizing and I see no harm in avoiding actively buying the children hyper-fem/masc toys/clothes. Only good can come from it unless the child ardently wants something the parents consider hyperfem/masc.

Going out of your way to polarize, however, is not good as it clearly reinforces unfounded gender stereotypes.
Favoring moderation is just as much a bias as favoring either end of the spectrum. Moderation and neutrality are different things. "Actively polarizing" will encourage thinking stereotypes are closer to the truth than they are, actively dispolarizing will encourage thinking stereotypes are farther from the truth than they are.

Well there is actually a bit of both in my position.
There is moderation when the parent is buying things for the child without their say-so. There is neutrality, within reason, (age-appropriate, expense, etc.) when the child asks for something they very much want.

If you truly believe that my position is not neutral, then what is more harmful? Causing a child to believe stereotypes are truer than they are? Or causing a child to believe stereotypes are less true than they are? I think the former is more harmful. I've seen no studies evidencing that a disbelief in gender stereotypes leads to one not living up to ones full potential. The same can't be said of the former choice. Honestly, I'll choose the latter choice and know that they still live in this world and will see evidence of stereotypes all over all the time. There is no sense or reason in me actively forcing it upon them as well, especially when I know damn well that it's mostly a bunch of nonsense. It's already there for them in the world and hopefully with my guidance, they can learn that most of it's really just a bunch of bullsh!t.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2012 5:29:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you truly believe that my position is not neutral, then what is more harmful? Causing a child to believe stereotypes are truer than they are? Or causing a child to believe stereotypes are less true than they are?
By definition they are equally harmful to the child's knowledge.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2012 5:38:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:29:29 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
If you truly believe that my position is not neutral, then what is more harmful? Causing a child to believe stereotypes are truer than they are? Or causing a child to believe stereotypes are less true than they are?
By definition they are equally harmful to the child's knowledge.

But what makes you think that my position causes a child to believe stereotypes are less true than they are? Why is it either/or? Given that they still live in the world, they will learn of it. I've given no reason to believe I would be teaching that there is no difference between males and females. And if that was the impression you got, then that's certainly not the impression I meant to give.

And anyway, all stereotypes are not created equal. Some truly are completely false and are simply based on myth. Some others are exaggerated or distorted facts. Honestly I don't know that I've ever heard of a gender stereotype that was reinforced by science as an across the board truth, i.e. a justified stereotype.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2012 5:43:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:38:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:29:29 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
If you truly believe that my position is not neutral, then what is more harmful? Causing a child to believe stereotypes are truer than they are? Or causing a child to believe stereotypes are less true than they are?
By definition they are equally harmful to the child's knowledge.

But what makes you think that my position causes a child to believe stereotypes are less true than they are?
It makes them think that it's abnormal for girls to want to play with Barbies or boys to play with cargo shorts.

Why is it either/or? Given that they still live in the world, they will learn of it
A parent attempting to be objective and a parent attempting to be the opposite of someone else's nonobjectiveness are two different things.

I've given no reason to believe I would be teaching that there is no difference between males and females.
I never said you did.

And anyway, all stereotypes are not created equal. Some truly are completely false and are simply based on myth. Some others are exaggerated or distorted facts. Honestly I don't know that I've ever heard of a gender stereotype that was reinforced by science as an across the board truth, i.e. a justified stereotype.
I've never heard of one that wouldn't be true if it were reduced from stereotype to a statement of statistical prevalence.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2012 5:44:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
boys to wear cargo shorts.

Fixing.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/19/2012 7:59:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:43:39 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:38:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:29:29 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
If you truly believe that my position is not neutral, then what is more harmful? Causing a child to believe stereotypes are truer than they are? Or causing a child to believe stereotypes are less true than they are?
By definition they are equally harmful to the child's knowledge.

But what makes you think that my position causes a child to believe stereotypes are less true than they are?
It makes them think that it's abnormal for girls to want to play with Barbies or boys to play with cargo shorts.

I'm confused as to how you arrived at this conclusion. If anything, this would encourage both of them to think that nothing (neither girls nor boys playing with barbies or wearing cargo shorts) is abnormal. Any of it is considered acceptable when the child asks for it- and they probably will. Whatever desires for clothes and toys they have are specifically encouraged to not feel abnormal.

And they may wonder, after being out and about, why girls seem to do this more and boys seem to do this more. And they'll ask. And I'll answer.

Why is it either/or? Given that they still live in the world, they will learn of it
A parent attempting to be objective and a parent attempting to be the opposite of someone else's nonobjectiveness are two different things.

I've given no reason to believe I would be teaching that there is no difference between males and females.
I never said you did.

And anyway, all stereotypes are not created equal. Some truly are completely false and are simply based on myth. Some others are exaggerated or distorted facts. Honestly I don't know that I've ever heard of a gender stereotype that was reinforced by science as an across the board truth, i.e. a justified stereotype.
I've never heard of one that wouldn't be true if it were reduced from stereotype to a statement of statistical prevalence.

Yes, IF it were. In my studies, I've yet to find any prevalent gender stereotype with enough bearing in scientific fact to justify a hasty generalization. Stereotypes happen too much because people often think of humans in terms like "Men are like A and women are like B". There are these two columns of characteristics people think of that are seemingly opposite and rarely overlap. And especially regarding sexuality, a subject for which there are unending gender stereotypes, men and women are extremely similar, far more similar than they are different, in their sexual behavior and both have a great deal of variability.

Also, keep in mind the definition of stereotype- to repeat without variation. Humans are far too varied for any stereotype to have real meaning. It's doomed to fail. One half of the billions of people in the world is not one way while the other half of the billions of people are another way. Add to that, that when you've cut it down to gender, you still have to cut it down to culture, economic status, age, etc. There is not one single natural way for a female to be and one single natural way for a male to be. And that's what a world with true stereotypes would have to be like. We would be evolutionary dead-ends and would have died out long ago.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.