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Effectivley reducing homelessness

sadolite
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3/26/2012 10:42:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Lets be clear, blunt,direct and forward above all else. This subject can not be sugar coated with excuses sob stories and politics. Homelessness just like super success is a revolving door. People go through both. The first order of business to reducing homelessness is to make it against the law to sleep on the streets. This is a no brainer. The second order of business is to set up work camps and have the homeless that are physically able perform menial labor such as pick trash from the streets, cover graffiti and the like. Third they live in the camp, pay no rent or board and are paid a wage for their work. The govt shall hold all of their wages until such time they can put a security deposit on a place to live and buy the bare necessities. The govt shall make available a list of places of possible employment and the homeless people will submit applications for employment. Upon acceptance of employment the homeless person has to options they can go to work or they can not go to work and live on what they earned until the money runs out. If they choose the later they can start all over again. But they will not be allowed under any circumstances to sleep on the streets. The revolving door is the only thing that will effectively reduce homelessness. There is no compassion in enabling someone to sleep on the streets by giving them money to buy food, drugs and alcohol. The idea behind this is to make being homeless as uncomfortable and freedom restricting as possible. Homeless people must choose between the two options. As far as those who are unable to work. They can live in the camp or figure out something else. The ultimate responsibility lies on the individual. You can only do so much and when it comes to that you can only offer the bear minimum.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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3/26/2012 10:45:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Interesting idea...What will the government do to those that refuse either option? Wont it be expensive for the government to run these camps and keep track of all these homeless and make sure these camps aren't just a slum village?
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OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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3/27/2012 12:30:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I like the whole "Make it not acceptable to be homeless, make it hard to be homeless" thing, but not so sure about the rest.
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FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/27/2012 1:45:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The first order of business to reducing homelessness is to make it against the law to sleep on the streets. This is a no brainer...
The first order of business to reducing homelessness is to make it against the law to sleep on the streets...
make it against the law to sleep on the streets...
sleep on the streets...
against the law...
against...
No brainer...
brain...

...What?
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fnord
Zaradi
Posts: 14,125
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3/27/2012 1:49:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 1:45:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
The first order of business to reducing homelessness is to make it against the law to sleep on the streets. This is a no brainer...
The first order of business to reducing homelessness is to make it against the law to sleep on the streets...
make it against the law to sleep on the streets...
sleep on the streets...
against the law...
against...
No brainer...
brain...

...What?

I believe you were talking about how under your government, rights to sleep wherever and whenever one wanted would be massively restricted.
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/27/2012 2:38:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 12:14:38 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Is this a satire? For someone who claims to be a capitalist this sure sounds like a communist solution.

It's more of a fascist solution. A communist, I'd think, would offer the camps and yet not go after the proletarian who sleeps on the street instead.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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3/27/2012 3:19:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 1:45:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
The first order of business to reducing homelessness is to make it against the law to sleep on the streets. This is a no brainer...
The first order of business to reducing homelessness is to make it against the law to sleep on the streets...
make it against the law to sleep on the streets...
sleep on the streets...
against the law...
against...
No brainer...
brain...

...What?

FREEDO, your missing the point. We should just get rid of streets.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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3/27/2012 7:51:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://www.debate.org...

I believe we should use prison labor to produce goods (cheap food, clothes, soap, etc . . . etc . . .) which could then be sold in government owned store in which we employ those who are on welfare so they can get the @#$% off of welfare as well as use some of that money to buy old and busted homes and put homeless people in them and make them work in our store to work it off (at their own free will for if they don't work they don't get a house or the money they would receive from the store) we could also build cheap (but well equipped) hospitals with this money and use people who have just gotten out of college and are entering in the medical field to run these places so they can be employed upon exiting the medical schools they went to (and this would help their resume so they could go to a real hospital to work). Some of this money could be used to build schools (and pay for the staff) and could also be used to fund scholarships. Does this seem like a good idea?

Basically a lesser version of my older idea.
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: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
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: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/27/2012 10:40:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 2:38:28 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 3/27/2012 12:14:38 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Is this a satire? For someone who claims to be a capitalist this sure sounds like a communist solution.

It's more of a fascist solution. A communist, I'd think, would offer the camps and yet not go after the proletarian who sleeps on the street instead.

In a communist nation, people are forced to work for the "greater good". However, as you're well aware, people aren't going to intrinsically do that. Communist societies don't reward productive work with money so their only solution is to punish the lazy and those that don't work, even kill them.

This is not so much different from sadolite's "solution". While these people are volunteering to become homeless, sadolite would rather force people to do productive work,. you know for the "greater good".
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PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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3/27/2012 12:45:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 12:14:38 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Is this a satire? For someone who claims to be a capitalist this sure sounds like a communist solution.:

I think the ulterior motive is to prove a point. I don't know how many undercover reports on panhandling I've seen, but suffice it to say it's extremely lucrative if you do it in the right locations.

Right off of the freeway, two hours of panhandling during rush hour brings to you anywhere between 3-5,000 stopped cars in proximity of you. If even 1-10 cars gives in to the social pressure, at an average of .60 cents per car, you do the math. That's a hell of a paycheck for two hours of standing around begging.

So he's saying take them, offer them showers, food, and an opportunity to work for an honest dollar. Will they do it? I'm willing to bet that the majority would not take it. Panhandling is just too lucrative not to. Until people stop feeling sorry for them, and therefore stop enabling that behavior, this plan wouldn't work.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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3/27/2012 12:46:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 2:38:28 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 3/27/2012 12:14:38 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Is this a satire? For someone who claims to be a capitalist this sure sounds like a communist solution.

It's more of a fascist solution. A communist, I'd think, would offer the camps and yet not go after the proletarian who sleeps on the street instead.:

LOL, good point... After all, the goal for communists is take make everyone equally miserable ;)
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Lickdafoot
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3/27/2012 12:51:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 10:42:25 PM, sadolite wrote:
Lets be clear, blunt,direct and forward above all else. This subject can not be sugar coated with excuses sob stories and politics. Homelessness just like super success is a revolving door. People go through both. The first order of business to reducing homelessness is to make it against the law to sleep on the streets. This is a no brainer.

Then you will just have a bunch of homeless people sleeping in the woods. O.o
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sadolite
Posts: 8,837
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3/27/2012 6:50:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
OK now, All of you who have given your opinions on my idea good or bad. You will now post an alternative idea. I said in the OP that politics will be left out of this. So all of you who are comparing it to communism and fascism, you need not post anything as you are worthless as a possible source of alternative ideas. As you can only criticize ideas and useless for coming up with ideas. So If you who are truly interested in the problem, post your ideas or make modifications to mine. Maybe we can come to some "REAL"solution that will actually help the homeless instead of political ideologue lip service which we have now, while homeless people run amuck in our streets.

This is called dialog. That's when you don't use political BS but rather come up with ideas. Ideas that work almost always sound mean on paper, virtually all ideas that sound happy and shiny and fair on paper are usually complete and utter failures when put into practice and help no one or make the problem ten times worse.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/27/2012 6:58:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 12:51:54 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/26/2012 10:42:25 PM, sadolite wrote:
Lets be clear, blunt,direct and forward above all else. This subject can not be sugar coated with excuses sob stories and politics. Homelessness just like super success is a revolving door. People go through both. The first order of business to reducing homelessness is to make it against the law to sleep on the streets. This is a no brainer.

Then you will just have a bunch of homeless people sleeping in the woods. O.o

I like this proposal. I want to sleep in the woods. And hunt. The most dangerous game... HONEY BADGERS! Or land sharks! Or the ghosts of dead greek philosophers...
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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3/27/2012 7:19:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 6:50:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
OK now, All of you who have given your opinions on my idea good or bad. You will now post an alternative idea. I said in the OP that politics will be left out of this. So all of you who are comparing it to communism and fascism, you need not post anything as you are worthless as a possible source of alternative ideas. As you can only criticize ideas and useless for coming up with ideas. So If you who are truly interested in the problem, post your ideas or make modifications to mine. Maybe we can come to some "REAL"solution that will actually help the homeless instead of political ideologue lip service which we have now, while homeless people run amuck in our streets.

This is called dialog. That's when you don't use political BS but rather come up with ideas. Ideas that work almost always sound mean on paper, virtually all ideas that sound happy and shiny and fair on paper are usually complete and utter failures when put into practice and help no one or make the problem ten times worse.

Create jobs. Literally.

But you don't need to create a camp and force people to live in them. Homeless shelters exist- many choose not to sleep there for their own safety or physical health. Forcing a bunch of poor, hungry, unhealthy (and most likely not well-educated) people -many of whom may be convicts and drug addicts- to live in one crowded space together is irresponsible. It would only create more crime, unrest, disease, and feelings of powerlessness.

Your whole spiel takes for granted the premise that either all homeless people desire a home or that, if they don't, they should desire a home and the government has the right to coerce them into that lifestyle.

How is an internment camp for homeless people better than how things already are? If that is an acceptable solution for the problem, why don't we just rally up all social deviants and put them into little government work camps until they straighten up? Why don't we get all the punks and teach them how to dress and speak?
http://www.guardian.co.uk...
They are "running amuck" in the streets doing generally distasteful things which the general public would never think to do. Why don't we force them to bend to the majorities will as well? Why stop at homelessness?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
sadolite
Posts: 8,837
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3/27/2012 7:33:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 7:19:55 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/27/2012 6:50:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
OK now, All of you who have given your opinions on my idea good or bad. You will now post an alternative idea. I said in the OP that politics will be left out of this. So all of you who are comparing it to communism and fascism, you need not post anything as you are worthless as a possible source of alternative ideas. As you can only criticize ideas and useless for coming up with ideas. So If you who are truly interested in the problem, post your ideas or make modifications to mine. Maybe we can come to some "REAL"solution that will actually help the homeless instead of political ideologue lip service which we have now, while homeless people run amuck in our streets.

This is called dialog. That's when you don't use political BS but rather come up with ideas. Ideas that work almost always sound mean on paper, virtually all ideas that sound happy and shiny and fair on paper are usually complete and utter failures when put into practice and help no one or make the problem ten times worse.

Create jobs. Literally.

But you don't need to create a camp and force people to live in them. Homeless shelters exist- many choose not to sleep there for their own safety or physical health. Forcing a bunch of poor, hungry, unhealthy (and most likely not well-educated) people -many of whom may be convicts and drug addicts- to live in one crowded space together is irresponsible. It would only create more crime, unrest, disease, and feelings of powerlessness.

Your whole spiel takes for granted the premise that either all homeless people desire a home or that, if they don't, they should desire a home and the government has the right to coerce them into that lifestyle.

How is an internment camp for homeless people better than how things already are? If that is an acceptable solution for the problem, why don't we just rally up all social deviants and put them into little government work camps until they straighten up? Why don't we get all the punks and teach them how to dress and speak?
http://www.guardian.co.uk...
They are "running amuck" in the streets doing generally distasteful things which the general public would never think to do. Why don't we force them to bend to the majorities will as well? Why stop at homelessness?

All right we have create jobs. The camps will have security and those who commit crime will go to jail and be seperated from those who truly don't want to be homeless. Criminals belong in jail so put them in tents in the middle of no where like they do AZ. We can feed them baloney sandwiches and let them sit on their butts all day. Incorageable people need to be treated mercelesly. I know it sounds mean. What is the alternative to someone who is just going to say FUK you to everything.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Chthonian
Posts: 247
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3/27/2012 7:34:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 10:42:25 PM, sadolite wrote:
Lets be clear, blunt,direct and forward above all else. This subject can not be sugar coated with excuses sob stories and politics. Homelessness just like super success is a revolving door. People go through both. The first order of business to reducing homelessness is to make it against the law to sleep on the streets. This is a no brainer. The second order of business is to set up work camps and have the homeless that are physically able perform menial labor such as pick trash from the streets, cover graffiti and the like. Third they live in the camp, pay no rent or board and are paid a wage for their work. The govt shall hold all of their wages until such time they can put a security deposit on a place to live and buy the bare necessities. The govt shall make available a list of places of possible employment and the homeless people will submit applications for employment. Upon acceptance of employment the homeless person has to options they can go to work or they can not go to work and live on what they earned until the money runs out. If they choose the later they can start all over again. But they will not be allowed under any circumstances to sleep on the streets. The revolving door is the only thing that will effectively reduce homelessness. There is no compassion in enabling someone to sleep on the streets by giving them money to buy food, drugs and alcohol. The idea behind this is to make being homeless as uncomfortable and freedom restricting as possible. Homeless people must choose between the two options. As far as those who are unable to work. They can live in the camp or figure out something else. The ultimate responsibility lies on the individual. You can only do so much and when it comes to that you can only offer the bear minimum.

Very interesting thread, sadolite.

In my opinion, your solution to reducing homelessness seems to presuppose the cause: lack of employment. But there are numerous complex root causes for why people become homeless that aren't necessarily related to lack of employment. Also, it is important to remember that the homeless aren't all the stereotypical winos panhandling on the street corner; the homeless include single mothers with children as well as mentally-ill or physically disabled individuals.

Having said that, I think your idea about setting up a work program makes sense. I am not so sure about the work camps though--I can't tell if you are suggesting mandatory detention. Also, the government would have to set up large security details to ensure worker safety. All in all, your solution sound expensive and not politically tenable.

I think the best way to effectively reduce homelessness is to make housing and college education more affordable, and raise the hourly minimum wage.
sadolite
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3/27/2012 7:39:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 7:33:55 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/27/2012 7:19:55 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/27/2012 6:50:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
OK now, All of you who have given your opinions on my idea good or bad. You will now post an alternative idea. I said in the OP that politics will be left out of this. So all of you who are comparing it to communism and fascism, you need not post anything as you are worthless as a possible source of alternative ideas. As you can only criticize ideas and useless for coming up with ideas. So If you who are truly interested in the problem, post your ideas or make modifications to mine. Maybe we can come to some "REAL"solution that will actually help the homeless instead of political ideologue lip service which we have now, while homeless people run amuck in our streets.

This is called dialog. That's when you don't use political BS but rather come up with ideas. Ideas that work almost always sound mean on paper, virtually all ideas that sound happy and shiny and fair on paper are usually complete and utter failures when put into practice and help no one or make the problem ten times worse.

Create jobs. Literally.

But you don't need to create a camp and force people to live in them. Homeless shelters exist- many choose not to sleep there for their own safety or physical health. Forcing a bunch of poor, hungry, unhealthy (and most likely not well-educated) people -many of whom may be convicts and drug addicts- to live in one crowded space together is irresponsible. It would only create more crime, unrest, disease, and feelings of powerlessness.

Your whole spiel takes for granted the premise that either all homeless people desire a home or that, if they don't, they should desire a home and the government has the right to coerce them into that lifestyle.

How is an internment camp for homeless people better than how things already are? If that is an acceptable solution for the problem, why don't we just rally up all social deviants and put them into little government work camps until they straighten up? Why don't we get all the punks and teach them how to dress and speak?
http://www.guardian.co.uk...
They are "running amuck" in the streets doing generally distasteful things which the general public would never think to do. Why don't we force them to bend to the majorities will as well? Why stop at homelessness?

All right we have create jobs. The camps will have security and those who commit crime will go to jail and be seperated from those who truly don't want to be homeless. Criminals belong in jail so put them in tents in the middle of no where like they do AZ. We can feed them baloney sandwiches and let them sit on their butts all day. Incorageable people need to be treated mercelesly. I know it sounds mean. What is the alternative to someone who is just going to say FUK you to everything.

Now lets focus on your ideas with dealing with people who absolutely refuse to do anything or comply with anything. My solution is to treat them like they behave, like animals. What is your solution?
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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3/27/2012 7:52:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 7:39:27 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/27/2012 7:33:55 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/27/2012 7:19:55 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/27/2012 6:50:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
OK now, All of you who have given your opinions on my idea good or bad. You will now post an alternative idea. I said in the OP that politics will be left out of this. So all of you who are comparing it to communism and fascism, you need not post anything as you are worthless as a possible source of alternative ideas. As you can only criticize ideas and useless for coming up with ideas. So If you who are truly interested in the problem, post your ideas or make modifications to mine. Maybe we can come to some "REAL"solution that will actually help the homeless instead of political ideologue lip service which we have now, while homeless people run amuck in our streets.

This is called dialog. That's when you don't use political BS but rather come up with ideas. Ideas that work almost always sound mean on paper, virtually all ideas that sound happy and shiny and fair on paper are usually complete and utter failures when put into practice and help no one or make the problem ten times worse.

Create jobs. Literally.

But you don't need to create a camp and force people to live in them. Homeless shelters exist- many choose not to sleep there for their own safety or physical health. Forcing a bunch of poor, hungry, unhealthy (and most likely not well-educated) people -many of whom may be convicts and drug addicts- to live in one crowded space together is irresponsible. It would only create more crime, unrest, disease, and feelings of powerlessness.

Your whole spiel takes for granted the premise that either all homeless people desire a home or that, if they don't, they should desire a home and the government has the right to coerce them into that lifestyle.

How is an internment camp for homeless people better than how things already are? If that is an acceptable solution for the problem, why don't we just rally up all social deviants and put them into little government work camps until they straighten up? Why don't we get all the punks and teach them how to dress and speak?
http://www.guardian.co.uk...
They are "running amuck" in the streets doing generally distasteful things which the general public would never think to do. Why don't we force them to bend to the majorities will as well? Why stop at homelessness?

All right we have create jobs. The camps will have security and those who commit crime will go to jail and be seperated from those who truly don't want to be homeless. Criminals belong in jail so put them in tents in the middle of no where like they do AZ. We can feed them baloney sandwiches and let them sit on their butts all day. Incorageable people need to be treated mercelesly. I know it sounds mean. What is the alternative to someone who is just going to say FUK you to everything.

Now lets focus on your ideas with dealing with people who absolutely refuse to do anything or comply with anything. My solution is to treat them like they behave, like animals. What is your solution?

Well, you could create a cesspool of crime and disease but attempt to stop that by simply putting all the inevitable criminals into prisons- but that doesn't really "solve" the problem per se. It's just a band aid. Then you're just putting the people into a cycle of recidivism instead of a cycle of simple poverty and homelessness. This still costs tax money (probably a lot more than the state of homelessness as it is presently) and may even make for more dangerous criminals once they are released- left to stew in their powerlessness and rage and trade criminal tricks of the trade with other experienced prison-dwellers, the homeless will grow from simple poorfolk to savvy criminals.

If they refuse to comply with the new rules about homelessness, what should we do? Join them. If the government acts like a fascistic entity, it should be treated as one. Sic semper tyrannis.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
sadolite
Posts: 8,837
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3/27/2012 8:04:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 7:34:31 PM, Chthonian wrote:
At 3/26/2012 10:42:25 PM, sadolite wrote:
Lets be clear, blunt,direct and forward above all else. This subject can not be sugar coated with excuses sob stories and politics. Homelessness just like super success is a revolving door. People go through both. The first order of business to reducing homelessness is to make it against the law to sleep on the streets. This is a no brainer. The second order of business is to set up work camps and have the homeless that are physically able perform menial labor such as pick trash from the streets, cover graffiti and the like. Third they live in the camp, pay no rent or board and are paid a wage for their work. The govt shall hold all of their wages until such time they can put a security deposit on a place to live and buy the bare necessities. The govt shall make available a list of places of possible employment and the homeless people will submit applications for employment. Upon acceptance of employment the homeless person has to options they can go to work or they can not go to work and live on what they earned until the money runs out. If they choose the later they can start all over again. But they will not be allowed under any circumstances to sleep on the streets. The revolving door is the only thing that will effectively reduce homelessness. There is no compassion in enabling someone to sleep on the streets by giving them money to buy food, drugs and alcohol. The idea behind this is to make being homeless as uncomfortable and freedom restricting as possible. Homeless people must choose between the two options. As far as those who are unable to work. They can live in the camp or figure out something else. The ultimate responsibility lies on the individual. You can only do so much and when it comes to that you can only offer the bear minimum.

Very interesting thread, sadolite.

In my opinion, your solution to reducing homelessness seems to presuppose the cause: lack of employment. But there are numerous complex root causes for why people become homeless that aren't necessarily related to lack of employment. Also, it is important to remember that the homeless aren't all the stereotypical winos panhandling on the street corner; the homeless include single mothers with children as well as mentally-ill or physically disabled individuals.

Having said that, I think your idea about setting up a work program makes sense. I am not so sure about the work camps though--I can't tell if you are suggesting mandatory detention. Also, the government would have to set up large security details to ensure worker safety. All in all, your solution sound expensive and not politically tenable.

I think the best way to effectively reduce homelessness is to make housing and college education more affordable, and raise the hourly minimum wage.

HMM. sounds pretty happy and shiny, but OK. We've done the affordable housing thing and look what happened to all that affordable housing across the country. We can try that all over again if you want though. Just exactly how high can the minimum wage ultimately be? Is the ski the limit ? if not why do we waste time raising it a little bit at a time just move it all the way to it's maximum right now. College, that is something you must earn not handed to you.

Detention is only mandatory if you plan on sleeping in the streets. And no I can't stop people from leaving the city and living in the woods. There is no perfect solution to anything. My plan is to reduce homelessness not eliminate it. It can never be eliminated not now not ever. But there are ways to reduce it and get the criminal element of homelessness off the streets that cause the vast majority of blight in cities.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
sadolite
Posts: 8,837
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3/27/2012 8:09:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 7:52:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/27/2012 7:39:27 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/27/2012 7:33:55 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/27/2012 7:19:55 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/27/2012 6:50:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
OK now, All of you who have given your opinions on my idea good or bad. You will now post an alternative idea. I said in the OP that politics will be left out of this. So all of you who are comparing it to communism and fascism, you need not post anything as you are worthless as a possible source of alternative ideas. As you can only criticize ideas and useless for coming up with ideas. So If you who are truly interested in the problem, post your ideas or make modifications to mine. Maybe we can come to some "REAL"solution that will actually help the homeless instead of political ideologue lip service which we have now, while homeless people run amuck in our streets.

This is called dialog. That's when you don't use political BS but rather come up with ideas. Ideas that work almost always sound mean on paper, virtually all ideas that sound happy and shiny and fair on paper are usually complete and utter failures when put into practice and help no one or make the problem ten times worse.

Create jobs. Literally.

But you don't need to create a camp and force people to live in them. Homeless shelters exist- many choose not to sleep there for their own safety or physical health. Forcing a bunch of poor, hungry, unhealthy (and most likely not well-educated) people -many of whom may be convicts and drug addicts- to live in one crowded space together is irresponsible. It would only create more crime, unrest, disease, and feelings of powerlessness.

Your whole spiel takes for granted the premise that either all homeless people desire a home or that, if they don't, they should desire a home and the government has the right to coerce them into that lifestyle.

How is an internment camp for homeless people better than how things already are? If that is an acceptable solution for the problem, why don't we just rally up all social deviants and put them into little government work camps until they straighten up? Why don't we get all the punks and teach them how to dress and speak?
http://www.guardian.co.uk...
They are "running amuck" in the streets doing generally distasteful things which the general public would never think to do. Why don't we force them to bend to the majorities will as well? Why stop at homelessness?

All right we have create jobs. The camps will have security and those who commit crime will go to jail and be seperated from those who truly don't want to be homeless. Criminals belong in jail so put them in tents in the middle of no where like they do AZ. We can feed them baloney sandwiches and let them sit on their butts all day. Incorageable people need to be treated mercelesly. I know it sounds mean. What is the alternative to someone who is just going to say FUK you to everything.

Now lets focus on your ideas with dealing with people who absolutely refuse to do anything or comply with anything. My solution is to treat them like they behave, like animals. What is your solution?

Well, you could create a cesspool of crime and disease but attempt to stop that by simply putting all the inevitable criminals into prisons- but that doesn't really "solve" the problem per se. It's just a band aid. Then you're just putting the people into a cycle of recidivism instead of a cycle of simple poverty and homelessness. This still costs tax money (probably a lot more than the state of homelessness as it is presently) and may even make for more dangerous criminals once they are released- left to stew in their powerlessness and rage and trade criminal tricks of the trade with other experienced prison-dwellers, the homeless will grow from simple poorfolk to savvy criminals.

If they refuse to comply with the new rules about homelessness, what should we do? Join them. If the government acts like a fascistic entity, it should be treated as one. Sic semper tyrannis.

OK no solutions here. Just political crap and it's tyranny to attempt to force any homeless person to do anything. So I don't see much hope for reducing homelessness from this perspective. It would just be an endless "no you can't do that either" discussion.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
sadolite
Posts: 8,837
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3/27/2012 8:24:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In other words don't even try because something might happen. You haven't a plan for every conceivable complication that may arise. So until we can come up with a plan that can address every conceivable possible problem and deal with evry single homelessness person with a custom tailored plan for each individual there is no point in changing the status quo or trying something new .

So we have create jobs.
Free college
affordable housing what ever that means
raise the minimum wage.

None of these are going to get homeless people off the streets as far as I can tell. Sounds very reminiscent to lip service to me so far.

Lets hear your plan. Not what you think ought to be done. You must implement your plan. What should I do if I fallow your plan. I am going to get people to help implement your plan. What is your first order of business. What is the first thing you would do on day one of your plan. My idea was to make living and sleeping in the streets illegal as my first order of business.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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3/27/2012 8:56:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 8:09:34 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/27/2012 7:52:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/27/2012 7:39:27 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/27/2012 7:33:55 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/27/2012 7:19:55 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/27/2012 6:50:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
OK now, All of you who have given your opinions on my idea good or bad. You will now post an alternative idea. I said in the OP that politics will be left out of this. So all of you who are comparing it to communism and fascism, you need not post anything as you are worthless as a possible source of alternative ideas. As you can only criticize ideas and useless for coming up with ideas. So If you who are truly interested in the problem, post your ideas or make modifications to mine. Maybe we can come to some "REAL"solution that will actually help the homeless instead of political ideologue lip service which we have now, while homeless people run amuck in our streets.

This is called dialog. That's when you don't use political BS but rather come up with ideas. Ideas that work almost always sound mean on paper, virtually all ideas that sound happy and shiny and fair on paper are usually complete and utter failures when put into practice and help no one or make the problem ten times worse.

Create jobs. Literally.

But you don't need to create a camp and force people to live in them. Homeless shelters exist- many choose not to sleep there for their own safety or physical health. Forcing a bunch of poor, hungry, unhealthy (and most likely not well-educated) people -many of whom may be convicts and drug addicts- to live in one crowded space together is irresponsible. It would only create more crime, unrest, disease, and feelings of powerlessness.

Your whole spiel takes for granted the premise that either all homeless people desire a home or that, if they don't, they should desire a home and the government has the right to coerce them into that lifestyle.

How is an internment camp for homeless people better than how things already are? If that is an acceptable solution for the problem, why don't we just rally up all social deviants and put them into little government work camps until they straighten up? Why don't we get all the punks and teach them how to dress and speak?
http://www.guardian.co.uk...
They are "running amuck" in the streets doing generally distasteful things which the general public would never think to do. Why don't we force them to bend to the majorities will as well? Why stop at homelessness?

All right we have create jobs. The camps will have security and those who commit crime will go to jail and be seperated from those who truly don't want to be homeless. Criminals belong in jail so put them in tents in the middle of no where like they do AZ. We can feed them baloney sandwiches and let them sit on their butts all day. Incorageable people need to be treated mercelesly. I know it sounds mean. What is the alternative to someone who is just going to say FUK you to everything.

Now lets focus on your ideas with dealing with people who absolutely refuse to do anything or comply with anything. My solution is to treat them like they behave, like animals. What is your solution?

Well, you could create a cesspool of crime and disease but attempt to stop that by simply putting all the inevitable criminals into prisons- but that doesn't really "solve" the problem per se. It's just a band aid. Then you're just putting the people into a cycle of recidivism instead of a cycle of simple poverty and homelessness. This still costs tax money (probably a lot more than the state of homelessness as it is presently) and may even make for more dangerous criminals once they are released- left to stew in their powerlessness and rage and trade criminal tricks of the trade with other experienced prison-dwellers, the homeless will grow from simple poorfolk to savvy criminals.

If they refuse to comply with the new rules about homelessness, what should we do? Join them. If the government acts like a fascistic entity, it should be treated as one. Sic semper tyrannis.

OK no solutions here. Just political crap and it's tyranny to attempt to force any homeless person to do anything.

.... Yes, it is literally verging on tyranny, if not flat-out tyranny, to "attempt to force any homeless person to do anything." I think one could argue that your solution is an arbitrary and unnecessarily forceful use of power on the part of the government. Anyway, you might be trying to"solve" a problem that isn't necessarily a problem. Someone else pointed out that homelessness isn't necessarily caused by unemployment. That's true. So your employment camps would not necessarily solve the real problem. There are many people who are homeless because they are mentally disabled or ill, because they have a drug addiction, a physical disability, a federal conviction, or they might be homeless because they want to be- or many other reasons. Even aside from the fact that it's tyrannical, mass forced employment probably isn't the best way to go about it.

So I don't see much hope for reducing homelessness from this perspective. It would just be an endless "no you can't do that either" discussion.

At this point, my perspective has primarily been pretty simple- "Tyranny=bad." My not having given a solution just now does not reflect on the "Tyranny=bad" perspective. However, if all of your solutions are tyrannical, and I have no solutions yet, then yes, this would definitely be a "no you can't do that either" discussion. I can say that with full confidence.

It would benefit us to know the causes of homelessness before we continue searching for solutions. I'm just not sure that forcing people to work in camps and garnishing their wages against their will to make them find a home is really gonna cut to the core of this issue. It's not cheap, it's not pragmatic, it's tyrannical, and it may be unnecessary altogether.

If I knew more causes of it, I might know more solutions.
If anyone knows- do tell :)
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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3/27/2012 8:58:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 8:24:53 PM, sadolite wrote:
In other words don't even try because something might happen. You haven't a plan for every conceivable complication that may arise. So until we can come up with a plan that can address every conceivable possible problem and deal with evry single homelessness person with a custom tailored plan for each individual there is no point in changing the status quo or trying something new .

I'm accusing your solution of having much more than a problem of "complications." I'm accusing it of probably doing more harm than good and being tyrannical- which is a problem in itself.

So we have create jobs.
Free college
affordable housing what ever that means
raise the minimum wage.

None of these are going to get homeless people off the streets as far as I can tell. Sounds very reminiscent to lip service to me so far.

Lets hear your plan. Not what you think ought to be done. You must implement your plan. What should I do if I fallow your plan. I am going to get people to help implement your plan. What is your first order of business. What is the first thing you would do on day one of your plan. My idea was to make living and sleeping in the streets illegal as my first order of business.

Stand by.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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3/27/2012 8:58:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
How do we eliminate homelessness? Easy! Kill all the homeless people. /sarcasm, in case you missed it somehow.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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3/27/2012 8:59:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 8:58:35 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
How do we eliminate homelessness? Easy! Kill all the homeless people. /sarcasm, in case you missed it somehow.

It looks good on paper. The numbers are striking.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Chthonian
Posts: 247
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3/27/2012 9:04:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 8:04:22 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/27/2012 7:34:31 PM, Chthonian wrote:

I think the best way to effectively reduce homelessness is to make housing and college education more affordable, and raise the hourly minimum wage.

HMM. sounds pretty happy and shiny, but OK. We've done the affordable housing thing and look what happened to all that affordable housing across the country. We can try that all over again if you want though. Just exactly how high can the minimum wage ultimately be? Is the ski the limit ? if not why do we waste time raising it a little bit at a time just move it all the way to it's maximum right now. College, that is something you must earn not handed to you.

Detention is only mandatory if you plan on sleeping in the streets. And no I can't stop people from leaving the city and living in the woods. There is no perfect solution to anything. My plan is to reduce homelessness not eliminate it. It can never be eliminated not now not ever. But there are ways to reduce it and get the criminal element of homelessness off the streets that cause the vast majority of blight in cities.

Ok, let's take this from a different angle: what percentage of one's income should be devoted to housing? The experts say anywhere from 30-35%. So folks making the current minimum wage of $7.25 an hour--assuming one works 40hrs a week for 52 weeks--make a gross income of about 15K a year. Thirty percentage of 15K is 4.5K. That means these folks have 375 dollars a month to put towards housing. Could you afford to live anywhere in your area for 375 a month , sadolite? Last, I am not saying that entrance into college shouldn't be earned; I just think there needs to be more opportunity for kids from poor households to have the tuition lessened or subsidized.

I don't necessarily blame the homeless for the conditions they find themselves. My solutions are meant to be long-term goals that are designed to produce productive members of society. I agree that homelessness is not going to be eliminated, but I don't think that punishment is the right road to reduce it. Also, in my view, the homeless aren't homeless because it is easy; they are homeless because they can't afford to live in a home and have no means for attaining the funds necessary to stay in a home. My solutions logically address these issues....