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What Does Marriage Mean to You?

Ren
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3/23/2012 6:04:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm posting this, because I've seen numerous threads on the subject of gay marriage (and several more debates), and there's one primary issue that is at the heart of the disagreement.

What is marriage?

I mean, sure, it's a societal institution, but for what? I mean, I'm sure most of us were brought up assuming that marriage is a religious institution. However, it is clearly something that transcends religion, as it exists across all cultures and religions, even, despite them; accordingly, it is an innate aspect of humanity irreverent if its concepts.

What exactly do we mean by getting married? Why do we get married? Why is it an innate aspect of humanity? What purpose does it serve?

I think these are questions that should first be approached before we really get into whether we should "accept gay marriage."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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3/23/2012 6:33:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The thought of another man boning your girl is naturally unpleasant. As long as people even think along the lines of "my girl", there will be marriage. It's a power thing.

Marriage probably was conceived out of man's natural insecurities. Later justifications for the institution naturally would follow.
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nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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3/23/2012 7:13:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 6:04:54 PM, Ren wrote:
I'm posting this, because I've seen numerous threads on the subject of gay marriage (and several more debates), and there's one primary issue that is at the heart of the disagreement.

What is marriage?

I mean, sure, it's a societal institution, but for what? I mean, I'm sure most of us were brought up assuming that marriage is a religious institution. However, it is clearly something that transcends religion, as it exists across all cultures and religions, even, despite them; accordingly, it is an innate aspect of humanity irreverent if its concepts.

What exactly do we mean by getting married? Why do we get married? Why is it an innate aspect of humanity? What purpose does it serve?

I think these are questions that should first be approached before we really get into whether we should "accept gay marriage."

I forget where I heard this, but I think it sums it up nicely: we get married because we need a witness to our lives. It gives us meaning to be able to share our lives with people.

It also gives us support. It's easier to raise children with help. Marriage (supposedly) ensures monogamy, which ensures for the female that she will get all the resources she needs to take care of her children, and ensures for the male that the resources he's providing are going to his own children.

That's my take on it...
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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3/23/2012 7:17:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 7:13:33 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/23/2012 6:04:54 PM, Ren wrote:
I'm posting this, because I've seen numerous threads on the subject of gay marriage (and several more debates), and there's one primary issue that is at the heart of the disagreement.

What is marriage?

I mean, sure, it's a societal institution, but for what? I mean, I'm sure most of us were brought up assuming that marriage is a religious institution. However, it is clearly something that transcends religion, as it exists across all cultures and religions, even, despite them; accordingly, it is an innate aspect of humanity irreverent if its concepts.

What exactly do we mean by getting married? Why do we get married? Why is it an innate aspect of humanity? What purpose does it serve?

I think these are questions that should first be approached before we really get into whether we should "accept gay marriage."

I forget where I heard this, but I think it sums it up nicely: we get married because we need a witness to our lives. It gives us meaning to be able to share our lives with people.

It also gives us support. It's easier to raise children with help. Marriage (supposedly) ensures monogamy, which ensures for the female that she will get all the resources she needs to take care of her children, and ensures for the male that the resources he's providing are going to his own children.

That's my take on it...

That was a very good secular answer nonentity.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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3/23/2012 7:20:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 7:17:50 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 3/23/2012 7:13:33 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/23/2012 6:04:54 PM, Ren wrote:
I'm posting this, because I've seen numerous threads on the subject of gay marriage (and several more debates), and there's one primary issue that is at the heart of the disagreement.

What is marriage?

I mean, sure, it's a societal institution, but for what? I mean, I'm sure most of us were brought up assuming that marriage is a religious institution. However, it is clearly something that transcends religion, as it exists across all cultures and religions, even, despite them; accordingly, it is an innate aspect of humanity irreverent if its concepts.

What exactly do we mean by getting married? Why do we get married? Why is it an innate aspect of humanity? What purpose does it serve?

I think these are questions that should first be approached before we really get into whether we should "accept gay marriage."

I forget where I heard this, but I think it sums it up nicely: we get married because we need a witness to our lives. It gives us meaning to be able to share our lives with people.

It also gives us support. It's easier to raise children with help. Marriage (supposedly) ensures monogamy, which ensures for the female that she will get all the resources she needs to take care of her children, and ensures for the male that the resources he's providing are going to his own children.

That's my take on it...

That was a very good secular answer nonentity.

Thank you. The second part doesn't really apply to gay couples but the first explanation certainly does.

However, for the second explanation, monogamy reduces the risk of STI.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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3/23/2012 9:18:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 6:33:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The thought of another man boning your girl is naturally unpleasant. As long as people even think along the lines of "my girl", there will be marriage. It's a power thing.

Marriage probably was conceived out of man's natural insecurities. Later justifications for the institution naturally would follow.

What about open marriages? They exist...

...and, this is not to mention the innumerous marriages that survive infidelity... I feel like there's something else; something more. I mean, we've had polygamy, right? So, obviously, ownership isn't all there is to it...
Ren
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3/23/2012 9:23:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 7:13:33 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/23/2012 6:04:54 PM, Ren wrote:
I'm posting this, because I've seen numerous threads on the subject of gay marriage (and several more debates), and there's one primary issue that is at the heart of the disagreement.

What is marriage?

I mean, sure, it's a societal institution, but for what? I mean, I'm sure most of us were brought up assuming that marriage is a religious institution. However, it is clearly something that transcends religion, as it exists across all cultures and religions, even, despite them; accordingly, it is an innate aspect of humanity irreverent if its concepts.

What exactly do we mean by getting married? Why do we get married? Why is it an innate aspect of humanity? What purpose does it serve?

I think these are questions that should first be approached before we really get into whether we should "accept gay marriage."

I forget where I heard this, but I think it sums it up nicely: we get married because we need a witness to our lives. It gives us meaning to be able to share our lives with people.

It also gives us support. It's easier to raise children with help. Marriage (supposedly) ensures monogamy, which ensures for the female that she will get all the resources she needs to take care of her children, and ensures for the male that the resources he's providing are going to his own children.

That's my take on it...

I like where you're going with that.

Perhaps, taking it a step further: perhaps, to best navigate this sordid, shitty world, it requires two perspectives rather than one; and a perspective from someone with whom you have that sort of connection. This would further rationalize why our greatest endeavor -- helping to create a new life -- would be best engaged with such a twosome.

Or, in Socrates' opinion, the whole damned society.

Orgies. Don't knock 'em 'til you try 'em, but don't go in a noob.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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3/23/2012 9:24:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
To me, marriage is a celebration of the deep relationship two people have together. On a larger scale, it is a celebration of the relationships we as humans have been able to develop in a social sense.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Ren
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3/23/2012 9:25:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 6:33:47 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Bondage.
Ask a married person.

You and Johnny seem to agree.

However, I doubt either of you have been married.

I don't know -- I haven't been married, either. But, I've been close enough, I'd say, and with the right approach, it's probably possible. >.>
DetectableNinja
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3/23/2012 9:25:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 9:24:45 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
To me, marriage is a celebration of the deep relationship two people have together. On a larger scale, it is a celebration of the relationships we as humans have been able to develop in a social sense.

It's a cookie cutter answer, I know, but still...
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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3/23/2012 9:26:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 9:24:45 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
To me, marriage is a celebration of the deep relationship two people have together. On a larger scale, it is a celebration of the relationships we as humans have been able to develop in a social sense.

So, marriage is simply something you apply as part of your identity...?
DetectableNinja
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3/23/2012 9:30:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 9:26:26 PM, Ren wrote:
At 3/23/2012 9:24:45 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
To me, marriage is a celebration of the deep relationship two people have together. On a larger scale, it is a celebration of the relationships we as humans have been able to develop in a social sense.

So, marriage is simply something you apply as part of your identity...?

I don't really know. The answer I gave was in the sense of why society recognizes marriages. I don't feel we should have to have these designated things called marriage. I don't believe people should be monogamous nor polygamous--people should be either, at the discretion of every person. I feel like relationships simply exist--just some are romantic or erotic, and others aren't. What I said was more of an observation--a reality.

In the grand sense of humanity, marriage is arbitrary. But societally, I feel it makes sense.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Lickdafoot
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3/23/2012 9:47:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 6:04:54 PM, Ren wrote:
I'm posting this, because I've seen numerous threads on the subject of gay marriage (and several more debates), and there's one primary issue that is at the heart of the disagreement.

What is marriage?

I mean, sure, it's a societal institution, but for what? I mean, I'm sure most of us were brought up assuming that marriage is a religious institution. However, it is clearly something that transcends religion, as it exists across all cultures and religions, even, despite them; accordingly, it is an innate aspect of humanity irreverent if its concepts.

What exactly do we mean by getting married? Why do we get married? Why is it an innate aspect of humanity? What purpose does it serve?

I think these are questions that should first be approached before we really get into whether we should "accept gay marriage."

well. i guess you could answer this by thinking back on the survival of the fittest. if you want to spread your seed, you want to bone a bunch of people, but we hold a higher esteem to those who commit to one another. why? the guy could go hunt and the woman could take care of the children. easier in a pack group than on their own. the lone wolf dies. they crafted a union in order to survive. marriage was made.

i think now, marriage means many different things for many different people. What does it mean to me? it's the same thing as having a best friend. When you find a person who is worthy to be your best friend, you want them to be loyal to you, and you gladly sacrifice other things and people to stick by them because you appreciate them. it's just about sharing love, really. it doesn't matter if you have a ceremony, ring, papers or not. the commitment to the love is the important part.

I think to truly know a person and to accept them for who they are, and for them to do the same to you, is what makes someone feel the most love, and should be the goal of any marriage.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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3/24/2012 1:36:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 6:33:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The thought of another man boning your girl is naturally unpleasant. As long as people even think along the lines of "my girl", there will be marriage. It's a power thing.

Marriage probably was conceived out of man's natural insecurities. Later justifications for the institution naturally would follow.

In large part. This is why marrying a virgin in so many cultures is considered important. You can see a pattern- the more women of a country have access to contraception and paternity tests, the less important virginity at marriage becomes. Ensuring paternity is important.

Women benefit from marriage via the support through pregnancy and help from the man with the unusually long process of readying a human baby to live on it's own. We see this also in animals- the longer the gestation period/infant/childhood- the more time and energy the mate is willing to invest. Humans have a long developmental period- physically and psychologically- thus they require a long time of parental investment. Marriage seems like the cultural outcome of this.

Of course, those are just the beginnings. In modern America, with the significantly greater economic and reproductive freedom for women, we have been afforded the luxury of marriage being considered a romantic endeavor instead of an economic endeavor. We have secured our resources necessary for survival and marriage is able to take on a higher meaning- one of self-actualization. Consequently... it's more of a selfish thing now. What can you do for me? Do you make me happy? Are we happy together? No? Let's get a divorce. Next. Do I make you happy? Do you make me happy? Can we work it out? No? Next. There was a time when marriage was unequivocally "forever"(and it still is in some cultures). However, that was when life itself depended on it.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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3/24/2012 7:32:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 9:45:30 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
A repressive social insitution that has historically been used to treat women as chattel.

Hmmhm. yeah. Proof of this?
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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3/24/2012 7:54:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 7:32:07 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/23/2012 9:45:30 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
A repressive social insitution that has historically been used to treat women as chattel.

Hmmhm. yeah. Proof of this?

Yes.

Married women were not permitted to work. They were treated as the property of their husbands and were not given political rights in any nation until the 20th century. Marriage was, and in many places still is, considered a private affair that the state could not interefere in. This permitted husbands to perpetuate domestic abuse on women without fear of retaliation. The few women who did retaliate were murdered by the state; Great Britain even classified the act of killing one's male domestic partner is self-defense as petty treason. Girls were groomed to become wholly sexual beings because marriage was their sole purpose on life, and they still are forced to undergo the same transformations for society.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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3/24/2012 8:37:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 7:54:11 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/24/2012 7:32:07 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/23/2012 9:45:30 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
A repressive social insitution that has historically been used to treat women as chattel.

Hmmhm. yeah. Proof of this?

Yes.

Married women were not permitted to work. They were treated as the property of their husbands and were not given political rights in any nation until the 20th century. Marriage was, and in many places still is, considered a private affair that the state could not interefere in. This permitted husbands to perpetuate domestic abuse on women without fear of retaliation. The few women who did retaliate were murdered by the state; Great Britain even classified the act of killing one's male domestic partner is self-defense as petty treason. Girls were groomed to become wholly sexual beings because marriage was their sole purpose on life, and they still are forced to undergo the same transformations for society.

And this is why even though I'm a guy I live at this time
In history, in this country. No person whether man or woman should be treated as property. Which is pretty much how the system rolled for a long time.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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3/24/2012 8:38:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 8:37:20 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 3/24/2012 7:54:11 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/24/2012 7:32:07 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/23/2012 9:45:30 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
A repressive social insitution that has historically been used to treat women as chattel.

Hmmhm. yeah. Proof of this?

Yes.

Married women were not permitted to work. They were treated as the property of their husbands and were not given political rights in any nation until the 20th century. Marriage was, and in many places still is, considered a private affair that the state could not interefere in. This permitted husbands to perpetuate domestic abuse on women without fear of retaliation. The few women who did retaliate were murdered by the state; Great Britain even classified the act of killing one's male domestic partner is self-defense as petty treason. Girls were groomed to become wholly sexual beings because marriage was their sole purpose on life, and they still are forced to undergo the same transformations for society.

And this is why even though I'm a guy I live at this time
In history, in this country. No person whether man or woman should be treated as property. Which is pretty much how the system rolled for a long time.

I'm glad I live*(typo)
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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3/24/2012 8:44:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 9:47:12 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/23/2012 6:04:54 PM, Ren wrote:
I'm posting this, because I've seen numerous threads on the subject of gay marriage (and several more debates), and there's one primary issue that is at the heart of the disagreement.

What is marriage?

I mean, sure, it's a societal institution, but for what? I mean, I'm sure most of us were brought up assuming that marriage is a religious institution. However, it is clearly something that transcends religion, as it exists across all cultures and religions, even, despite them; accordingly, it is an innate aspect of humanity irreverent if its concepts.

What exactly do we mean by getting married? Why do we get married? Why is it an innate aspect of humanity? What purpose does it serve?

I think these are questions that should first be approached before we really get into whether we should "accept gay marriage."

well. i guess you could answer this by thinking back on the survival of the fittest. if you want to spread your seed, you want to bone a bunch of people, but we hold a higher esteem to those who commit to one another. why? the guy could go hunt and the woman could take care of the children. easier in a pack group than on their own. the lone wolf dies. they crafted a union in order to survive. marriage was made.

i think now, marriage means many different things for many different people. What does it mean to me? it's the same thing as having a best friend. When you find a person who is worthy to be your best friend, you want them to be loyal to you, and you gladly sacrifice other things and people to stick by them because you appreciate them. it's just about sharing love, really. it doesn't matter if you have a ceremony, ring, papers or not. the commitment to the love is the important part.

I think to truly know a person and to accept them for who they are, and for them to do the same to you, is what makes someone feel the most love, and should be the goal of any marriage.

+1 Great answer
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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3/24/2012 8:44:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 7:54:11 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/24/2012 7:32:07 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/23/2012 9:45:30 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
A repressive social insitution that has historically been used to treat women as chattel.

Hmmhm. yeah. Proof of this?

Yes.

Married women were not permitted to work. They were treated as the property of their husbands and were not given political rights in any nation until the 20th century. Marriage was, and in many places still is, considered a private affair that the state could not interefere in. This permitted husbands to perpetuate domestic abuse on women without fear of retaliation. The few women who did retaliate were murdered by the state; Great Britain even classified the act of killing one's male domestic partner is self-defense as petty treason. Girls were groomed to become wholly sexual beings because marriage was their sole purpose on life, and they still are forced to undergo the same transformations for society.

Well, perhaps you could say that, and your evidence is verifiable; however, I submit to you that women actually proliferate the marriage institution. This isn't to say that they disenfranchise themselves -- in fact, I'd say those actions were immoral, and thus, abusive. They bastardized a sacred covenant.

If you think about it, marriage is largely emotional. On the other hand, it's largely emotional for the people holding it, rather than those who attend as guests. Moreover, those who held the marriage are at the center of attention, and are treated, inexplicably, like royalty by everyone around them. In this day and age, we remain starkly traditional, throwing parties for men and women alike, feeling inclined to travel hundreds of miles and spend hundreds of dollars (if we have it) to witness such events.

I mean, wouldn't you say marriage is so much more than just, "oh, taxes and childbearing"?

This is all in addition to the fact that it is literally defined at the time of occurrence. People are required (and invariably cooperate) with the institution that one must construct vows. These vows essentially indicate what the marriage means, why you're getting married, and the parameters of the marriage.

You bound yourself to another person for the rest of your life. Literally. That is what it is supposed to be. It is so religious and spiritual, because people used to recognize how deeply emotional and spiritual it really is, in addition to being physical and pragmatic. This is why people begin acting like one another, looking like one another, and synchronizing so well, withstanding years of marriage -- I mean, damn, I can't stand two straight weeks of most people.

The fact that most have discarded this aspect of marriage is also what has contributed largely to its frequent dissolution (and confusion as to what it even is).
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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3/24/2012 8:55:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 1:36:01 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/23/2012 6:33:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The thought of another man boning your girl is naturally unpleasant. As long as people even think along the lines of "my girl", there will be marriage. It's a power thing.

Marriage probably was conceived out of man's natural insecurities. Later justifications for the institution naturally would follow.

In large part. This is why marrying a virgin in so many cultures is considered important. You can see a pattern- the more women of a country have access to contraception and paternity tests, the less important virginity at marriage becomes. Ensuring paternity is important.

Of course; that' just instinctive. We have a genetic inclination to pass on our genes.

Women benefit from marriage via the support through pregnancy and help from the man with the unusually long process of readying a human baby to live on it's own. We see this also in animals- the longer the gestation period/infant/childhood- the more time and energy the mate is willing to invest. Humans have a long developmental period- physically and psychologically- thus they require a long time of parental investment. Marriage seems like the cultural outcome of this.

Of course, those are just the beginnings. In modern America, with the significantly greater economic and reproductive freedom for women, we have been afforded the luxury of marriage being considered a romantic endeavor instead of an economic endeavor. We have secured our resources necessary for survival and marriage is able to take on a higher meaning- one of self-actualization. Consequently... it's more of a selfish thing now. What can you do for me? Do you make me happy? Are we happy together? No? Let's get a divorce. Next. Do I make you happy? Do you make me happy? Can we work it out? No? Next. There was a time when marriage was unequivocally "forever"(and it still is in some cultures). However, that was when life itself depended on it.

I hate to say this, but this is 100% sex-centric. It's as though you consider all females on the planet like female angler fishes, ruling everything around and it determining precisely when a male mate can latch onto her due to her irresistibility, so she can release acid from her skin, causing him to melt somewhat and physically merge with her. Then, she slowly absorbs him, feeding off of his nutrients until she can access his testicles, which she takes for her own and uses as she sees fit to produce offspring. She then continues to absorb the male until he is complete absorbed and the offspring have completely developed, at which point, she releases them and goes on to be a monster.

I've met women like that, but they're definitely (thank the mighty Lord) a minority among all women. In most cases, men actually have a say, and make their own decisions regarding whether he'll stay with the woman.
Ren
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3/24/2012 9:01:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 9:47:12 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/23/2012 6:04:54 PM, Ren wrote:
I'm posting this, because I've seen numerous threads on the subject of gay marriage (and several more debates), and there's one primary issue that is at the heart of the disagreement.

What is marriage?

I mean, sure, it's a societal institution, but for what? I mean, I'm sure most of us were brought up assuming that marriage is a religious institution. However, it is clearly something that transcends religion, as it exists across all cultures and religions, even, despite them; accordingly, it is an innate aspect of humanity irreverent if its concepts.

What exactly do we mean by getting married? Why do we get married? Why is it an innate aspect of humanity? What purpose does it serve?

I think these are questions that should first be approached before we really get into whether we should "accept gay marriage."

well. i guess you could answer this by thinking back on the survival of the fittest. if you want to spread your seed, you want to bone a bunch of people, but we hold a higher esteem to those who commit to one another. why? the guy could go hunt and the woman could take care of the children. easier in a pack group than on their own. the lone wolf dies. they crafted a union in order to survive. marriage was made.

i think now, marriage means many different things for many different people. What does it mean to me? it's the same thing as having a best friend. When you find a person who is worthy to be your best friend, you want them to be loyal to you, and you gladly sacrifice other things and people to stick by them because you appreciate them. it's just about sharing love, really. it doesn't matter if you have a ceremony, ring, papers or not. the commitment to the love is the important part.

I think to truly know a person and to accept them for who they are, and for them to do the same to you, is what makes someone feel the most love, and should be the goal of any marriage.

Then, what's the point of all that, anyway?

Why have we decided to make such a big deal out of it? When we tell people that we're dating, or even that we're engaged, generally speaking, they just say "Oh, really? Bully for you!" And move on with their day, tra la la. But, if you're getting married, ugh -- fugget it. It's a whole different story. Everyone's family gets involved, there's a katrillion people all in your face, and the woman goes nuts preparing this perfect ceremony for herself.

Lol... I mean, and that doesn't mean a thing? I'd say it's at least evidentiary of what marriage really is, which we've clearly lost, as we can no longer conclusively define it.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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3/24/2012 10:46:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It doesn't matter what society thinks a marriage is or isn't. This fictitious notion of marriage being an "institution" is nonsense. There is no institution of marriage. No one gets married for the benefit of their respective society, rather they get married as individuals for their own benefit.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Buddamoose
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3/24/2012 10:54:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 10:46:15 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
It doesn't matter what society thinks a marriage is or isn't. This fictitious notion of marriage being an "institution" is nonsense. There is no institution of marriage. No one gets married for the benefit of their respective society, rather they get married as individuals for their own benefit.

+1
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Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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3/24/2012 12:22:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 8:55:25 AM, Ren wrote:
At 3/24/2012 1:36:01 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/23/2012 6:33:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The thought of another man boning your girl is naturally unpleasant. As long as people even think along the lines of "my girl", there will be marriage. It's a power thing.

Marriage probably was conceived out of man's natural insecurities. Later justifications for the institution naturally would follow.

In large part. This is why marrying a virgin in so many cultures is considered important. You can see a pattern- the more women of a country have access to contraception and paternity tests, the less important virginity at marriage becomes. Ensuring paternity is important.

Of course; that' just instinctive. We have a genetic inclination to pass on our genes.

Women benefit from marriage via the support through pregnancy and help from the man with the unusually long process of readying a human baby to live on it's own. We see this also in animals- the longer the gestation period/infant/childhood- the more time and energy the mate is willing to invest. Humans have a long developmental period- physically and psychologically- thus they require a long time of parental investment. Marriage seems like the cultural outcome of this.

Of course, those are just the beginnings. In modern America, with the significantly greater economic and reproductive freedom for women, we have been afforded the luxury of marriage being considered a romantic endeavor instead of an economic endeavor. We have secured our resources necessary for survival and marriage is able to take on a higher meaning- one of self-actualization. Consequently... it's more of a selfish thing now. What can you do for me? Do you make me happy? Are we happy together? No? Let's get a divorce. Next. Do I make you happy? Do you make me happy? Can we work it out? No? Next. There was a time when marriage was unequivocally "forever"(and it still is in some cultures). However, that was when life itself depended on it.

I hate to say this, but this is 100% sex-centric.
Indeed.
It's as though you consider all females on the planet like female angler fishes, ruling everything around and it determining precisely when a male mate can latch onto her due to her irresistibility, so she can release acid from her skin, causing him to melt somewhat and physically merge with her. Then, she slowly absorbs him, feeding off of his nutrients until she can access his testicles, which she takes for her own and uses as she sees fit to produce offspring. She then continues to absorb the male until he is complete absorbed and the offspring have completely developed, at which point, she releases them and goes on to be a monster.

Humans are not like angler fishes at all.
I've met women like that, but they're definitely (thank the mighty Lord) a minority among all women. In most cases, men actually have a say, and make their own decisions regarding whether he'll stay with the woman.

Both sexes have agency in marriage unless society deems that marriage is compulsory (which it was until not long ago at all-and many societies still do), in which case, the female is by far the loser more often- being smaller in stature, domestic violence being considered a "personal" issue up until recently, etc.- this all benefits males. Divorce being only available for men in cases of female infidelity until recently- this also benefits males. Marital rape wasn't considered a crime until the late 20th century- this benefits males and treats women as property. The fact that if the husband dies, the property goes to the oldest son, not the wife, this also benefits males. Women were not allowed to own property until recently. The list goes on and on and on- as royalpaladin pointed out. In fact, in some countries still today, if a man rapes a woman, he can avoid jail sentencing by marrying his rape victim. In Kazakhstan (sp?) men can literally kidnap a woman, rape her, and marry her- and that is acceptable. It happens to at least 1/3rd of the women who live there. It is not acceptable for a man and woman to marry simply because they want to.

The thought that marriage has been the female somehow roping in the male for some sort of imprisonment is completely a$$-backwards. Women were, and sometimes still are, considered walking wombs, property, a tool for the males to pass on their genes, name, resources, legacy, etc.

I'm talking about where marriage came from here- Why the necessity for monogamy was there in the first place. In America, it was an economic arrangement until the Victorian era, when things began to change. Today, we have changed the meaning of marriage and consider it super romantic, sacred, blah blah blah, religion got tied in and further convoluted it, etc. and then we act as if it were that way all along. It wasn't-not in the slightest. 1st- Partnership was necessary for survival. 2nd- Still necessary for survival but also necessary for economic reasons in society- FAMILY was the primary institution that kept you alive. Now, partnership is not necessary- it is a luxury. We have the luxury of looking at marriage as a romantic endeavor of self-actualization. That is not the rule. It is a luxury which is by far more often successful for those with a relatively stress-free life- the wealthy and educated. If you don't believe me, look at divorce statistics. The poor and uneducated are far more likely to marry young and to divorce.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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3/24/2012 12:32:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Basically, the core of what I'm saying is- you are asking a question with a condition.

You're asking "What does marriage mean to you- now that we have the luxury of considering marriage an endeavor of self-actualization?"

Many people who have answered your question took the self-actualization aspect for granted and have given lovely, romantic answers. Generally our society does view it that way. In my personal life, I treat it in that way. But I still like to look at it in the big picture. Maybe I will make marriage my own someday, but for now, it's just like one of those holidays we've carried on celebrating though it doesn't really hold the same meaning it did years and years ago- Halloween for instance. We continue to do it out of habit, give it new meaning, etc. but meh. And actually, as the years go by, more and more Americans think that marriage is not necessary- and they should because it isn't. We don't need it like we used to at all.

And if you're wondering, yes, my boyfriend does resent me for my annoyingly logical view of marriage, monogamy, and partnership :D
He met me believing that "the one" exists for everyone. ha.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
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3/24/2012 1:12:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 9:01:14 AM, Ren wrote:

Then, what's the point of all that, anyway?

Why have we decided to make such a big deal out of it? When we tell people that we're dating, or even that we're engaged, generally speaking, they just say "Oh, really? Bully for you!" And move on with their day, tra la la. But, if you're getting married, ugh -- fugget it. It's a whole different story. Everyone's family gets involved, there's a katrillion people all in your face, and the woman goes nuts preparing this perfect ceremony for herself.

Lol... I mean, and that doesn't mean a thing? I'd say it's at least evidentiary of what marriage really is, which we've clearly lost, as we can no longer conclusively define it.

Nah, I think that the ceremony that we have today is more evident of how we have lost the meaning, rather than a place to search for the meaning.

The huge ceremony, the big show of how much money you put into your wedding, how many people attend, how gorgeous the wedding dress, blah blah, is materialistic b*llshit selfish desires that seep into our relationships and crush marriages. It's more about the show than the meaning behind it. And that is very indicative of how the average person treats a marriage now.

The ceremony does hold some significance. It's about bringing the two people together as a union in front of their other loved ones. The acceptance of these two people merging to one.

The most important part of the wedding is the vows and the family. In the bible, the ceremony mainly involved the moving of the woman from the families house to the husbands house. I think this is indicative of their times. Family was important and was at the center of the union.

You make vows to someone to express the ways in which you will devote yourself to their life. You do it in front of other people to solidify it. This is at the core of marriage. It is about taking our greatest gift in this world, love, and making it a priority towards your expression with another.

Societies take on marriage is misconstrued because society is f*cked up.
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