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Why respect Right to Life?

Kleptin
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4/7/2012 1:54:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
For individuals who don't contribute to society?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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4/7/2012 1:56:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What is contribution to society?

And no, that's not meant to be a smartass pseudo-intellectual question. The problem with saying whether someone is contributing to society is that there can't be a definition that won't risk a slippery slope.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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4/7/2012 1:58:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 1:54:50 PM, Kleptin wrote:
For individuals who don't contribute to society?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Kleptin
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4/7/2012 1:58:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 1:56:43 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What is contribution to society?

And no, that's not meant to be a smartass pseudo-intellectual question. The problem with saying whether someone is contributing to society is that there can't be a definition that won't risk a slippery slope.

Fair question. How about...anyone who isn't paying taxes or indirectly leading other people to pay less taxes.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
DetectableNinja
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4/7/2012 1:59:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 1:58:29 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 4/7/2012 1:56:43 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What is contribution to society?

And no, that's not meant to be a smartass pseudo-intellectual question. The problem with saying whether someone is contributing to society is that there can't be a definition that won't risk a slippery slope.

Fair question. How about...anyone who isn't paying taxes or indirectly leading other people to pay less taxes.

Could you elaborate on the bit after the "or?"
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Kleptin
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4/7/2012 1:59:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 1:58:09 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/7/2012 1:54:50 PM, Kleptin wrote:
For individuals who don't contribute to society?

Good point. Children should have people to pay taxes on their behalf, as do any other vulnerable members of society. If they don't, they're fair game to being killed, OK?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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4/7/2012 2:01:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 1:59:53 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 4/7/2012 1:58:09 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/7/2012 1:54:50 PM, Kleptin wrote:
For individuals who don't contribute to society?

Good point. Children should have people to pay taxes on their behalf, as do any other vulnerable members of society. If they don't, they're fair game to being killed, OK?

But we actually give parents a tax break and those who adopt cold hard cash. Isn't that an investment in the country's future? Children are a strange example because of this.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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4/7/2012 2:01:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 1:59:34 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 4/7/2012 1:58:29 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Fair question. How about...anyone who isn't paying taxes or indirectly leading other people to pay less taxes.

Could you elaborate on the bit after the "or?"

Some people who don't pay taxes lead charitable organizations perform acts that saves the state money, such as feeding the homeless or housing the hungry, etc.

If you are dedicating your life towards something that leads to the government needing to spend less tax dollars, then that's a contribution to society.

If you have a negative contribution to the tax pool, well...
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
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4/7/2012 2:03:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:01:11 PM, Oryus wrote:
But we actually give parents a tax break and those who adopt cold hard cash. Isn't that an investment in the country's future? Children are a strange example because of this.

I think the tax break is an incentive for parents to raise their kids as opposed to throwing them into foster homes and whatnot. The cost of raising a child is a lot higher than the tax breaks you get from having one.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Oryus
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4/7/2012 2:04:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:03:21 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 4/7/2012 2:01:11 PM, Oryus wrote:
But we actually give parents a tax break and those who adopt cold hard cash. Isn't that an investment in the country's future? Children are a strange example because of this.

I think the tax break is an incentive for parents to raise their kids as opposed to throwing them into foster homes and whatnot. The cost of raising a child is a lot higher than the tax breaks you get from having one.

Definitely. Better a little than nothing, I suppose.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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4/7/2012 2:06:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Okay, so why can't we kill or maim or sell or deport or harvest the organs of people who don't contribute to society?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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4/7/2012 2:13:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 1:54:50 PM, Kleptin wrote:
For individuals who don't contribute to society?

What's the point of contributing to society? Also, you ask why should we respect life for those people? Because they arn't hurting you duhh.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
Deathbeforedishonour
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4/7/2012 2:15:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:06:03 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Okay, so why can't we kill or maim or sell or deport or harvest the organs of people who don't contribute to society?

Because then their friends will come after you and most likely do the same thing to yourself and anyone else who does that. ;P
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
Kleptin
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4/7/2012 2:15:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:13:36 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 4/7/2012 1:54:50 PM, Kleptin wrote:
For individuals who don't contribute to society?

What's the point of contributing to society? Also, you ask why should we respect life for those people? Because they arn't hurting you duhh.

Well, they kind of are hurting me. I have to pay taxes, and if they all died, I'd have to pay much less taxes.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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4/7/2012 2:16:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:15:02 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 4/7/2012 2:06:03 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Okay, so why can't we kill or maim or sell or deport or harvest the organs of people who don't contribute to society?

Because then their friends will come after you and most likely do the same thing to yourself and anyone else who does that. ;P

Well, my tax dollars go to pay the police to protect me from people who threaten me. I generate good stuff for everyone in society, so society protects me.

If someone is just a negative drain that makes everyone else have to work harder, doesn't that make it OK for them to die?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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4/7/2012 2:19:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:15:30 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 4/7/2012 2:13:36 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 4/7/2012 1:54:50 PM, Kleptin wrote:
For individuals who don't contribute to society?

What's the point of contributing to society? Also, you ask why should we respect life for those people? Because they arn't hurting you duhh.

Well, they kind of are hurting me. I have to pay taxes, and if they all died, I'd have to pay much less taxes.

It's not really them that is taxing now is it? A peaceful measure would be too not elect an idiot that's going to tax the heck out of you and give it to those that didn't earn it.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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4/7/2012 2:20:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:06:03 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Okay, so why can't we kill or maim or sell or deport or harvest the organs of people who don't contribute to society?:

LOL, is that a serious question? I assume it's rhetorical.

I don't know, because that's what Stalin did and what China continues to do to "undesirables." Most everybody else has an aversion to it.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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4/7/2012 2:23:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:15:30 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 4/7/2012 2:13:36 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 4/7/2012 1:54:50 PM, Kleptin wrote:
For individuals who don't contribute to society?

What's the point of contributing to society? Also, you ask why should we respect life for those people? Because they arn't hurting you duhh.

Well, they kind of are hurting me. I have to pay taxes, and if they all died, I'd have to pay much less taxes.:

If doing something as obligatory as paying taxes constitutes "contributing to society" then I've lost all faith in humanity.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Kleptin
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4/7/2012 2:23:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:20:29 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
LOL, is that a serious question? I assume it's rhetorical.

Well, I don't believe it, but I'm REALLY bored and if I don't defend an outrageous position, I'll have to...study...

And I don't want to.

I don't know, because that's what Stalin did and what China continues to do to "undesirables." Most everybody else has an aversion to it.

Wait, so your justification for not doing something is that Stalin and China does it, and because people think it's icky?

Not gonna cut it.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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4/7/2012 2:25:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:23:46 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
If doing something as obligatory as paying taxes constitutes "contributing to society" then I've lost all faith in humanity.

Some people don't pay taxes. Some people who don't pay taxes do things that leads to everyone paying less taxes, and I count that as contributing to society.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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4/7/2012 2:29:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:19:51 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
It's not really them that is taxing now is it? A peaceful measure would be too not elect an idiot that's going to tax the heck out of you and give it to those that didn't earn it.

There's a lot more people who pay less than they generate than people who pay more money than they generate. Democracy.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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4/7/2012 2:29:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't know, because that's what Stalin did and what China continues to do to "undesirables." Most everybody else has an aversion to it.

Wait, so your justification for not doing something is that Stalin and China does it, and because people think it's icky?

Not gonna cut it.:

I'm just pointing out that it has been done and it was viewed as a moral travesty of the highest order. Stalin imprisoned million upon millions of citizens in pograms who the State deemed unsuitable to exist in society. The Chinese continue to persecute the Falun Gong and its prisoners by harvesting their organs and selling them on the black market.

Our ethos finds that behavior morally reprehensible and a perverted way of dealing with the problem of freeloading. There's a much easier way. STOP enabling sh*tty behavior by rewarding sh*tty behavior. Genocide is not a solution... ever.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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4/7/2012 2:35:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:25:07 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 4/7/2012 2:23:46 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
If doing something as obligatory as paying taxes constitutes "contributing to society" then I've lost all faith in humanity.

Some people don't pay taxes. Some people who don't pay taxes do things that leads to everyone paying less taxes, and I count that as contributing to society.:

I see that being more a failure of the tax system. If people buy goods, they have to pay a sales tax to get it. What bums don't pay is an income tax but that's only because they have no income in which to tax!

And you can counter, well, but they get services they don't pay into. But, again, I see that as a deficiency on the system that enables them. Of course they're going to take a free hand out... the responsibility is on the politician who gives it to them.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Kleptin
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4/7/2012 2:36:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:29:29 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I'm just pointing out that it has been done and it was viewed as a moral travesty of the highest order. Stalin imprisoned million upon millions of citizens in pograms who the State deemed unsuitable to exist in society. The Chinese continue to persecute the Falun Gong and its prisoners by harvesting their organs and selling them on the black market.

The Chinese don't persecute their prisoners. They just kill them and sell their organs. The Falun Gong are a different story. They're basically the Scientologists of China and I'm kind of glad they're getting arrested. Have you ever spoken to them? They're absolutely nuts.

Anyway, the problem here is that they've been *arresting* people, which incurs a lot of heavy costs on the state. What if they just died? That's what I'm saying.

Our ethos finds that behavior morally reprehensible and a perverted way of dealing with the problem of freeloading.

Yes, I obviously agree. But why?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
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4/7/2012 2:38:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:35:06 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I see that being more a failure of the tax system. If people buy goods, they have to pay a sales tax to get it. What bums don't pay is an income tax but that's only because they have no income in which to tax!

And you can counter, well, but they get services they don't pay into. But, again, I see that as a deficiency on the system that enables them. Of course they're going to take a free hand out... the responsibility is on the politician who gives it to them.

Okay. What do you think is going to happen if we just...discontinue all free social services and charge instead?

People are going to die. You're just killing the exact same people, except indirectly, and slowly.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Ragnar_Rahl
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4/7/2012 2:41:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 1:54:50 PM, Kleptin wrote:
For individuals who don't contribute to society?

Same reason you do for anyone else. You aren't society, you're a person who incentivizes people to respect your right to life by respecting their right to life, and disincentivizes people to respect your right to life by disrespecting their right to life.

This is only relevant, of course, in regard to people who aren't already disrespecting your right to life.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Deathbeforedishonour
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4/7/2012 2:50:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:29:13 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 4/7/2012 2:19:51 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
It's not really them that is taxing now is it? A peaceful measure would be too not elect an idiot that's going to tax the heck out of you and give it to those that didn't earn it.

There's a lot more people who pay less than they generate than people who pay more money than they generate. Democracy.

1. Get an angry mob and go tell the government to stop taxing.
2. I hate democracy. :P
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
Kleptin
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4/7/2012 2:57:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 2:50:54 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
1. Get an angry mob and go tell the government to stop taxing.
2. I hate democracy. :P

A much bigger angry mob will already be there to kill me and demand that the government tax even more.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
PervRat
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4/9/2012 2:38:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I would make the argument the uber-wealthy, Mitt Romney as a poster child, pay little in taxes but the cost of their means of acquiring wealth is much higher than the paltry taxes they pay. Mitt made millions of dollars killing jobs, creating in economic terms negative externalities in his aggregation of wealth. The people he was paid to throw out on the street weren't canned because they did anything wrong nor weren't working hard enough, but because paying them fair wages was in the way for Mitt and others who were already obscenely wealthy to horde even more wealth.

I find it tragically ironic that the poor and unemployed are viewed as strains on society, when in fact it is the uber-wealthy who have taken the wealth and productive use away from most of the population.