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Tomboys and Sissys

Oryus
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2/19/2012 2:31:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://shine.yahoo.com...
The article is from a couple of years ago but the concept is very relevant.

I made this thread to expand on the ideas in the "choose your sex?" thread. Here's the link if you want to check that out too:
[http://shine.yahoo.com...]

So what is worse? Letting your child be what they want to be or forcing them into a stereotypical box?

How do you explain why it is generally more socially acceptable for girls to dress in boys costumes and clothes and play with boys toys, but not so socially acceptable for boys to dress in girls costumes or clothes or play with girls toys?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/19/2012 2:50:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'd say you honestly shouldn't let your child act anyway they want. In all honestly, it will come back to haunt them if they don't follow social norms and children end up bullying him or her in the end.
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nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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2/19/2012 2:52:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 2:31:36 PM, Oryus wrote:

So what is worse? Letting your child be what they want to be or forcing them into a stereotypical box?


Ehh at the risk of sounding like a bigot, I'm not so sure about this. I don't see a problem with cross-dressing or any of the things in the OP, but I do see a problem with transgendered kids. I am open to any arguments people have in defense of transgender.

How do you explain why it is generally more socially acceptable for girls to dress in boys costumes and clothes and play with boys toys, but not so socially acceptable for boys to dress in girls costumes or clothes or play with girls toys?

Because society values 'masculine' qualities or stereoptypical masculine traits, while degrades feminine qualities or stereotypically feminine traits.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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2/19/2012 2:54:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 2:50:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I'd say you honestly shouldn't let your child act anyway they want. In all honestly, it will come back to haunt them if they don't follow social norms and children end up bullying him or her in the end.

This. If the child develops characteristics that will lead to social ostracism, then no one is to blame and people should try to be accepting, but in no way should a parent ever facilitate or permit something like that to happen.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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2/19/2012 3:03:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 2:31:36 PM, Oryus wrote:
http://shine.yahoo.com...
The article is from a couple of years ago but the concept is very relevant.

I made this thread to expand on the ideas in the "choose your sex?" thread. Here's the link if you want to check that out too:
[http://shine.yahoo.com...]

So what is worse? Letting your child be what they want to be or forcing them into a stereotypical box?

Forcing them into a stereotypical box.

How do you explain why it is generally more socially acceptable for girls to dress in boys costumes and clothes and play with boys toys, but not so socially acceptable for boys to dress in girls costumes or clothes or play with girls toys?

Because lesbians are considered exciting, while gay men are considered repulsive. This is because women are, in general, considered subordinate, so their socialistic behavior has less relevance. Therefore, they diverge from discriminatory morality (which, in my opinion, is based on a non-sequitur interpretation of homosexuality in general), and refer to excitement, which usually appears sexual, in response to deviant, though perceptively harmless behavior. The sister to that response is perhaps, amusement, in response to nonsensical, though perceptively harmless behavior.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/19/2012 3:06:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 2:50:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I'd say you honestly shouldn't let your child act anyway they want. In all honestly, it will come back to haunt them if they don't follow social norms and children end up bullying him or her in the end.

Well, acting in any way they want in general is a different story.

I'm talking specifically about dressing in certain clothes, costumes, and playing with certain toys. Specifically gender policing. Situations which would lead a parent to say something like, "NO. Boys don't wear that. Boys wear this. Put that back." or "Ew, you don't want that. That's for boys."
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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2/19/2012 3:09:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 2:50:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I'd say you honestly shouldn't let your child act anyway they want. In all honestly, it will come back to haunt them if they don't follow social norms and children end up bullying him or her in the end.

The same pressures could be used to rationalize delinquency and a lack of education.
Oryus
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2/19/2012 3:19:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I understand that the largest concern is bullying. I've heard it many a time in many different places from many people.

If you are forcing your child to dress a certain way so that they do not become the victim of a bully, how are you not sanctioning bullying?

If your 8 yr old son comes to you crying because he was called a "faggot" for wearing his favorite lavender t-shirt with the horse on it, and your reaction is to throw away the lavender t-shirt and buy him a black one, what have you just taught him?

Most of all- even if you did throw away the lavender t-shirt, and even if you didn't care that you might be sanctioning bullying, this type of approach does not work for transgender kids or gay and lesbian children who don't fit neatly into their gender box either. And these teenagers are the ones most hurt by this type of reaction to gender policing. What do we do?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/19/2012 3:20:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 2:52:19 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 2/19/2012 2:31:36 PM, Oryus wrote:

So what is worse? Letting your child be what they want to be or forcing them into a stereotypical box?


Ehh at the risk of sounding like a bigot, I'm not so sure about this. I don't see a problem with cross-dressing or any of the things in the OP, but I do see a problem with transgendered kids. I am open to any arguments people have in defense of transgender.

How do you explain why it is generally more socially acceptable for girls to dress in boys costumes and clothes and play with boys toys, but not so socially acceptable for boys to dress in girls costumes or clothes or play with girls toys?

Because society values 'masculine' qualities or stereoptypical masculine traits, while degrades feminine qualities or stereotypically feminine traits.

DING DING DING DING DING!
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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2/19/2012 3:23:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:20:03 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2012 2:52:19 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 2/19/2012 2:31:36 PM, Oryus wrote:

So what is worse? Letting your child be what they want to be or forcing them into a stereotypical box?


Ehh at the risk of sounding like a bigot, I'm not so sure about this. I don't see a problem with cross-dressing or any of the things in the OP, but I do see a problem with transgendered kids. I am open to any arguments people have in defense of transgender.

How do you explain why it is generally more socially acceptable for girls to dress in boys costumes and clothes and play with boys toys, but not so socially acceptable for boys to dress in girls costumes or clothes or play with girls toys?

Because society values 'masculine' qualities or stereoptypical masculine traits, while degrades feminine qualities or stereotypically feminine traits.

DING DING DING DING DING!

Well, yes, that's essentially what I was saying, though not quite so eloquently... it is precisely that. Because, essentially, women are considered inferior.

It's sad, because for all intents and purposes, women can be accepted as superior. However, in a world that began with the necessity for men to protect life while women create it, men became considered more important. There's no reason why we can't simply reject that notion.

On the other hand, given my interaction with women, I don't think I'd ever want them to realize the power they have.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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2/19/2012 3:25:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'll also add -- interesting, that now that we're at the top of the food chain, the only threat left to man is man. Accordingly, the only thing left to protect women from is other men.

So, if men stopped being monsters, they'd be redundant, except as fuckdrones.

Hilarious! ^_^
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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2/19/2012 3:26:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 2:31:36 PM, Oryus wrote:
http://shine.yahoo.com...
The article is from a couple of years ago but the concept is very relevant.

I made this thread to expand on the ideas in the "choose your sex?" thread. Here's the link if you want to check that out too:
[http://shine.yahoo.com...]

So what is worse? Letting your child be what they want to be or forcing them into a stereotypical box?

How do you explain why it is generally more socially acceptable for girls to dress in boys costumes and clothes and play with boys toys, but not so socially acceptable for boys to dress in girls costumes or clothes or play with girls toys?

Female homosexuality today seems much more socially acceptable than male homosexuality. Male homosexuality (especially being the penetrated partner) goes so deeply against the traditional conception of masculinity. Females dabble in bisexuality frequently and it's widely regarded as harmless, but a male who dabbles even a little will always have that label.

I also think it's definitely worse to force a label upon a child regardless of their core identity. It's a fundamental rejection and denial of who they are.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/19/2012 3:26:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 2:54:18 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 2/19/2012 2:50:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I'd say you honestly shouldn't let your child act anyway they want. In all honestly, it will come back to haunt them if they don't follow social norms and children end up bullying him or her in the end.

This. If the child develops characteristics that will lead to social ostracism, then no one is to blame and people should try to be accepting, but in no way should a parent ever facilitate or permit something like that to happen.

That's like the second time you've agreed with me on something. This is getting weird.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/19/2012 3:28:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:06:57 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2012 2:50:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I'd say you honestly shouldn't let your child act anyway they want. In all honestly, it will come back to haunt them if they don't follow social norms and children end up bullying him or her in the end.

Well, acting in any way they want in general is a different story.

I'm talking specifically about dressing in certain clothes, costumes, and playing with certain toys. Specifically gender policing. Situations which would lead a parent to say something like, "NO. Boys don't wear that. Boys wear this. Put that back." or "Ew, you don't want that. That's for boys."

Yea, and I'm talking about the same topic as well.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/19/2012 3:28:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:26:24 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/19/2012 2:54:18 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 2/19/2012 2:50:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I'd say you honestly shouldn't let your child act anyway they want. In all honestly, it will come back to haunt them if they don't follow social norms and children end up bullying him or her in the end.

This. If the child develops characteristics that will lead to social ostracism, then no one is to blame and people should try to be accepting, but in no way should a parent ever facilitate or permit something like that to happen.

That's like the second time you've agreed with me on something. This is getting weird.

I like it :D
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/19/2012 3:29:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:23:37 PM, Ren wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:20:03 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2012 2:52:19 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 2/19/2012 2:31:36 PM, Oryus wrote:

So what is worse? Letting your child be what they want to be or forcing them into a stereotypical box?


Ehh at the risk of sounding like a bigot, I'm not so sure about this. I don't see a problem with cross-dressing or any of the things in the OP, but I do see a problem with transgendered kids. I am open to any arguments people have in defense of transgender.

How do you explain why it is generally more socially acceptable for girls to dress in boys costumes and clothes and play with boys toys, but not so socially acceptable for boys to dress in girls costumes or clothes or play with girls toys?

Because society values 'masculine' qualities or stereoptypical masculine traits, while degrades feminine qualities or stereotypically feminine traits.

DING DING DING DING DING!

Well, yes, that's essentially what I was saying, though not quite so eloquently... it is precisely that. Because, essentially, women are considered inferior.

It's sad, because for all intents and purposes, women can be accepted as superior. However, in a world that began with the necessity for men to protect life while women create it, men became considered more important. There's no reason why we can't simply reject that notion.

On the other hand, given my interaction with women, I don't think I'd ever want them to realize the power they have.

Oh yes. I understood what you meant. You just explained it differently.

Your comment about mens redundancy as protectors made me lawl.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/19/2012 3:37:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:28:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:06:57 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2012 2:50:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I'd say you honestly shouldn't let your child act anyway they want. In all honestly, it will come back to haunt them if they don't follow social norms and children end up bullying him or her in the end.

Well, acting in any way they want in general is a different story.

I'm talking specifically about dressing in certain clothes, costumes, and playing with certain toys. Specifically gender policing. Situations which would lead a parent to say something like, "NO. Boys don't wear that. Boys wear this. Put that back." or "Ew, you don't want that. That's for boys."

Yea, and I'm talking about the same topic as well.

Ok. I misunderstood. But I am surprised you hold this view, as a libertarian.

So you do not think that you hold a deterministic view on the subject? That any meandering toward the gender line would inevitably cause bullying? And you do not believe that reinforcing gender stereotypes, in a specific effort to avoid bullying, sanctions bullying or blames the victim in any way?

This is a very hot-button issue, but do you also believe that women who wear provocative clothing should expect to get raped just as children who wear gender non-conforming clothes should expect to be bullied?

I understand that it's difficult to say you would risk the chance that your child be bullied in an effort to keep in line with a libertarian viewpoint. But the question remains nonetheless.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/19/2012 3:48:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I say you should let your child act whatever way they want so long as they don't hurt others.

That way they'll get whatever they deserve, instead of them getting whatever you deserve.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Oryus
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2/19/2012 3:50:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:48:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I say you should let your child act whatever way they want so long as they don't hurt others.

That way they'll get whatever they deserve, instead of them getting whatever you deserve.

Are you explicitly condoning bullying? Did LK hack your DDO account?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/19/2012 3:51:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:37:36 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:28:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:06:57 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2012 2:50:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I'd say you honestly shouldn't let your child act anyway they want. In all honestly, it will come back to haunt them if they don't follow social norms and children end up bullying him or her in the end.

Well, acting in any way they want in general is a different story.

I'm talking specifically about dressing in certain clothes, costumes, and playing with certain toys. Specifically gender policing. Situations which would lead a parent to say something like, "NO. Boys don't wear that. Boys wear this. Put that back." or "Ew, you don't want that. That's for boys."

Yea, and I'm talking about the same topic as well.

Ok. I misunderstood. But I am surprised you hold this view, as a libertarian.

I do not sanction that the government force men to wear boys clothes, so it does not go against my libertarian view.

So you do not think that you hold a deterministic view on the subject? That any meandering toward the gender line would inevitably cause bullying?

Since sex differences are reinforced by social means, in the form of bullying, yes it will inevitably cause bullying. Kids are @ssholes.

And you do not believe that reinforcing gender stereotypes, in a specific effort to avoid bullying, sanctions bullying or blames the victim in any way?


It's just a reality that bullying will occur and efforts should be made to avoid it. You wouldn't say that a child should talk to strangers or accept candy from strangers, and state that these actions "sanction pedophile". Of course not.

This is a very hot-button issue, but do you also believe that women who wear provocative clothing should expect to get raped just as children who wear gender non-conforming clothes should expect to be bullied?

Honestly, the idea that women who wear provocative clothing are likely to get raped isn't based on reality. I know what your going with that, but just felt like this needs to be pointed out.

Bullying doesn't just include acts of physical violence, but includes verbal and social abuse as well. As far as I'm concerned, nobody has the "right" to social acceptance, and if a child is not accepted because he wears girls clothes, this is the parents fault. There is virtually little benefit from wearing girl clothes.

I understand that it's difficult to say you would risk the chance that your child be bullied in an effort to keep in line with a libertarian viewpoint. But the question remains nonetheless.

No, because it's not a libertarian view at all. If my child becomes an adult and wants to wear women's clothes, then he has the right to do that. But that is different from childhood, in which he wouldn't know the risks and rewards of these actions.

And for the record, I'm not a full-blown libertarian. I'm probably one of the moderate libertarians on DDO.
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000ike
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2/19/2012 3:52:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:48:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I say you should let your child act whatever way they want so long as they don't hurt others.

That way they'll get whatever they deserve, instead of them getting whatever you deserve.

A child does not have the mental capacity to make decisions that would be best for him in the long run. If they make poor choices due to parental inaction,...how do they deserve the consequences? You're putting the level of responsibility due to fully grown adults onto five year olds, who's brains haven't even fully developed yet.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Ragnar_Rahl
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2/19/2012 3:53:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:50:27 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:48:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I say you should let your child act whatever way they want so long as they don't hurt others.

That way they'll get whatever they deserve, instead of them getting whatever you deserve.

Are you explicitly condoning bullying? Did LK hack your DDO account?

No. But it's better that they be bullied by their peers than their parents. It's better that they are free to judge the risks of being bullied against the costs of bullying-avoidance for themselves.

Measures should also be taken to deter bullying, of course, by school administrations-- but deterrence is not submission.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
darkkermit
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2/19/2012 3:53:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:50:27 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:48:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I say you should let your child act whatever way they want so long as they don't hurt others.

That way they'll get whatever they deserve, instead of them getting whatever you deserve.

Are you explicitly condoning bullying? Did LK hack your DDO account?

Do you seriously not know R_R? His nickname is "heartless bastard".
Open borders debate:
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Ragnar_Rahl
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2/19/2012 3:55:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:52:54 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:48:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I say you should let your child act whatever way they want so long as they don't hurt others.

That way they'll get whatever they deserve, instead of them getting whatever you deserve.

A child does not have the mental capacity to make decisions that would be best for him in the long run.
"Best for the child" can have no meaning without reference to the child's preference.

If they make poor choices due to parental inaction,...how do they deserve the consequences?
They made the choice.

You're putting the level of responsibility due to fully grown adults onto five year olds, who's brains haven't even fully developed yet.
"Full development of the brain" is at about 25. Are you suggesting that people should be slaves for their own good until age 25?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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2/19/2012 3:56:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:53:16 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:50:27 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:48:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I say you should let your child act whatever way they want so long as they don't hurt others.

That way they'll get whatever they deserve, instead of them getting whatever you deserve.

Are you explicitly condoning bullying? Did LK hack your DDO account?

No. But it's better that they be bullied by their peers than their parents. It's better that they are free to judge the risks of being bullied against the costs of bullying-avoidance for themselves.

Measures should also be taken to deter bullying, of course, by school administrations-- but deterrence is not submission.

And by bullying here, mind you, I mean physical force.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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2/19/2012 3:58:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And I highly doubt LK would advocate leaving any decision in the hands of anyone but the State.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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2/19/2012 4:00:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:53:16 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:

It's better that they are free to judge the risks of being bullied against the costs of bullying-avoidance for themselves.

No; they require guidance. Not even animals will thrust their young into social situations without guidance.
darkkermit
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2/19/2012 4:01:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:55:20 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:52:54 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:48:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I say you should let your child act whatever way they want so long as they don't hurt others.

That way they'll get whatever they deserve, instead of them getting whatever you deserve.

A child does not have the mental capacity to make decisions that would be best for him in the long run.
"Best for the child" can have no meaning without reference to the child's preference.

It is very unlikely that the child would benefit from the action. There's virtually no benefit in wearing women clothing. The child doesn't know the risk and reward from the action.

If they make poor choices due to parental inaction,...how do they deserve the consequences?
They made the choice.

The child doesn't know how to make the choice though.

You're putting the level of responsibility due to fully grown adults onto five year olds, who's brains haven't even fully developed yet.
"Full development of the brain" is at about 25. Are you suggesting that people should be slaves for their own good until age 25?

no, there is a cost benefit analysis based on how developed your brain is and the experience you have.
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Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/19/2012 4:02:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:51:52 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:37:36 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:28:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:06:57 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/19/2012 2:50:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I'd say you honestly shouldn't let your child act anyway they want. In all honestly, it will come back to haunt them if they don't follow social norms and children end up bullying him or her in the end.

Well, acting in any way they want in general is a different story.

I'm talking specifically about dressing in certain clothes, costumes, and playing with certain toys. Specifically gender policing. Situations which would lead a parent to say something like, "NO. Boys don't wear that. Boys wear this. Put that back." or "Ew, you don't want that. That's for boys."

Yea, and I'm talking about the same topic as well.

Ok. I misunderstood. But I am surprised you hold this view, as a libertarian.

I do not sanction that the government force men to wear boys clothes, so it does not go against my libertarian view.

Ok. I'm looking at "libertarian" more philosophically speaking- less political. But that's fine.

So you do not think that you hold a deterministic view on the subject? That any meandering toward the gender line would inevitably cause bullying?

Since sex differences are reinforced by social means, in the form of bullying, yes it will inevitably cause bullying. Kids are @ssholes.

Well, in the article in the thread I reference in the OP, the woman does have her son wear a girls uniform blouse everyday- just as the girls do -and, if what she has stated is true, there were no incidents and the boy has no problem with it and is happy. Also, I was a tomboy myself and, at various points in my childhood, did not own a single pair of girls shoes, a skirt, dress, or anything remotely pink and purple and I was never bullied. So I don't really think it is fair for you to say that bullying is completely inevitable. Maybe in certain areas of the U.S. or at certain schools- but not across the board.
And you do not believe that reinforcing gender stereotypes, in a specific effort to avoid bullying, sanctions bullying or blames the victim in any way?


It's just a reality that bullying will occur and efforts should be made to avoid it. You wouldn't say that a child should talk to strangers or accept candy from strangers, and state that these actions "sanction pedophile". Of course not.

This is a very hot-button issue, but do you also believe that women who wear provocative clothing should expect to get raped just as children who wear gender non-conforming clothes should expect to be bullied?

Honestly, the idea that women who wear provocative clothing are likely to get raped isn't based on reality. I know what your going with that, but just felt like this needs to be pointed out.

True. But people who would answer yes to the question believe it to be true, so the real truth of it didn't matter because of what I was getting at. I'm happy to know another person is not so stupid as to believe it.

Bullying doesn't just include acts of physical violence, but includes verbal and social abuse as well. As far as I'm concerned, nobody has the "right" to social acceptance, and if a child is not accepted because he wears girls clothes, this is the parents fault. There is virtually little benefit from wearing girl clothes.

I understand that it's difficult to say you would risk the chance that your child be bullied in an effort to keep in line with a libertarian viewpoint. But the question remains nonetheless.

No, because it's not a libertarian view at all. If my child becomes an adult and wants to wear women's clothes, then he has the right to do that. But that is different from childhood, in which he wouldn't know the risks and rewards of these actions.

Important to note.


And for the record, I'm not a full-blown libertarian. I'm probably one of the moderate libertarians on DDO.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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2/19/2012 4:04:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 3:55:20 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:52:54 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 2/19/2012 3:48:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I say you should let your child act whatever way they want so long as they don't hurt others.

That way they'll get whatever they deserve, instead of them getting whatever you deserve.

A child does not have the mental capacity to make decisions that would be best for him in the long run.
"Best for the child" can have no meaning without reference to the child's preference.

Its safe to assume that its best for the child to not be bullied, ostracized, or demeaned.
If they make poor choices due to parental inaction,...how do they deserve the consequences?
They made the choice.

Would you let a baby die if it made the choice to try and crawl down the stairs, and falls,....or would you get it away from the stairs?....

You're putting the level of responsibility due to fully grown adults onto five year olds, who's brains haven't even fully developed yet.
"Full development of the brain" is at about 25. Are you suggesting that people should be slaves for their own good until age 25?

Strawman really,....How does the level of development a 5 year old has cognitively compare to that of a 13-25 year old?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault