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Libertarians vs. Conservatives, Oh my!

charleslb
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4/20/2012 5:42:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yesterday Thaddeus did a post about the infighting between the right's various factions, such as libertarians and Santorum-style conservatives. But I ask you, despite a certain emphasis on unity that the right is known for, is such internecine ideological conflict really at all surprising?

Well, yes of course the conservative camp nowadays is highly partisan (we're witnessing that right now as even radical rightists such as washed-up rocker Ted Nugent throw their support behind faux-conservative presidential candidate Mitt Romney), ideologically insular (in both the sense that their ideology insulates them from reality within a political mythos in which an agenda that includes breaking labor unions, deregulating capitalist greed, perpetuating corporate welfare, doing away with the social safety net, and now defunding Planned Parenthood is portrayed as being aimed at the greater good; and in the sense that conservative ideologues close themselves off to the ideas and insights of the left, reacting against our ideas and insights as if they're quite anathema) to the point of being dogmatic and bigoted, and of course its members are characterized by a common underlying mentality (whose features are SDO [social dominance orientation]; authoritarianism; a tendency to moralize; what I refer to elsewhere as a siege mentality; and, in the case of Christianist conservatives, religious exclusivism).

However, despite their tendency to circle the party's wagons, to erect and hide out together behind certain ideological ramparts against reality, and to share a common psychological profile, conservatives and their movement aren't at all monolithic. Their unity is not sufficient to preclude diversity, such as it is. That is, at one end of the rightist spectrum we find what I'll term fascist conservatives (needless to say, no American conservative actually identifies with the epithet "fascist", but it's still accurately descriptive of a certain ilk of "conservative"), such as the folks on the religious right who yearn to impose their morality and theology on the rest of us, as well as others who would like to use the power of government to politically ramrod society in a rightward direction. And, at the other end, we find so-called "libertarians", who quixotically dream the impossible dream of a free market utopia in which capitalists all honorably play by the rules even though they're thoroughly deregulated and freed up to behave like egoistic individualists, and working-class folks live happily ever after without any government protection or social safety net.

And, in between these two ideologically antipodean poles on the ole spectrum we find many individuals who are a mixed bag of the tendencies of both extremes. For instance, individuals who may be both "cultural conservatives" who are in favor of a much bigger government role in our private lives (i.e., they'd like to crackdown on homosexuals, ban abortion, and post the Ten Commandments in public schools) and free-marketeers (!); or conservative individuals who are socially liberal but still staunchly opposed to the very notion of a progressively activist government. Etc.

Well then, it's not at all news to me that conservatives and right-libertarians have their issues with each other, and that some don't even classify libertarians as "conservatives". But nevertheless they are, rightists. That is, as I've already mentioned, they share the same fundamental mentality. Say what?! How can I say that libertarians and fascist-type conservatives share the same defining mental characteristic?

Well, I can because they both do. Namely, SDO, social dominance orientation. But isn't a "libertarian" by definition above reproach for having a dominance-oriented mentality? Actually, no he/she isn't. For what the typical right-libertarian really is is an egoistic individualist who very much has social dominance on the brain, in the sense that he's hyper-concerned about being subjected to someone else's social dominance (the focus of his hyper-concern of course becomes the big bad government); and in the sense that he vicariously identifies with and idolizes uber-rich capitalists, our society's equivalent of dominant males, aspires to join their ranks, and dreams of living in a society in which he and his fellow capitalists would have carte blanche to pursue economic and social dominance.

Libertarian ideology and rhetoric masks this largely subconscious dominance-orientation, but certainly doesn't suppress it, just listen to some "vulgar libertarians" (as Kevin Carson calls them) engage in adulation of the alpha capitalists whom they relate to far better than their fellow working-class Joes and Janes. And, conversely, listen to how they disparage the poor and the homeless in very Nietzschean terms, so to speak, as worthless untermenschen who deserve no form of welfare assistance. It's not at all mere hyperbole to say that lurking within the brains of libertarians is a little Neanderthaloid homunculus who admires society's dominance-possessors (i.e., capitalists), holds the less-fortunate in contempt as inferior losers, and wishes to be left alone to ruthlessly strive after success, superior status, and social powerfulness.

Yep, libertarianism is just a big ole political construct that intellectualizes the libertarian's will-to-dominance into something lofty-sounding, and that wish-fulfillingly expresses the libertarian's vision of a society in which one is at licentious liberty to be an unabashed alpha capitalist. Needless to say, the fascist also has a dominance-oriented mentality, which he/she wishes to express by capturing control of the apparatus of the state and using it to force his/her politics, morality, and religion on all of us. The Christianist conservative, for example, would like to exercise cultural and social control by legislating our morality in regard to women's issues, homosexuality and marriage equality, genetic research, etc. This, forcing his/her agenda for a Christian society on us, is merely a sanctimonious way of seeking and enjoying dominance.

In either case, whether one is a libertarian seeking to create a ferally dog-eat-dog "free market" in which one is free to play the capitalist alpha dog lording socioeconomic dominance over underdog workers, or one is a fascist fundamentalist trying to win the culture war and make the rest of society cater to his/her Bible-based bigotry, either way one's politics merely reflect and seek to reify one's core dominance-oriented mentality. So, the upshot is that I very much can answer the question "How can I say that both libertarians and fascists share the same rightist psychological makeup?" as I did before going into a bit of detail, by simply flatly stating the fact that they do, share an emotive-cognitive constitution distinctly colored by SDO.

So much about the conservative mind-set is explained by this psychiatric diagnosis, as it were. For instance, the staunchness and dogmatism of conservatives is in large measure a manifestation of the dominance-oriented mentality's will to be right and to impose its point of view. And the moralism of conservatives, well, this is both a way of enjoying a sense of superiority and an avenue to social dominance, for he who forces his/her morality on his neighbor, even benevolently, is after all asserting his/her will and control. Moralism also provides a nice pretext and cover for one's dominance tendencies, making it possible to express them and to push one's agenda without being recognized and dismissed as a crude dominance-monger.

But, as I've observed, none of this prevents the existence of some measure of intellectual and ideological diversity among wingers, so yes, the inability of some libertarians and conservatives to recognize their psychological kinship is to be expected.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
OberHerr
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4/20/2012 6:11:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
As if the left-wing camp is any less partisan.

Oh well, yet another pointlessly wordy Charleslb thread I'm not gonna waste my time reading.
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LibertyCampbell
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4/20/2012 6:24:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Seriously man, I'm having trouble reading your essays now. You don't get to the point, and most of it is unsupported garbage. Learn to compress.
"[Society] has no vested interest in continuing to exist." -RP
Thaddeus
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4/20/2012 6:47:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I always look forward to good old Charles post. Whilst some of his idiosyncratic writing habits occasionally elicit a chuckle, they are always worth the time spent reading (well provided one is sober) and often make one think.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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4/20/2012 7:59:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 6:11:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
As if the left-wing camp is any less partisan.

Oh well, yet another pointlessly wordy Charleslb thread I'm not gonna waste my time reading.

Negative feedback on the style rather than the substance of my editorial, as it were; and from a, drum roll please, from a conservative! Wow, I would never have suspected that I'd receive a personally polemic response of this nature from a conservative. I guess that you can't be bothered to strain your brain to formulate any real thoughts on any of the various critical observations contained in or fundamental thesis of the OP?
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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4/20/2012 8:01:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 6:24:20 PM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
Seriously man, I'm having trouble reading your essays now. You don't get to the point, and most of it is unsupported garbage. Learn to compress.

Woopee, another conservative who's up to the challenge of responding to a post that's longer than the average Twitter message.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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4/20/2012 8:09:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 6:47:11 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
I always look forward to good old Charles post. Whilst some of his idiosyncratic writing habits occasionally elicit a chuckle, they are always worth the time spent reading (well provided one is sober) and often make one think.

Thank you, Thaddeus, at least one respondent to the thread is a reader. As for my writing being idiosyncratic, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. That's all right though, I'm not at all interested in kowtowing to conventionality.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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4/20/2012 8:54:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Not sure if Charles got the memo, but libertarians simply is the antithesis of statism. The other axis, left and right, deals with socioeconomic beliefs.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Contra
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4/20/2012 11:29:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 8:54:12 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Not sure if Charles got the memo, but libertarians simply is the antithesis of statism. The other axis, left and right, deals with socioeconomic beliefs.

Political philosophy is based on unconscious morality.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
16kadams
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4/20/2012 11:34:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
They are all partisan
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Contra
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4/20/2012 11:35:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 11:34:14 PM, 16kadams wrote:
They are all partisan

Most are yes
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
johnnyboy54
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4/20/2012 11:35:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 6:11:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
As if the left-wing camp is any less partisan.

Oh well, yet another pointlessly wordy Charleslb thread I'm not gonna waste my time reading.

This
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Contra
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4/20/2012 11:38:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 11:35:22 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 4/20/2012 6:11:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
As if the left-wing camp is any less partisan.

Oh well, yet another pointlessly wordy Charleslb thread I'm not gonna waste my time reading.

This
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/21/2012 1:58:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 5:42:39 PM, charleslb wrote:
But I ask you, despite a certain emphasis on unity that the right is known for
What nonsense is this? Unity is collectivism.

And, at the other end, we find so-called "libertarians", who quixotically dream the impossible dream of a free market utopia in which capitalists all honorably play by the rules even though they're thoroughly deregulated
Notably, they're also, at least in minarchy, subjected to full liability for their actions in the courts.

Well, I can because they both do. Namely, SDO, social dominance orientation. But isn't a "libertarian" by definition above reproach for having a dominance-oriented mentality?
Even if not, you still need to remove the social there.

Actually, no he/she isn't. For what the typical right-libertarian really is is an egoistic individualist who very much has social dominance on the brain
Egoistic individualism and "social dominance" are two opposite goals.

in the sense that he's hyper-concerned about being subjected to someone else's social dominance
S***, if I'm against murder I'm "murder-oriented" I guess.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
charleslb
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4/21/2012 2:00:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 8:54:12 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Not sure if Charles got the memo, but libertarians simply is the antithesis of statism. The other axis, left and right, deals with socioeconomic beliefs.

If you had actually read the OP and not just skimmed or glanced at it you'd know that my attribution of a dominance-oriented mentality to both libertarians and what I've termed fascist conservatives has nothing to do with stances such as statist and anti-statist or left and right. I won't rehash here, since you apparently haven't even perused the first hashing of my thesis, I'll just suggest that you might like to do so before posting any more critical quips.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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4/21/2012 2:05:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 11:34:14 PM, 16kadams wrote:
They are all partisan

And with this sweeping and simplistic statement you think that you've effectively disposed of my thesis, do you?! Come on, if you have a case to make against the views expressed in my OP, then take a bit of time and trouble and make it.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
CrazyPerson
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4/21/2012 2:07:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I believe you've pinned the ideologies quite well. If I read the opening post while imagining someone reciting a very witty speech, it comes rather cleverly. However, if I read it as writing, it is very fluffy, stuffy, and huffy.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
charleslb
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4/21/2012 2:14:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/21/2012 1:58:23 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/20/2012 5:42:39 PM, charleslb wrote:
But I ask you, despite a certain emphasis on unity that the right is known for
What nonsense is this? Unity is collectivism.

You're equating unity and collectivism? This is simplistic libertarian ideologizing.


And, at the other end, we find so-called "libertarians", who quixotically dream the impossible dream of a free market utopia in which capitalists all honorably play by the rules even though they're thoroughly deregulated
Notably, they're also, at least in minarchy, subjected to full liability for their actions in the courts.

You mean the courts that their money-power will have corrupted and co-opted?

Well, I can because they both do. Namely, SDO, social dominance orientation. But isn't a "libertarian" by definition above reproach for having a dominance-oriented mentality?
Even if not, you still need to remove the social there.

Why, because libertarians are too asocial?!

Actually, no he/she isn't. For what the typical right-libertarian really is is an egoistic individualist who very much has social dominance on the brain
Egoistic individualism and "social dominance" are two opposite goals.

According to your interpretation.

in the sense that he's hyper-concerned about being subjected to someone else's social dominance
S***, if I'm against murder I'm "murder-oriented" I guess.

You've taken this somewhat out of context, my point was that it's symptomatic of the fact that libertarians have dominance on the brain.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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4/21/2012 2:18:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/21/2012 2:07:40 AM, CrazyPerson wrote:
I believe you've pinned the ideologies quite well. If I read the opening post while imagining someone reciting a very witty speech, it comes rather cleverly. However, if I read it as writing, it is very fluffy, stuffy, and huffy.

Thank you for your feedback. I'm glad that you see some merit in my analysis of the libertarian and conservative ideological mentalities; and, as for your critique of my style of self-expression, well, it's a free country and everyone is entitled to be a critic.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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4/21/2012 2:20:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 11:35:22 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 4/20/2012 6:11:57 PM, OberHerr wrote:
As if the left-wing camp is any less partisan.

Oh well, yet another pointlessly wordy Charleslb thread I'm not gonna waste my time reading.

This

Is this really all that you have to contribute? Oh well.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
Ragnar_Rahl
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4/21/2012 2:46:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/21/2012 2:14:56 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 4/21/2012 1:58:23 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/20/2012 5:42:39 PM, charleslb wrote:
But I ask you, despite a certain emphasis on unity that the right is known for
What nonsense is this? Unity is collectivism.

You're equating unity and collectivism? This is simplistic libertarian ideologizing.
It's simple at least. If all humans=one collective --> unity



And, at the other end, we find so-called "libertarians", who quixotically dream the impossible dream of a free market utopia in which capitalists all honorably play by the rules even though they're thoroughly deregulated
Notably, they're also, at least in minarchy, subjected to full liability for their actions in the courts.

You mean the courts that their money-power will have corrupted and co-opted?
Compare that to Congress, or whatever bureaucrats you want running things.


Well, I can because they both do. Namely, SDO, social dominance orientation. But isn't a "libertarian" by definition above reproach for having a dominance-oriented mentality?
Even if not, you still need to remove the social there.

Why, because libertarians are too asocial?!
Well, I sure am!


Actually, no he/she isn't. For what the typical right-libertarian really is is an egoistic individualist who very much has social dominance on the brain
Egoistic individualism and "social dominance" are two opposite goals.

According to your interpretation.
Hardly a rebuttal.


in the sense that he's hyper-concerned about being subjected to someone else's social dominance
S***, if I'm against murder I'm "murder-oriented" I guess.

You've taken this somewhat out of context, my point was that it's symptomatic of the fact that libertarians have dominance on the brain.
Charleslb, there's one person on this site who speaks about and thinks about "dominance" at least two orders of magnitude more often than anyone else on this site.
He's not a libertarian.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
charleslb
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4/21/2012 2:23:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/21/2012 2:46:39 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/21/2012 2:14:56 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 4/21/2012 1:58:23 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/20/2012 5:42:39 PM, charleslb wrote:
But I ask you, despite a certain emphasis on unity that the right is known for
What nonsense is this? Unity is collectivism.

You're equating unity and collectivism? This is simplistic libertarian ideologizing.
It's simple at least. If all humans=one collective --> unity

Your thinking, i.e., the thinking of the mind of an atomized individual who's latched on to "libertarianism" as a self-justifying philosophy, is simply ideologically skewed to conceive of unity as homogenized collectivism. At any rate, quibbling over the definition of the word "unity" is going off on a tangent, which I don't care to do.

And, at the other end, we find so-called "libertarians", who quixotically dream the impossible dream of a free market utopia in which capitalists all honorably play by the rules even though they're thoroughly deregulated
Notably, they're also, at least in minarchy, subjected to full liability for their actions in the courts.

You mean the courts that their money-power will have corrupted and co-opted?

Compare that to Congress, or whatever bureaucrats you want running things.

The capitalist elite already to a great extent runs the ole show through the politicos and bureaucrats who are the objects of your ideological contempt, the more we give our society over to the spirit of capitalism, the more it will be the case that we live under a dictatorship of the plutotariat.

Well, I can because they both do. Namely, SDO, social dominance orientation. But isn't a "libertarian" by definition above reproach for having a dominance-oriented mentality?
Even if not, you still need to remove the social there.

Why, because libertarians are too asocial?!
Well, I sure am!

And apparently proud of it. More's the pity.

Actually, no he/she isn't. For what the typical right-libertarian really is is an egoistic individualist who very much has social dominance on the brain
Egoistic individualism and "social dominance" are two opposite goals.

According to your interpretation.
Hardly a rebuttal.

No rebuttal is required. Given the way in which I'm using these two terms they're actually quite compatible. Quite simply, it's the primitive psycho-biological drive to social dominance that largely underlies people's self-assertive egoism, their tendency to think of themselves as separate ego entities in competition with other separate ego entities for economic and social dominance.

in the sense that he's hyper-concerned about being subjected to someone else's social dominance
S***, if I'm against murder I'm "murder-oriented" I guess.

You've taken this somewhat out of context, my point was that it's symptomatic of the fact that libertarians have dominance on the brain.
Charleslb, there's one person on this site who speaks about and thinks about "dominance" at least two orders of magnitude more often than anyone else on this site.
He's not a libertarian.

Yes, but he finds himself contending with plenty of libertarians and conservatives, so it's hardly surprising that he finds himself returning, again and again, to the theme of their easily detectable social dominance orientation.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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4/21/2012 2:24:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's interesting how libertarians and conservatives seem to be shying away from this one.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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4/21/2012 3:00:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/21/2012 2:24:17 PM, charleslb wrote:
It's interesting how libertarians and conservatives seem to be shying away from this one.

Or perhaps we're just tired of trying to convince you that your psychoanalysis is inherently flawed, but you seem to have to chance at all of changing your mind, so the conversation is pointless. We've had this thread before, and unless you're going to introduce something more, we're not having it again.
Ragnar_Rahl
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4/21/2012 4:01:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/21/2012 2:23:14 PM, charleslb wrote:
Your thinking, i.e., the thinking of the mind of an atomized individual who's latched on to "libertarianism" as a self-justifying philosophy, is simply ideologically skewed to conceive of unity as homogenized collectivism.
Do you ever care about arguments, or just ad hominems?

The capitalist elite already to a great extent runs the ole show through the politicos and bureaucrats who are the objects of your ideological contempt, the more we give our society over to the spirit of capitalism, the more it will be the case that we live under a dictatorship of the plutotariat.
So what bureaucrats DO you want running things?
The point of the comparison is that courts are a lot harder to buy than other institutions. Why? The expectations are different. Every judge is bound to give a reason for their decision, every case requires a hearing in which all sides have to be given adequate time. In a court, things see the light of day.

No rebuttal is required. Given the way in which I'm using these two terms they're actually quite compatible
As a non-egoist, the way you use the term egoism doesn't take precedence.
As someone interested in social domination of individuals, OTOH, do what you please with that stuff.

Quite simply, it's the primitive psycho-biological drive to social dominance that largely underlies people's self-assertive egoism
Biology tells us that you'll have a tendency to sacrifice yourself for 3 people who share 50% of your genetic material, or 5 people who share 25% etc. Egoism is only present in those whose motivations have to that extent transcended evolutionary pressures.

their tendency to think of themselves as separate ego entities in competition with other separate ego entities for economic and social dominance.
Competition is contingent, it's by no means vital to egoism, and egoism often encourages cooperation as well (What else, pray tell, is a shareholder corporation?)

Yes, but he finds himself contending with plenty of libertarians and conservatives
And projects the things he thinks about onto them.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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4/21/2012 4:04:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I can't think of a single libertarian on this site who's frequently mentioned the word "Dominance" outside the context of either one of your posts, Charles, or a sexual context.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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4/22/2012 3:42:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/21/2012 4:01:14 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/21/2012 2:23:14 PM, charleslb wrote:
Your thinking, i.e., the thinking of the mind of an atomized individual who's latched on to "libertarianism" as a self-justifying philosophy, is simply ideologically skewed to conceive of unity as homogenized collectivism.
Do you ever care about arguments, or just ad hominems?

Sometimes, especially when dealing with ideologues, it's appropriate, justifiable, and productive of better understanding to not take people's thinking at face value but to instead probe deeper for the ulterior psychological motives that account for their ideological male bovine excrement.

The capitalist elite already to a great extent runs the ole show through the politicos and bureaucrats who are the objects of your ideological contempt, the more we give our society over to the spirit of capitalism, the more it will be the case that we live under a dictatorship of the plutotariat.

So what bureaucrats DO you want running things?

The point of the comparison is that courts are a lot harder to buy than other institutions. Why? The expectations are different. Every judge is bound to give a reason for their decision, every case requires a hearing in which all sides have to be given adequate time. In a court, things see the light of day.

What's that word that I like to use now and again, oh yeah, rubbish. Naive rubbish. Recall, if you will, how back in ole Scarface Al Capone's day it was proven to be eminently possible to buy judges and subvert the jurisprudential process of "justice".

No rebuttal is required. Given the way in which I'm using these two terms they're actually quite compatible
As a non-egoist, the way you use the term egoism doesn't take precedence.

Perhaps, rather, someone standing outside of the mentality of egoism can analyze it better than someone, such as yourself, whose ego is invested in rationalizing his own egoism.

As someone interested in social domination of individuals, OTOH, do what you please with that stuff.

Unconstructive response.

Quite simply, it's the primitive psycho-biological drive to social dominance that largely underlies people's self-assertive egoism

Biology tells us that you'll have a tendency to sacrifice yourself for 3 people who share 50% of your genetic material, or 5 people who share 25% etc. Egoism is only present in those whose motivations have to that extent transcended evolutionary pressures.

This is neither here nor there vis-à-vis anything that I'm talking about.



their tendency to think of themselves as separate ego entities in competition with other separate ego entities for economic and social dominance.

Competition is contingent, it's by no means vital to egoism, and egoism often encourages cooperation as well (What else, pray tell, is a shareholder corporation?)

Selfish capitalistic egoism, a force for good in the world, hmm? I think not.

Yes, but he finds himself contending with plenty of libertarians and conservatives
And projects the things he thinks about onto them.

Don't get me started on the penchant for projection of right-libertarians & conservatives, who even project their own tendency to engage in projection!
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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4/22/2012 3:48:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/21/2012 3:00:42 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 4/21/2012 2:24:17 PM, charleslb wrote:
It's interesting how libertarians and conservatives seem to be shying away from this one.

Or perhaps we're just tired of trying to convince you that your psychoanalysis is inherently flawed, but you seem to have to chance at all of changing your mind, so the conversation is pointless. We've had this thread before, and unless you're going to introduce something more, we're not having it again.

Translation: "I and my fellow libertarians haven't been able to win our arguments with you, and therefore we're not too keen on engaging you when the topic is the very legitimacy of our core ideological worldview." Well, if you change your mind I'll be here.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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4/22/2012 9:36:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/22/2012 3:48:42 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 4/21/2012 3:00:42 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 4/21/2012 2:24:17 PM, charleslb wrote:
It's interesting how libertarians and conservatives seem to be shying away from this one.

Or perhaps we're just tired of trying to convince you that your psychoanalysis is inherently flawed, but you seem to have to chance at all of changing your mind, so the conversation is pointless. We've had this thread before, and unless you're going to introduce something more, we're not having it again.

Translation: "I and my fellow libertarians haven't been able to win our arguments with you, and therefore we're not too keen on engaging you when the topic is the very legitimacy of our core ideological worldview." Well, if you change your mind I'll be here.

What makes you think you've been winning? Oh, wait, bias.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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4/22/2012 3:01:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/22/2012 9:36:06 AM, mongeese wrote:
At 4/22/2012 3:48:42 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 4/21/2012 3:00:42 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 4/21/2012 2:24:17 PM, charleslb wrote:
It's interesting how libertarians and conservatives seem to be shying away from this one.

Or perhaps we're just tired of trying to convince you that your psychoanalysis is inherently flawed, but you seem to have to chance at all of changing your mind, so the conversation is pointless. We've had this thread before, and unless you're going to introduce something more, we're not having it again.

Translation: "I and my fellow libertarians haven't been able to win our arguments with you, and therefore we're not too keen on engaging you when the topic is the very legitimacy of our core ideological worldview." Well, if you change your mind I'll be here.

What makes you think you've been winning? Oh, wait, bias.

Well, if you think that the analysis of the right-libertarian and conservative mentality in my OP is such a losing proposition, then you shouldn't have any difficulty rising to the challenge of constructing a few counterarguments. Or perhaps you would be more challenged to do so than you wish to let on?
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.