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Raising kids to debate

Kleptin
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2/23/2012 11:04:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've been toying around with this concept for a while. I have a personal distaste for the way a lot of children are being raised nowadays. I was never given an actual allowance, nor was I paid for doing chores. I did my chores because I recognized them as a responsibility to the household, and I received money when I legitimately needed something.

I feel that because I am more privileged than my parents are, I am also less likely to pass on good morals and responsibility, and I fear spoiling my children. On the flip side, my parents sacrificed for me such that I would never want for anything, and I know I'll have that same mentality as a parent. If I can provide for their happiness, I should.

I concluded that a good way would be to make my children argue for what they want, in a controlled and organized way.

They will perform chores as I did, with no reward and with the understanding that it is their responsibility as part of the household. They will receive no allowance unless they have proven to me that they require it.

From a very early age, if they want something, I'll ask them "why?" and I'll make them give me a list of reasons until I'm satisfied, then I'll grant their wish. As they grow and their wants become more complex, my requirements will match. If my teenage daughter wants a new pair of boots, I'll require that she explains why she wants the boots, why I would NOT want to get her the boots, why it would be a good idea for me to buy her the boots regardless, and perhaps a bunch of follow-up issues like peer pressure, the importance of fashion, the significance of fitting in socially, etc.

If my kids can explain all of this to me, I'd be willing to buy them whatever they want.

It will also train them to be able to communicate effectively when they grow up, network, make connections, get ahead, etc.

Thoughts?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
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2/23/2012 11:23:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
LOL, even IF, it would be the same issues. Just a different price tag XD
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
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2/23/2012 11:25:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 11:23:12 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
As a parent of a teenager I would say it works only if your child trusts you completely, not an easy feat.

I think it depends when you start. If they learn to trust that you'll deliver if they meet your requirements at an early age, then it won't be hard.

However, all the planning in the world can't help you prepare for parenthood. You can try your best but eventually, the most random things happen and your child turns out to be something completely different >.>
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,222
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2/23/2012 11:29:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think if I remember right, you have a very logical way of looking at things while at the same time being extremely compassionate. Odds are your kids will worship you since you optimally provide both structure and comfort.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/24/2012 4:04:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm the guardian of my teenage brother and I do just that. He's never given anything without first giving me at least one good reason and I certainly don't give him money to do chores he should do without even being asked.

Also, he has a choice between living in a collectivist house or an unquestionable fascist house. Yeah, those are the only two choices.

If he gives as much as I do as far as housework/chores and such- he can choose when he does his half of the chores and I never say a word to him about it. If he skips out on doing chores, I get to interrupt him in whatever he's doing- I don't care if he is winning an epic 1v1 on the xbox, or if he is about to go out, he's doing what I say this very moment, no questions asked, because he is not allowing the household to run smoothly by being a lazy a$s. If he takes up my time by forcing me to hold his hand through simple household tasks, then he doesn't get to have his own time either (obviously, he wouldn't be interrupted while eating, showering, or sleeping- but sleeping in, I'll wake him up from that to do chores if he has decided to live in fascism for a while).

Also, he is forbidden from saying anything like, "I'll do the dishes for you" because that implies that the chores are, by default, mine to do and he is simply helping me out. He never does chores "for me," he does chores because everybody has to do chores because that's what it means to live in a home in America in 2012.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/24/2012 4:08:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
An unexpected thing happened from my setup, actually.
When he can't think of a good reason for me to buy him something, he bargains for it with his labor- which I told him is the only thing he can really offer since he has no capital.
And offering me something in return, well that's as good a reason as any other to buy him things so I typically agree to it.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/24/2012 4:37:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
debating with a parent =/= debating on DDO.

For example, especially if it is a female, stating that item "A" is for sex, and stating the benefits of sex might not be a good idea, even If your arguments are better.
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ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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2/24/2012 4:42:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I wouldn't say I was raised to debate but...

My parents were constantly having political discussion at the dinner table, we shared ideas, argued, discussed about all sorts of topics and I think it helped to turn me into and independent and intelligent person and that transferred into me wanting to debate.

It helped me.
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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2/24/2012 4:54:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 4:42:35 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
I wouldn't say I was raised to debate but...

My parents were constantly having political discussion at the dinner table, we shared ideas, argued, discussed about all sorts of topics and I think it helped to turn me into and independent and intelligent person and that transferred into me wanting to debate.

It helped me.

Did you do debate in high school?
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Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/24/2012 8:00:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 4:37:33 PM, darkkermit wrote:
debating with a parent =/= debating on DDO.

For example, especially if it is a female, stating that item "A" is for sex, and stating the benefits of sex might not be a good idea, even If your arguments are better.

watchu talkin bout?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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2/27/2012 2:27:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 11:04:09 PM, Kleptin wrote:
I've been toying around with this concept for a while. I have a personal distaste for the way a lot of children are being raised nowadays. I was never given an actual allowance, nor was I paid for doing chores. I did my chores because I recognized them as a responsibility to the household, and I received money when I legitimately needed something.

I feel that because I am more privileged than my parents are, I am also less likely to pass on good morals and responsibility, and I fear spoiling my children. On the flip side, my parents sacrificed for me such that I would never want for anything, and I know I'll have that same mentality as a parent. If I can provide for their happiness, I should.

I concluded that a good way would be to make my children argue for what they want, in a controlled and organized way.

They will perform chores as I did, with no reward and with the understanding that it is their responsibility as part of the household. They will receive no allowance unless they have proven to me that they require it.

From a very early age, if they want something, I'll ask them "why?" and I'll make them give me a list of reasons until I'm satisfied, then I'll grant their wish. As they grow and their wants become more complex, my requirements will match. If my teenage daughter wants a new pair of boots, I'll require that she explains why she wants the boots, why I would NOT want to get her the boots, why it would be a good idea for me to buy her the boots regardless, and perhaps a bunch of follow-up issues like peer pressure, the importance of fashion, the significance of fitting in socially, etc.

If my kids can explain all of this to me, I'd be willing to buy them whatever they want.

It will also train them to be able to communicate effectively when they grow up, network, make connections, get ahead, etc.

Thoughts?

The Fool: this is an argument from tradition. a logical fallacy in that there is not reason why they should have to do something "just because" you did.

Every generation from the beginning of time complains about the next generation.
"the world is going to hell in a hand basket" they say. It never does though, its always feels that way because the world is always changing, and we get used to it that way. It is usually the understanding of the world we devope in are early 20 that tend to linger on as part of are world view. But don't fool youself it is always changing, you save youself alot of hardache if you just admitted, as fact.

The Fool: For example latest child psychology demonstrates that they worst thing you could do is get you children to do work and not explain why they should participate. You want to teach them to trust people who have earned it. You don't want them to turn into Fools right? ;)You need to modal by always giving reasons for making them do thing aswell so they understand that they need to give reasons. If not, you will appear hypocritical, and you word won't be worth anything over time.

The Fool: Its healty to give them money for work, because it teaches them good work ethics. They should get things because they earned it. Not just because they need it. Plus it give you something to take away, when they don't earn it. Punishment doesn't work, as well as we think. It just make them resent the punisheryou. You just make them better criminals as they know all they have to do is avoid you and it is okay to do. You want them to do it because its the right thing to do. Not because of fear.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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2/27/2012 6:12:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 11:04:09 PM, Kleptin wrote:
I've been toying around with this concept for a while. I have a personal distaste for the way a lot of children are being raised nowadays. I was never given an actual allowance, nor was I paid for doing chores. I did my chores because I recognized them as a responsibility to the household, and I received money when I legitimately needed something.

I feel that because I am more privileged than my parents are, I am also less likely to pass on good morals and responsibility, and I fear spoiling my children. On the flip side, my parents sacrificed for me such that I would never want for anything, and I know I'll have that same mentality as a parent. If I can provide for their happiness, I should.

I concluded that a good way would be to make my children argue for what they want, in a controlled and organized way.

They will perform chores as I did, with no reward and with the understanding that it is their responsibility as part of the household. They will receive no allowance unless they have proven to me that they require it.

I think giving them pocket money would be a better alternative. I don't know the amount you're talking about, but giving them a reasonable amount and impressing upon them that they'd not get any more; would teach them discipline. Arguing with you about everything they want, or explaining every thing they need would be... frustrating, at least for me.

From a very early age, if they want something, I'll ask them "why?" and I'll make them give me a list of reasons until I'm satisfied, then I'll grant their wish. As they grow and their wants become more complex, my requirements will match. If my teenage daughter wants a new pair of boots, I'll require that she explains why she wants the boots, why I would NOT want to get her the boots, why it would be a good idea for me to buy her the boots regardless, and perhaps a bunch of follow-up issues like peer pressure, the importance of fashion, the significance of fitting in socially, etc.

If my kids can explain all of this to me, I'd be willing to buy them whatever they want.

It will also train them to be able to communicate effectively when they grow up, network, make connections, get ahead, etc.

Thoughts?

When they're quite young, that'd be a tough feat. Considering that they are not likely to have a good reason for wanting a lot of things, and that you'd triumph a lot of the 'debates', they would feel cheated. If you can turn that around, rationally explain the reasoning to them, and not cough up up when they start crying/ give you a puppy eyed look, and are yourself disciplined and don't spend on things you don't really need, I can see it working.
buelg
Posts: 79
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2/27/2012 6:22:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 11:04:09 PM, Kleptin wrote:
I've been toying around with this concept for a while. I have a personal distaste for the way a lot of children are being raised nowadays. I was never given an actual allowance, nor was I paid for doing chores. I did my chores because I recognized them as a responsibility to the household, and I received money when I legitimately needed something.

I feel that because I am more privileged than my parents are, I am also less likely to pass on good morals and responsibility, and I fear spoiling my children. On the flip side, my parents sacrificed for me such that I would never want for anything, and I know I'll have that same mentality as a parent. If I can provide for their happiness, I should.

I concluded that a good way would be to make my children argue for what they want, in a controlled and organized way.

They will perform chores as I did, with no reward and with the understanding that it is their responsibility as part of the household. They will receive no allowance unless they have proven to me that they require it.

From a very early age, if they want something, I'll ask them "why?" and I'll make them give me a list of reasons until I'm satisfied, then I'll grant their wish. As they grow and their wants become more complex, my requirements will match. If my teenage daughter wants a new pair of boots, I'll require that she explains why she wants the boots, why I would NOT want to get her the boots, why it would be a good idea for me to buy her the boots regardless, and perhaps a bunch of follow-up issues like peer pressure, the importance of fashion, the significance of fitting in socially, etc.

If my kids can explain all of this to me, I'd be willing to buy them whatever they want.

It will also train them to be able to communicate effectively when they grow up, network, make connections, get ahead, etc.

Thoughts?

As a child my self, I think it is absolutely natural to ask a kid why that kid wants that stuff. But still, you shouldn't go too much though.
Kleptin
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3/9/2012 4:47:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 4:37:33 PM, darkkermit wrote:
debating with a parent =/= debating on DDO.

For example, especially if it is a female, stating that item "A" is for sex, and stating the benefits of sex might not be a good idea, even If your arguments are better.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make here, but I'll expand on what I think you're saying to see if I address it.

If I raise my daughter in this way up to the point where she is a teenager and now, she is petitioning me (for some reason) to not intervene in her wish to start having sex, I think that the skills I taught her in critical thinking will help her figure out whether or not this is something she really wants to do. There would have been many petitions prior to this that address the same issues as a teenage girl seeking to become sexually active, and it's probably unlikely that she'll even think of it.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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3/9/2012 4:52:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/27/2012 6:12:50 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
When they're quite young, that'd be a tough feat. Considering that they are not likely to have a good reason for wanting a lot of things, and that you'd triumph a lot of the 'debates', they would feel cheated. If you can turn that around, rationally explain the reasoning to them, and not cough up up when they start crying/ give you a puppy eyed look, and are yourself disciplined and don't spend on things you don't really need, I can see it working.

When they're young, it's going to be very light. If they want an ice cream, for example, I would ask them why. I won't expect sophisticated answers. A discussion might go like this:

"I want ice cream"
"Why?"
"It tastes good"
"What other foods taste good"
"Pizza, hot dogs, and chips"

At this point, I'd ask them which one they like better. If they're smart enough, I'll ask them to rank them. If I do a good job raising my kid to this point, they'll probably just get distracted as I lure them further and further away from the ice cream. If they don't, I'll probably give in and address the issue later. If they throw a tantrum, I might have to discipline.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/9/2012 8:46:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/9/2012 4:47:42 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 2/24/2012 4:37:33 PM, darkkermit wrote:
debating with a parent =/= debating on DDO.

For example, especially if it is a female, stating that item "A" is for sex, and stating the benefits of sex might not be a good idea, even If your arguments are better.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make here, but I'll expand on what I think you're saying to see if I address it.

If I raise my daughter in this way up to the point where she is a teenager and now, she is petitioning me (for some reason) to not intervene in her wish to start having sex, I think that the skills I taught her in critical thinking will help her figure out whether or not this is something she really wants to do. There would have been many petitions prior to this that address the same issues as a teenage girl seeking to become sexually active, and it's probably unlikely that she'll even think of it.

You're really going to allow you're teenager daughter to have sex as long as she can out-beat you in a debate (which by the way, it nearly impossible to figure out. Who will judge who is the winner). Oh, and you're going to openly discuss it too?
Open borders debate:
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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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3/9/2012 10:54:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 11:04:09 PM, Kleptin wrote:
I've been toying around with this concept for a while. I have a personal distaste for the way a lot of children are being raised nowadays. I was never given an actual allowance, nor was I paid for doing chores. I did my chores because I recognized them as a responsibility to the household, and I received money when I legitimately needed something.

I feel that because I am more privileged than my parents are, I am also less likely to pass on good morals and responsibility, and I fear spoiling my children. On the flip side, my parents sacrificed for me such that I would never want for anything, and I know I'll have that same mentality as a parent. If I can provide for their happiness, I should.

I concluded that a good way would be to make my children argue for what they want, in a controlled and organized way.

They will perform chores as I did, with no reward and with the understanding that it is their responsibility as part of the household. They will receive no allowance unless they have proven to me that they require it.

From a very early age, if they want something, I'll ask them "why?" and I'll make them give me a list of reasons until I'm satisfied, then I'll grant their wish. As they grow and their wants become more complex, my requirements will match. If my teenage daughter wants a new pair of boots, I'll require that she explains why she wants the boots, why I would NOT want to get her the boots, why it would be a good idea for me to buy her the boots regardless, and perhaps a bunch of follow-up issues like peer pressure, the importance of fashion, the significance of fitting in socially, etc.

If my kids can explain all of this to me, I'd be willing to buy them whatever they want.

It will also train them to be able to communicate effectively when they grow up, network, make connections, get ahead, etc.

Thoughts?

Read up on developmental psychology. There is a period of time in an infants life where that kind of moral reasoning simply does not work.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/9/2012 11:50:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Never thought of this before. Sounds like it would turn the kid into an arsehole lawyer later on.

I approve.
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Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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3/10/2012 3:59:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/9/2012 8:46:41 PM, darkkermit wrote:
You're really going to allow you're teenager daughter to have sex as long as she can out-beat you in a debate (which by the way, it nearly impossible to figure out. Who will judge who is the winner). Oh, and you're going to openly discuss it too?

I get the feeling that either you didn't read my post, or I am very bad at explaining myself.

I spent my post describing why that situation won't exist and essentially that if that situation did, then the entire system was a failure anyway.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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3/10/2012 4:06:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/9/2012 10:54:32 PM, Wnope wrote:
Read up on developmental psychology. There is a period of time in an infants life where that kind of moral reasoning simply does not work.

First of all, any science regarding children tends to involve a significant amount of guesswork and variation. Secondly, any research involving psychology involves even more of those two things. When you combine them together, you get a field of science in which you have some good, solid concepts backed with well-conducted studies that have very, very poor applicability to real life situations.

That having been said, who's talking about infancy? This is likely going to start at the same time they start asking for things for reasons other than biological. A four year old has the capacity to tell you which things he likes better, and can very likely tell you why. A seven year old can very easily understand consequences of effects. A ten year old is incredibly ignorant but has the same capacity an adult has. There's no legitimate reason for me to begin this before they get to school age anyway, since I'm trying to help them combat peer pressure without my involvement.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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3/11/2012 1:18:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/9/2012 4:52:19 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 2/27/2012 6:12:50 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
When they're quite young, that'd be a tough feat. Considering that they are not likely to have a good reason for wanting a lot of things, and that you'd triumph a lot of the 'debates', they would feel cheated. If you can turn that around, rationally explain the reasoning to them, and not cough up up when they start crying/ give you a puppy eyed look, and are yourself disciplined and don't spend on things you don't really need, I can see it working.

When they're young, it's going to be very light. If they want an ice cream, for example, I would ask them why. I won't expect sophisticated answers. A discussion might go like this:

"I want ice cream"
"Why?"
"It tastes good"
"What other foods taste good"
"Pizza, hot dogs, and chips"

At this point, I'd ask them which one they like better. If they're smart enough, I'll ask them to rank them. If I do a good job raising my kid to this point, they'll probably just get distracted as I lure them further and further away from the ice cream. If they don't, I'll probably give in and address the issue later. If they throw a tantrum, I might have to discipline.

Lolwut?

Will you get them a hotdog, pizza or chips or whatever they rank as 'the best'?

I guess the point under consideration is whether this wouldn't backfire later. This in itself is a pretty well-intentioned plan. However, the obvious consequence of this plan in action is that, there are bound to be a lot of situations- as the children try to go after what they want in every possible way. The way you deal with THEM will shape their reaction to you, or the way they approach you.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/11/2012 3:12:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 3:59:55 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 3/9/2012 8:46:41 PM, darkkermit wrote:
You're really going to allow you're teenager daughter to have sex as long as she can out-beat you in a debate (which by the way, it nearly impossible to figure out. Who will judge who is the winner). Oh, and you're going to openly discuss it too?

I get the feeling that either you didn't read my post, or I am very bad at explaining myself.

I read your post.

I spent my post describing why that situation won't exist and essentially that if that situation did, then the entire system was a failure anyway.

Please explain why the situation won't exist.
Open borders debate:
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