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Identity,Expression,Orientation,Biology 101

Oryus
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2/23/2012 5:47:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've seen a lot of confusion and throwing around of different words (transsexual, transgendered, gender, sex, etc.) by people on DDO who don't seem to really understand the meaning behind what they say. Well intentioned people, I'm sure, but confused nonetheless.

This is a link to a graphic made by some blogger somewhere out there. I don't really know what else the site contains but I thought this graphic was a great Sex/Gender ETC 101 for folks who haven't thought about it much. For such a complicated topic, the author/artist, I believe, does a very good job of presenting the information in a way that is easy to grasp. I've studied the topic quite a bit in recent years and I would be glad to facilitate any type of conversation people would like to have to the best of my ability. I'm certainly no expert, but I feel I know enough about it to see that there is a lot of confusion here on DDO about it- more confusion than is typical for your average discussion topic.

Check it out and let me know what you think:

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com...
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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2/23/2012 6:15:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'd like to hear your argument for why we should accept transsexuality as "normal" if you consider it a mental illness. It seems to be the only mental illness we indulge and encourage...?
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2012 7:19:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 6:15:28 PM, nonentity wrote:
I'd like to hear your argument for why we should accept transsexuality as "normal" if you consider it a mental illness. It seems to be the only mental illness we indulge and encourage...?

The same reason we don't tell gay people they should be straight- it is normal for them and we are not going to change their biology or state of mind by parroting "that's not normal" to them all the time.
And honestly, one could make an argument that the only reason transgender identity disorder is in the DSM at all is because of one court case wherein a transgendered female had her hormones taken away after being imprisoned. She proved that when they took her hormones away, it caused her a great deal of emotional turmoil that she could not suppress. She was self-harming and suicidal when they took it away. If gayness necessitated some sort of pill or injection everyday, they would have fought for it to be considered a mental illness as well. As it stands, gay people don't need extra things, so they are content to just be "gay."
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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2/23/2012 7:20:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Man=Man

Female=Female

Man attracted to Female.

Female attracted to Man.

A wall of text in four lines.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/23/2012 7:22:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
We don't encourage it, we adapt to it. The best treatment plan is to make them into nice pretty traps (or in the case of F2M, well, there's no fun slang for that :( ).

Just like the best treatment plan with schizophrenia is antipsychotics. The best treatment plan for some types of paralysis right now is a wheelchair. Should we ban wheelchairs on the grounds that they "encourage" paralysis?"
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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2/23/2012 7:24:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Of course, I'm not in support of an obligation to hand out wheelchairs or hormones or anything. But if you claim to want the best for a transgender person, yeah, give them the hormones they ask for if you like their happiness more than the cost.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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2/23/2012 7:47:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 7:20:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Man=Man

Female=Female

Referring I'm assuming to biological make-up with no regard for differences between biological sex and gender identity.

Man attracted to Female.

Not everyone. Homos.

Female attracted to Man.

Not everyone. Lesbians exist weirdly.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
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: I disagree.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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2/23/2012 8:24:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 7:22:47 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
We don't encourage it, we adapt to it. The best treatment plan is to make them into nice pretty traps (or in the case of F2M, well, there's no fun slang for that :( ).

Just like the best treatment plan with schizophrenia is antipsychotics. The best treatment plan for some types of paralysis right now is a wheelchair. Should we ban wheelchairs on the grounds that they "encourage" paralysis?"

The difference is that we give schizophrenics antipsychotics to prevent them from having a break with reality; we don't give them drugs to facilitate their break with reality. Giving someone a wheelchair has nothing to do with their mental health, directly.

Maybe I believe I was not only born a man, but I was born a specific man, like King Louis VIII. Rather than indulge my fantasy, I should get help...

I think Oryus mentioned suicide rates (I can't remember if it was this thread of the other, but) people with schizophrenia also have high rates of suicide. That doesn't mean we should pretend their episodes are "normal" and allow them to make the transition into fantasy.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/23/2012 8:30:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 8:24:33 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 2/23/2012 7:22:47 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
We don't encourage it, we adapt to it. The best treatment plan is to make them into nice pretty traps (or in the case of F2M, well, there's no fun slang for that :( ).

Just like the best treatment plan with schizophrenia is antipsychotics. The best treatment plan for some types of paralysis right now is a wheelchair. Should we ban wheelchairs on the grounds that they "encourage" paralysis?"

The difference is that we give schizophrenics antipsychotics to prevent them from having a break with reality; we don't give them drugs to facilitate their break with reality.
We don't care about their break from reality, we care:
Whether the voices in their head are going to make them kill people
and, if we care about them personally: Whether they are happy.
That's why antipsychotics aren't prescribed to people with mystical experiences and whatnot. They don't want it, they aren't hurting anyone.

Giving someone a wheelchair has nothing to do with their mental health, directly.
Dawg, reality says they can't walk, why you giving them illusion of walking with wheeling?


Maybe I believe I was not only born a man, but I was born a specific man, like King Louis VIII. Rather than indulge my fantasy, I should get help...
Why? Are you happy being King Louis VIII? Are you gonna kill anyone?

An f2m doesn't believe "She was born a man," she knows she was born a woman, she's just not happy staying that way.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/23/2012 9:17:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Whenever something is a mental disorder, there's always the question of whether the person has a problem or if it is society that has a problem with people who exhibit this trait.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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2/23/2012 9:19:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 7:47:07 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 2/23/2012 7:20:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Man=Man

Female=Female

Referring I'm assuming to biological make-up with no regard for differences between biological sex and gender identity.

Biological make up directly corresponds with biological sex and gender identity.

Man attracted to Female.

Not everyone. Homos.

Don't you see the point of me saying this?

Female attracted to Man.

Not everyone. Lesbians exist weirdly.

Don't you see the point of me saying this?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2012 9:42:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 8:24:33 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 2/23/2012 7:22:47 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
We don't encourage it, we adapt to it. The best treatment plan is to make them into nice pretty traps (or in the case of F2M, well, there's no fun slang for that :( ).

Just like the best treatment plan with schizophrenia is antipsychotics. The best treatment plan for some types of paralysis right now is a wheelchair. Should we ban wheelchairs on the grounds that they "encourage" paralysis?"

The difference is that we give schizophrenics antipsychotics to prevent them from having a break with reality; we don't give them drugs to facilitate their break with reality. Giving someone a wheelchair has nothing to do with their mental health, directly.

Maybe I believe I was not only born a man, but I was born a specific man, like King Louis VIII. Rather than indulge my fantasy, I should get help...

I think Oryus mentioned suicide rates (I can't remember if it was this thread of the other, but) people with schizophrenia also have high rates of suicide. That doesn't mean we should pretend their episodes are "normal" and allow them to make the transition into fantasy.

Wow. You actually managed to say something more callous than Lordknuckle in one single thread.-- yeah, that's right, LK. I saw that badass syllogism.--

1.
So what if schizophrenic people have high suicide rates? Are you concluding that the hormone treatment condones the illness which then encourages suicidal thoughts? Because it doesn't. It lessens the suicidal thoughts. As if it would be bad and would "encourage" schizophrenic thoughts to give them treatment which lessened their suicidal thoughts.. Do you know what the main cause or reasoning for suicide is in each schizophrenia case? Can we generalize? Is it because they don't realize who they are? Because they are also depressed? Because they just don't know what they're doing? Because they can't handle their condition any longer?
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Because what makes you suicidal when you are schizophrenic, ideally, should be the thing that is treated. If it's depression, maybe therapy, anti-psychotics, and anti-depressants, if it is delusions of grandeur, maybe institutionalization, etc. Typically, schizophrenics don't have one simple-to-understand delusion that can be appeased with relative ease. But if they did, what can be treated should be treated, and to the best of our ability, all things considered. As I mentioned my old friend with dementia in the other thread- he had a common delusion: that he wanted to marry all of us. And when he inquired, we appeased because it was the path of less resistance and made everyone happier-and also it was the only solution because we had no way to convince him that he didn't actually want to marry us and if we tried, he would go into a violent rage. If our solution was not a reasonable treatment, I don't know what would have been.

2.
Once upon a time, there was a male brain....
A male brain feels it's female body is abnormal. The male brain suffers great distress from this profound cognitive dissonance. The male brain may be at high risk of suicide and major depression without medical intervention. The (fe)male brain is anomalous. We can't convince the male brain that the female body is normal; there is no such treatment.
We can make the female body anomalous to match the male brain and this serves to lessen suicide rates.

What, from this, do you conclude? I conclude that sex reassignment is the best possible treatment. It carries with it one heavy weight of a characteristic: it is the only treatment.

3.
When gay people were considered mentally ill, would you have told them to just have therapy and try to date the opposite sex anyway since they have an "illness" and it's in the DSM and all that? Despite their biologically rooted urgent desires and wishes though they were hurting no one? The idea, I hope, seems absolutely ridiculous to you. And that is because it is. You cannot talk or pray or will away a biological condition you were born with. There is a plausible alternative to no solution at all and it is sex reassignment.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2012 9:43:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:19:20 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/23/2012 7:47:07 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 2/23/2012 7:20:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Man=Man

Female=Female

Referring I'm assuming to biological make-up with no regard for differences between biological sex and gender identity.

Biological make up directly corresponds with biological sex and gender identity.

Man attracted to Female.

Not everyone. Homos.

Don't you see the point of me saying this?

Female attracted to Man.

Not everyone. Lesbians exist weirdly.

Don't you see the point of me saying this?

What? You're being prescriptive instead of descriptive?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2012 9:48:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:17:06 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Whenever something is a mental disorder, there's always the question of whether the person has a problem or if it is society that has a problem with people who exhibit this trait.

Tru dat. In some Native American cultures, as well as some other cultures around the world that I always forget the names of, transgendered and intersexed people were/are revered as very wise and viewed sometimes as a bridge between the two sexes, sometimes as a bridge between the mortal and spirit world, and were/are not forced to conform to anything at all.

(were/are=given the culture in question still exists; many cultures throughout time and space)
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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2/23/2012 10:17:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:19:20 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/23/2012 7:47:07 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 2/23/2012 7:20:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Man=Man

Female=Female

Referring I'm assuming to biological make-up with no regard for differences between biological sex and gender identity.

Biological make up directly corresponds with biological sex and gender identity.

So I assume that every biological male identifies with the socially prescribed role for his gender as is the case with every biologocal female right? It's not like gender is mostly just a sociological construct with a far ranging and inconcrete spectrum of positions. Oh wait.....
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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2/24/2012 9:56:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 10:17:39 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:19:20 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/23/2012 7:47:07 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 2/23/2012 7:20:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Man=Man

Female=Female

Referring I'm assuming to biological make-up with no regard for differences between biological sex and gender identity.

Biological make up directly corresponds with biological sex and gender identity.

So I assume that every biological male identifies with the socially prescribed role for his gender as is the case with every biologocal female right? It's not like gender is mostly just a sociological construct with a far ranging and inconcrete spectrum of positions. Oh wait.....

Are you actually implying that gender is not biological?

Lol!
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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2/24/2012 10:07:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 6:15:28 PM, nonentity wrote:
I'd like to hear your argument for why we should accept transsexuality as "normal" if you consider it a mental illness. It seems to be the only mental illness we indulge and encourage...?

I agree with Ragnar -- We adapt to it, we certainly don't indulge and encourage it. It's not like being trans is glorified in any way. The real question is though why do you care? Even if something like homosexuality was a "disorder" insofar as it isn't "natural," I'm assuming you recognize that homos aren't hurting anybody (including themselves) and should be allowed to enjoy the same rights and privileges as others.

Similarly, even if transexuality was a "mental illness" I don't see why you should care that people accept it and try to adapt to it. Clearly it impacts trans people insofar as heavily affecting their psychology, social standing and overall well-being. So much of our livelihoods are inherently gendered; that is, we ascribe gender traits and characteristics to so much -- colors, heck, even foods (eating meat is so manly...). As such, people who suffer from this "illness" are constantly tormented by it in their own way. I can't imagine what it'd be like to feel trapped in the wrong body, as so many trans people describe it.

So why do you care if people try to address this alleged illness so long as nobody is getting hurt and in fact helped? Measures such as requiring extensive talk therapy also encourage a healthy process and transition, rather than just having people make a big mistake in choosing to go through with hormones, surgery, etc.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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2/24/2012 10:08:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 9:56:05 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Are you actually implying that gender is not biological?

Lol!

Gender is not biological, it's social. Sex is biological. Try educating yourself before lol'ing at people and only highlighting your own ignorance.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com...
President of DDO
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/24/2012 10:41:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 10:07:00 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 2/23/2012 6:15:28 PM, nonentity wrote:
I'd like to hear your argument for why we should accept transsexuality as "normal" if you consider it a mental illness. It seems to be the only mental illness we indulge and encourage...?

I agree with Ragnar -- We adapt to it, we certainly don't indulge and encourage it. It's not like being trans is glorified in any way. The real question is though why do you care? Even if something like homosexuality was a "disorder" insofar as it isn't "natural," I'm assuming you recognize that homos aren't hurting anybody (including themselves) and should be allowed to enjoy the same rights and privileges as others.

Love it. I would go even further than you here though and argue that it is natural. I think people often interchange the terms "normal" and "natural" as if they were synonymous. If transgender identity disorder is biologically rooted and so is homosexuality, how can we argue that it isn't natural? The unnatural thing would be to try and force these people to go against what their brains are obviously telling them to do and what they are making them feel. Their brains are not "normal" and this is where the hate and confusion comes from. "THEY'RE NOT LIKE US! MUST CHANGE THEM!" Bah, humbug. Let it be.

Similarly, even if transexuality was a "mental illness" I don't see why you should care that people accept it and try to adapt to it. Clearly it impacts trans people insofar as heavily affecting their psychology, social standing and overall well-being. So much of our livelihoods are inherently gendered; that is, we ascribe gender traits and characteristics to so much -- colors, heck, even foods (eating meat is so manly...). As such, people who suffer from this "illness" are constantly tormented by it in their own way. I can't imagine what it'd be like to feel trapped in the wrong body, as so many trans people describe it.

So why do you care if people try to address this alleged illness so long as nobody is getting hurt and in fact helped? Measures such as requiring extensive talk therapy also encourage a healthy process and transition, rather than just having people make a big mistake in choosing to go through with hormones, surgery, etc.

*thumbs up*
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Zetsubou
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2/24/2012 12:19:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sex ("Biological Sex") isn't a continuum. In healthy humans you have a either an X or Y as your paternal chromosome for your 23rd pair. X is female, Y is male. This is definite and not part of a range.

Hermaphrodites and sex chromosome mutants also exist but they, like the sexes, are definites.

A side from this it's spot on. The distinction between the gender label/"expression" and gender identity is an interesting feature, well thought out.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Oryus
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2/24/2012 3:02:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 12:19:45 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Sex ("Biological Sex") isn't a continuum. In healthy humans you have a either an X or Y as your paternal chromosome for your 23rd pair. X is female, Y is male. This is definite and not part of a range.

Hermaphrodites and sex chromosome mutants also exist but they, like the sexes, are definites.

A side from this it's spot on. The distinction between the gender label/"expression" and gender identity is an interesting feature, well thought out.

Yeah, the genderbread person is certainly not perfect. It leaves out a lot of variety when it says that the in-between on the biological spectrum is simply "intersexed." And it is misleading to say that feature exists on a continuum when it really doesn't in the same way gender expression, identity, or sexual orientation may. They're still working on it if you want to tell them your thoughts:
http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com...
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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2/24/2012 4:32:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:42:31 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2012 8:24:33 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 2/23/2012 7:22:47 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
We don't encourage it, we adapt to it. The best treatment plan is to make them into nice pretty traps (or in the case of F2M, well, there's no fun slang for that :( ).

Just like the best treatment plan with schizophrenia is antipsychotics. The best treatment plan for some types of paralysis right now is a wheelchair. Should we ban wheelchairs on the grounds that they "encourage" paralysis?"

The difference is that we give schizophrenics antipsychotics to prevent them from having a break with reality; we don't give them drugs to facilitate their break with reality. Giving someone a wheelchair has nothing to do with their mental health, directly.

Maybe I believe I was not only born a man, but I was born a specific man, like King Louis VIII. Rather than indulge my fantasy, I should get help...

I think Oryus mentioned suicide rates (I can't remember if it was this thread of the other, but) people with schizophrenia also have high rates of suicide. That doesn't mean we should pretend their episodes are "normal" and allow them to make the transition into fantasy.

Wow. You actually managed to say something more callous than Lordknuckle in one single thread.-- yeah, that's right, LK. I saw that badass syllogism.--


lol Okay? I'll respond to this later when I have more time. I don't know why you're getting your panties in a twist. You seem to agree that transsexuality is a disorder.

1.
So what if schizophrenic people have high suicide rates? Are you concluding that the hormone treatment condones the illness which then encourages suicidal thoughts? Because it doesn't. It lessens the suicidal thoughts. As if it would be bad and would "encourage" schizophrenic thoughts to give them treatment which lessened their suicidal thoughts.. Do you know what the main cause or reasoning for suicide is in each schizophrenia case? Can we generalize? Is it because they don't realize who they are? Because they are also depressed? Because they just don't know what they're doing? Because they can't handle their condition any longer?
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Because what makes you suicidal when you are schizophrenic, ideally, should be the thing that is treated. If it's depression, maybe therapy, anti-psychotics, and anti-depressants, if it is delusions of grandeur, maybe institutionalization, etc. Typically, schizophrenics don't have one simple-to-understand delusion that can be appeased with relative ease. But if they did, what can be treated should be treated, and to the best of our ability, all things considered. As I mentioned my old friend with dementia in the other thread- he had a common delusion: that he wanted to marry all of us. And when he inquired, we appeased because it was the path of less resistance and made everyone happier-and also it was the only solution because we had no way to convince him that he didn't actually want to marry us and if we tried, he would go into a violent rage. If our solution was not a reasonable treatment, I don't know what would have been.

2.
Once upon a time, there was a male brain....
A male brain feels it's female body is abnormal. The male brain suffers great distress from this profound cognitive dissonance. The male brain may be at high risk of suicide and major depression without medical intervention. The (fe)male brain is anomalous. We can't convince the male brain that the female body is normal; there is no such treatment.
We can make the female body anomalous to match the male brain and this serves to lessen suicide rates.

What, from this, do you conclude? I conclude that sex reassignment is the best possible treatment. It carries with it one heavy weight of a characteristic: it is the only treatment.

3.
When gay people were considered mentally ill, would you have told them to just have therapy and try to date the opposite sex anyway since they have an "illness" and it's in the DSM and all that? Despite their biologically rooted urgent desires and wishes though they were hurting no one? The idea, I hope, seems absolutely ridiculous to you. And that is because it is. You cannot talk or pray or will away a biological condition you were born with. There is a plausible alternative to no solution at all and it is sex reassignment.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/24/2012 10:30:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"lol Okay? I'll respond to this later when I have more time. I don't know why you're getting your panties in a twist. You seem to agree that transsexuality is a disorder."

To this I say-
"I have shown incredible restraint in the face of unrelenting stupidity."

Your opinion on this matter does teeter on the borderline of bigotry. As you can see, I've been a lot kinder to you than I have been to Jimtimmy(not that he cares). But unlike him, you seem to be a reasonable person.

I agree with "transsexuality" being a biological condition out of one's control which also happens to conflict with societal norms. And I agree that it should be considered a mental illness because it oftentimes requires medical treatment, the absence of which would be detrimental to some transgendered persons mental well-being and, sometimes, their physical safety. It behooves them to have the state considered a "disorder" because of this requirement. As I said before, if gay people required some sort of shot, they would all be lobbying for gayness to be in the DSM. As it stands, the classification as an identity disorder affords you the position of "well, it's not normal and I can't empathize with it so we should try as much as possible to make these people like me." In other words, it gives you more leeway to act a bigot.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
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2/24/2012 10:40:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 10:30:49 PM, Oryus wrote:
"lol Okay? I'll respond to this later when I have more time. I don't know why you're getting your panties in a twist. You seem to agree that transsexuality is a disorder."

To this I say-
"I have shown incredible restraint in the face of unrelenting stupidity."


I'm not going to get into an ad hominem war with you. To be honest, I don't even want to talk to you anymore. What I posted in the other thread is the last I'm going to say in the matter. You can talk down to someone else, thank you.

Your opinion on this matter does teeter on the borderline of bigotry. As you can see, I've been a lot kinder to you than I have been to Jimtimmy(not that he cares). But unlike him, you seem to be a reasonable person.

I agree with "transsexuality" being a biological condition out of one's control which also happens to conflict with societal norms. And I agree that it should be considered a mental illness because it oftentimes requires medical treatment, the absence of which would be detrimental to some transgendered persons mental well-being and, sometimes, their physical safety. It behooves them to have the state considered a "disorder" because of this requirement. As I said before, if gay people required some sort of shot, they would all be lobbying for gayness to be in the DSM. As it stands, the classification as an identity disorder affords you the position of "well, it's not normal and I can't empathize with it so we should try as much as possible to make these people like me." In other words, it gives you more leeway to act a bigot.