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Societal Treatment of Felons

DetectableNinja
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2/19/2012 5:20:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In a recent ad I saw against Santorum (who I most certainly do not support), one of the "negatives" they mentioned was that he supported giving ex-cons voting rights.

That mentality worries me deeply. I understand somewhat the idea of not being allowed to vote while in prison, but after? It's an actually despicable thing that there are those who would degrade criminals to second-class citizens once they're out of prison. This especially holds water when talking about a society based around civil interactivity and involvement. We're on a troubling path, with a huge number of Americans that are apathetic to anything but themselves. And yet there are people who would maintain and even extend the current disenfranchisement of American citizens because of a past crime? What?!

It's shameful how our society treats those who were criminals. Absolutely shameful. The hypocrisy is indeed amusing too--we proverbially spit and stamp in the faces of those who committed felonies in the past, when none of us are truly any better. This is especially true with child molestation. We dictate to those convicted of child molestation where they may live, what they may do, and then shame them publicly for what is, in many cases, a mental illness.

I do not condone the actions of murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc. However, when we make it so that a person who otherwise could help society has to pay for a crime forevermore AFTER he was supposedly done paying for it, and by damning him to unemployment, poverty, and suffering until the release of death claims him is horrible. What of the engineer who previously worked on a highly necessary project or his community before, say, murdering someone? Must he be relegated to the garbage can of society AFTER he's done what society has dictated "his time?" What of the doctor, who helped patients before she was convicted? Are these people subhuman? Should they be spit upon and shunned from society AFTER paying their debt? Should we continue to take the hypocritical moral high ground?

PS: Sorry for it being as long as it is. I'm just passionate about this.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Ragnar_Rahl
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2/19/2012 5:22:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Prison isn't a debt, it's a means of deterrence and dishabilitation.

Likewise with any post-prison penalities.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DetectableNinja
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2/19/2012 5:24:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:22:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Prison isn't a debt, it's a means of deterrence and dishabilitation.

Likewise with any post-prison penalities.

Then we should focus on actual rehabilitation in prison instead of punishment, when possible.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Ragnar_Rahl
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2/19/2012 5:27:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:24:50 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:22:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Prison isn't a debt, it's a means of deterrence and dishabilitation.

Likewise with any post-prison penalities.

Then we should focus on actual rehabilitation in prison instead of punishment, when possible.

Deterrence and dishabilitation are neither punishment nor rehabilitation. A criminal isn't someone with a broken leg that you rehabilitate. They are someone who does something the justice system disapproves of (hopefully because that something is harmful to others). The goal of the justice system should be to make sure that they don't do it again and others aren't incentivized to join them.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/19/2012 5:28:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:24:50 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:22:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Prison isn't a debt, it's a means of deterrence and dishabilitation.

Likewise with any post-prison penalities.

Then we should focus on actual rehabilitation in prison instead of punishment, when possible.

Except you do actually have to punish though. Otherwise, the incentives not to commit crime are low.
Open borders debate:
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DetectableNinja
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2/19/2012 5:28:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:27:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:24:50 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:22:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Prison isn't a debt, it's a means of deterrence and dishabilitation.

Likewise with any post-prison penalities.

Then we should focus on actual rehabilitation in prison instead of punishment, when possible.

Deterrence and dishabilitation are neither punishment nor rehabilitation. A criminal isn't someone with a broken leg that you rehabilitate. They are someone who does something the justice system disapproves of (hopefully because that something is harmful to others). The goal of the justice system should be to make sure that they don't do it again and others aren't incentivized to join them.

Rehabilitation would be the reintegration back into society.

Dishabilitation is a word you made up.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
DetectableNinja
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2/19/2012 5:30:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:28:06 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:24:50 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:22:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Prison isn't a debt, it's a means of deterrence and dishabilitation.

Likewise with any post-prison penalities.

Then we should focus on actual rehabilitation in prison instead of punishment, when possible.

Except you do actually have to punish though. Otherwise, the incentives not to commit crime are low.

I agree with that, but I think rehabilitation should be brought into a higher priority, though. Punishment comes with it, too, though.

The way things are set up now, with it being pure punishment, we have grotesquely high recidivism rates.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/19/2012 5:30:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:28:43 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:27:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:24:50 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:22:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Prison isn't a debt, it's a means of deterrence and dishabilitation.

Likewise with any post-prison penalities.

Then we should focus on actual rehabilitation in prison instead of punishment, when possible.

Deterrence and dishabilitation are neither punishment nor rehabilitation. A criminal isn't someone with a broken leg that you rehabilitate. They are someone who does something the justice system disapproves of (hopefully because that something is harmful to others). The goal of the justice system should be to make sure that they don't do it again and others aren't incentivized to join them.

Rehabilitation would be the reintegration back into society.
The WHOLE GODDAMN POINT is to get their behavior out of society.


Dishabilitation is a word you made up.
I'd have thought so, but it has 19,100 google results.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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2/19/2012 5:31:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Any criticism of society's actions always befuddles me, because to suggest a society do something unjustified (ie immoral), transitively suggests that morality exists independently of society, and society did not create it.

What moral philosophy do you harbor that suggests perpetual resentment unjustified?

( by the way, I completely agree with you, I just don't think any claim of something being wrong or unfair can be justified without some kind of ethical reference)
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Ragnar_Rahl
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2/19/2012 5:31:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:30:29 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:28:06 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:24:50 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:22:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Prison isn't a debt, it's a means of deterrence and dishabilitation.

Likewise with any post-prison penalities.

Then we should focus on actual rehabilitation in prison instead of punishment, when possible.

Except you do actually have to punish though. Otherwise, the incentives not to commit crime are low.

I agree with that, but I think rehabilitation should be brought into a higher priority, though. Punishment comes with it, too, though.

The way things are set up now, with it being pure punishment, we have grotesquely high recidivism rates.

They can't engage in recidivism if they are dishabilitated.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DetectableNinja
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2/19/2012 5:32:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:30:49 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:28:43 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:27:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:24:50 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:22:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Prison isn't a debt, it's a means of deterrence and dishabilitation.

Likewise with any post-prison penalities.

Then we should focus on actual rehabilitation in prison instead of punishment, when possible.

Deterrence and dishabilitation are neither punishment nor rehabilitation. A criminal isn't someone with a broken leg that you rehabilitate. They are someone who does something the justice system disapproves of (hopefully because that something is harmful to others). The goal of the justice system should be to make sure that they don't do it again and others aren't incentivized to join them.

Rehabilitation would be the reintegration back into society.
The WHOLE GODDAMN POINT is to get their behavior out of society.


Dishabilitation is a word you made up.
I'd have thought so, but it has 19,100 google results.

But there is no actual definition.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Ragnar_Rahl
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2/19/2012 5:32:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:31:41 PM, 000ike wrote:
Any criticism of society's actions always befuddles me, because to suggest a society do something unjustified (ie immoral), transitively suggests that morality exists independently of society, and society did not create it.
Society doesn't do things. Government treats felons in a certain manner.

The notion that morality is not independent of society strikes me as absurd.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
darkkermit
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2/19/2012 5:33:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:30:29 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:28:06 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:24:50 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:22:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Prison isn't a debt, it's a means of deterrence and dishabilitation.

Likewise with any post-prison penalities.

Then we should focus on actual rehabilitation in prison instead of punishment, when possible.

Except you do actually have to punish though. Otherwise, the incentives not to commit crime are low.

I agree with that, but I think rehabilitation should be brought into a higher priority, though. Punishment comes with it, too, though.

The way things are set up now, with it being pure punishment, we have grotesquely high recidivism rates.

agreed. Although there is kind of a optimization problem involved in this.

If you focus too much on deterrence, the threat of punishment is weakened. If you focus too much on punishment, then deterrence is weakened.

Also, the older one is, the less likely rehabilitation is to occur.
Open borders debate:
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Ragnar_Rahl
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2/19/2012 5:34:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:32:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:30:49 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:28:43 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:27:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:24:50 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:22:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Prison isn't a debt, it's a means of deterrence and dishabilitation.

Likewise with any post-prison penalities.

Then we should focus on actual rehabilitation in prison instead of punishment, when possible.

Deterrence and dishabilitation are neither punishment nor rehabilitation. A criminal isn't someone with a broken leg that you rehabilitate. They are someone who does something the justice system disapproves of (hopefully because that something is harmful to others). The goal of the justice system should be to make sure that they don't do it again and others aren't incentivized to join them.

Rehabilitation would be the reintegration back into society.
The WHOLE GODDAMN POINT is to get their behavior out of society.


Dishabilitation is a word you made up.
I'd have thought so, but it has 19,100 google results.

But there is no actual definition.

To rehabilitate is to restore an ability.

To dishabilitate is to remove an ability (in this case, the ability to commit a crime).
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/19/2012 5:35:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And some crimes aren't really "crimes". Prostitution and drug use isn't really a crime since no third parties are harmed in the process.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
DetectableNinja
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2/19/2012 5:35:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:31:41 PM, 000ike wrote:
Any criticism of society's actions always befuddles me, because to suggest a society do something unjustified (ie immoral), transitively suggests that morality exists independently of society, and society did not create it.

What moral philosophy do you harbor that suggests perpetual resentment unjustified?

( by the way, I completely agree with you, I just don't think any claim of something being wrong or unfair can be justified without some kind of ethical reference)

I don't think it's a specific ethical system, but what I'm suggesting is that our society is doing the opposite of what is necessary to maintain a healthy republican society, as well as the opposite of what our American society allegedly values.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
DetectableNinja
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2/19/2012 5:37:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:34:39 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:32:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:30:49 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:28:43 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:27:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:24:50 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:22:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Prison isn't a debt, it's a means of deterrence and dishabilitation.

Likewise with any post-prison penalities.

Then we should focus on actual rehabilitation in prison instead of punishment, when possible.

Deterrence and dishabilitation are neither punishment nor rehabilitation. A criminal isn't someone with a broken leg that you rehabilitate. They are someone who does something the justice system disapproves of (hopefully because that something is harmful to others). The goal of the justice system should be to make sure that they don't do it again and others aren't incentivized to join them.

Rehabilitation would be the reintegration back into society.
The WHOLE GODDAMN POINT is to get their behavior out of society.


Dishabilitation is a word you made up.
I'd have thought so, but it has 19,100 google results.

But there is no actual definition.

To rehabilitate is to restore an ability.

To dishabilitate is to remove an ability (in this case, the ability to commit a crime).

Thank you for the clarification.

I suppose what I'm advocating is the use of both.

Rehabilitate the criminal's ability to function and live in and with society.

Dishabilitate the criminal's ability to recidivize (I just made the noun into a verb).
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/19/2012 5:39:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:37:51 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:34:39 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:32:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:30:49 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:28:43 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:27:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:24:50 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:22:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Prison isn't a debt, it's a means of deterrence and dishabilitation.

Likewise with any post-prison penalities.

Then we should focus on actual rehabilitation in prison instead of punishment, when possible.

Deterrence and dishabilitation are neither punishment nor rehabilitation. A criminal isn't someone with a broken leg that you rehabilitate. They are someone who does something the justice system disapproves of (hopefully because that something is harmful to others). The goal of the justice system should be to make sure that they don't do it again and others aren't incentivized to join them.

Rehabilitation would be the reintegration back into society.
The WHOLE GODDAMN POINT is to get their behavior out of society.


Dishabilitation is a word you made up.
I'd have thought so, but it has 19,100 google results.

But there is no actual definition.

To rehabilitate is to restore an ability.

To dishabilitate is to remove an ability (in this case, the ability to commit a crime).

Thank you for the clarification.

I suppose what I'm advocating is the use of both.

Rehabilitate the criminal's ability to function and live in and with society.

Dishabilitate the criminal's ability to recidivize (I just made the noun into a verb).

It's the same abilities though. If I have my hand, I can be more productive, but I can also steal things. It's dependent on my choices which I use it for. Since a thief's choices have been demonstrated...
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
OMGJustinBieber
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2/19/2012 5:40:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've seen quite a few prison documentaries, and while conditions in some prisons are pretty horrible, I don't see voting as a right. Many felons are really broken human beings who can't be counted on to have the best interests of society at mind. Remember, a felony isn't a misdemeaner it's a serious crime.
darkkermit
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2/19/2012 5:42:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:32:52 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:31:41 PM, 000ike wrote:
Any criticism of society's actions always befuddles me, because to suggest a society do something unjustified (ie immoral), transitively suggests that morality exists independently of society, and society did not create it.
Society doesn't do things. Government treats felons in a certain manner.


To state that is to justify slavery or the holocaust since it was done by society.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
000ike
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2/19/2012 5:42:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:40:16 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I've seen quite a few prison documentaries, and while conditions in some prisons are pretty horrible, I don't see voting as a right. Many felons are really broken human beings who can't be counted on to have the best interests of society at mind. Remember, a felony isn't a misdemeaner it's a serious crime.

I thought voting was a census of opinion on how one would like to be governed, not a generic account of what is "objectively" best for society. Does society and all its inhabitants not choose what is best for it?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Lordknukle
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2/19/2012 5:44:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"In its 2000 ruling, Alexander v Mineta, the [U.S. Supreme] Court ... affirmed the district court's interpretation that our Constitution 'does not protect the right of all citizens to vote, but rather the right of all qualified citizens to vote.' And it's state legislatures that wield the power to decide who is 'qualified."

"As a result, voting is not a right, but a privilege granted or withheld at the discretion of local and state governments.... the U.S. is one of just 11 nations among 120 or so constitutional democracies that fail to guarantee a right to vote in their constitutions."
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Ragnar_Rahl
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2/19/2012 5:46:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:42:33 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:32:52 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:31:41 PM, 000ike wrote:
Any criticism of society's actions always befuddles me, because to suggest a society do something unjustified (ie immoral), transitively suggests that morality exists independently of society, and society did not create it.
Society doesn't do things. Government treats felons in a certain manner.


To state that is to justify slavery or the holocaust since it was done by society.
No, it was done by slaveowners and the government of Nazi germany respectively.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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2/19/2012 5:47:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:46:35 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:42:33 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:32:52 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:31:41 PM, 000ike wrote:
Any criticism of society's actions always befuddles me, because to suggest a society do something unjustified (ie immoral), transitively suggests that morality exists independently of society, and society did not create it.
Society doesn't do things. Government treats felons in a certain manner.


To state that is to justify slavery or the holocaust since it was done by society.
No, it was done by slaveowners and the government of Nazi germany respectively.

Also, I never said something would be justified if society did it, only that society doesn't do things.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DetectableNinja
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2/19/2012 5:47:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:40:16 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I've seen quite a few prison documentaries, and while conditions in some prisons are pretty horrible, I don't see voting as a right. Many felons are really broken human beings who can't be counted on to have the best interests of society at mind. Remember, a felony isn't a misdemeaner it's a serious crime.

The same can be said about a very large number of people in the US.

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax, age, sex, race, color, or previous condition of servitude." - adapted from the constitution.

Even though my argument is based in necessity to include voting rights for felons, it's folly to say voting isn't a right. And, under the last section of that combination of several amendments, previous condition of servitude (servitude is still legal as punishment--ie prison) is included under that.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Lordknukle
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2/19/2012 5:48:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Also, felons can often vote for candidates who might be compassionate or soft on felons and as a result, increase crime. This is unacceptable.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
OMGJustinBieber
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2/19/2012 5:49:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:42:41 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:40:16 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I've seen quite a few prison documentaries, and while conditions in some prisons are pretty horrible, I don't see voting as a right. Many felons are really broken human beings who can't be counted on to have the best interests of society at mind. Remember, a felony isn't a misdemeaner it's a serious crime.

I thought voting was a census of opinion on how one would like to be governed, not a generic account of what is "objectively" best for society. Does society and all its inhabitants not choose what is best for it?

Yes, but to have a legitimate opinion about how one would like to be governed is a different matter. If voting were a right it would be given to 2 year olds. Voting is a privilege. Democracy is a fragile system representing an enormous faith in the rational capacities of the common man. For most of history it was thought to be a pipe dream.
DetectableNinja
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2/19/2012 5:49:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:44:53 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
"In its 2000 ruling, Alexander v Mineta, the [U.S. Supreme] Court ... affirmed the district court's interpretation that our Constitution 'does not protect the right of all citizens to vote, but rather the right of all qualified citizens to vote.' And it's state legislatures that wield the power to decide who is 'qualified."

"As a result, voting is not a right, but a privilege granted or withheld at the discretion of local and state governments.... the U.S. is one of just 11 nations among 120 or so constitutional democracies that fail to guarantee a right to vote in their constitutions."

My point extended beyond voting.

But whatever...
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/19/2012 5:49:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:47:44 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 2/19/2012 5:40:16 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I've seen quite a few prison documentaries, and while conditions in some prisons are pretty horrible, I don't see voting as a right. Many felons are really broken human beings who can't be counted on to have the best interests of society at mind. Remember, a felony isn't a misdemeaner it's a serious crime.

The same can be said about a very large number of people in the US.

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax, age, sex, race, color, or previous condition of servitude." - adapted from the constitution.

Even though my argument is based in necessity to include voting rights for felons, it's folly to say voting isn't a right. And, under the last section of that combination of several amendments, previous condition of servitude (servitude is still legal as punishment--ie prison)

The ban is on discriminating based on previous condition of servitude, not on something correlated with previous condition of servitude.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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2/19/2012 5:51:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/19/2012 5:48:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Also, felons can often vote for candidates who might be compassionate or soft on felons and as a result, increase crime. This is unacceptable.

Also, democrats can often vote for candidates who might be compassionate or soft on felons and as a result, increase crime. This is unacceptable.

See how easy that is?
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus