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Corporal Punishment

Logical-Master
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8/8/2009 9:10:53 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Good? Bad? Both? I'd like to hear everyone's views on this subject. I am particularly interested in the views of those who are actually parents here at the moment.

So by all means, discuss. :D
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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8/8/2009 11:56:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Violence against utterly defenseless and utterly dependent children.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/9/2009 12:10:39 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I am not a parent, but I'll add my two pence (sorry two cents) anyway.

I have no problem with corporal punishment in principle. I believe that judging from the way my brothers and myself were raised that you can generally discipline children without recourse to actual physical pain assuming that you properly set boundaries from the start. But I still think it is acceptable as a later resort.

A simple slap on the bottom does the child no real harm, but for the psychological trauma upon which morality is based.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
brian_eggleston
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8/9/2009 3:03:45 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I'm not a parent but I am regularly entrusted to look after my six-year-old niece, my 13-year-old goddaughter and my seven young cousins who are aged between 3 and 16.

I must say, I have never smacked any of the girls but I do find disciplining a boy using a clip around the ear is often a more effective device than the persuasive arguments I employ on the girls.
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
feverish
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8/9/2009 4:43:47 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I'm a parent who was battered as a small child and I don't agree with corporal punishment at all.

Obviously restraint and self-defense is allowed and I don't have a real problem with an occasional single smack or clip round the ear, I just wouldn't do it myself. Even with my nephew who is autistic spectrum and can have very extreme behaviour.

I sympathise with parents who lash out occasionally as parenting is very hard work but I think it should be avoided.

Parents who properly beat their kids, (especially if it is systematic or severe and especially if they think they are actually benefiting the kid) have psychological issues, lack parenting skills and in extreme cases should be prosecuted.
Ragnar_Rahl
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8/9/2009 8:17:44 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
http://www.debate.org...
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Kleptin
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8/10/2009 11:09:21 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Last poster is DAT, derailing the conversation into an irrelevant topic where he an quote scripture. That topic is dead and this one should replace it.

I am all for the beating of children as a disciplinary measure. Kids who aren't beaten are more likely to have a teenage rebellion phase. Kids who are beaten too much end up with psychological issues. Kids who are beaten with a loving heart and good intentions tend to show more respect towards their parents in their teenage years, wen it finally sinks in as to why they were beaten.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
patsox834
Posts: 406
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8/11/2009 3:51:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/10/2009 11:09:21 AM, Kleptin wrote:
Last poster is DAT, derailing the conversation into an irrelevant topic where he an quote scripture. That topic is dead and this one should replace it.

I am all for the beating of children as a disciplinary measure. Kids who aren't beaten are more likely to have a teenage rebellion phase. Kids who are beaten too much end up with psychological issues. Kids who are beaten with a loving heart and good intentions tend to show more respect towards their parents in their teenage years, wen it finally sinks in as to why they were beaten.

You're joking, right?
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/11/2009 3:59:25 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/10/2009 11:09:21 AM, Kleptin wrote:
Last poster is DAT, derailing the conversation into an irrelevant topic where he an quote scripture. That topic is dead and this one should replace it.

I am all for the beating of children as a disciplinary measure. Kids who aren't beaten are more likely to have a teenage rebellion phase. Kids who are beaten too much end up with psychological issues. Kids who are beaten with a loving heart and good intentions tend to show more respect towards their parents in their teenage years, wen it finally sinks in as to why they were beaten.

Replace beating with disciplining.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/11/2009 4:00:54 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/10/2009 11:09:21 AM, Kleptin wrote:
Last poster is DAT, derailing the conversation into an irrelevant topic where he an quote scripture. That topic is dead and this one should replace it.

I am all for the beating of children as a disciplinary measure. Kids who aren't beaten are more likely to have a teenage rebellion phase. Kids who are beaten too much end up with psychological issues. Kids who are beaten with a loving heart and good intentions tend to show more respect towards their parents in their teenage years, wen it finally sinks in as to why they were beaten.

I wish to retain the RIGHT to discipline my own children as I see fit.
I would never hit in anger or in public.
I would set a time at the end of the week.
I would, whenever possible and if they showed remorse, show grace and cancel the punishment.
Why are kids SO unhappy nowadays? why are they running wild? stabbing each other etc?
BECAUSE we have taken discipline out of the homes and out of the schools.
The loved child is the disciplined child.
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
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8/11/2009 4:01:52 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/8/2009 11:56:59 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Violence against utterly defenseless and utterly dependent children.

*see what what a sensitive and good person I am!*
The Cross.. the Cross.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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8/11/2009 2:15:03 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/10/2009 11:09:21 AM, Kleptin wrote:
Last poster is DAT, derailing the conversation into an irrelevant topic where he an quote scripture. That topic is dead and this one should replace it.

I am all for the beating of children as a disciplinary measure. Kids who aren't beaten are more likely to have a teenage rebellion phase. Kids who are beaten too much end up with psychological issues. Kids who are beaten with a loving heart and good intentions tend to show more respect towards their parents in their teenage years, wen it finally sinks in as to why they were beaten.

I am surprised at this opinion from you Kleptin, although I don't know why as I can't really claim to be able to predict the opinions of you or anyone else.

Obviously I don't know you personally, nor am I a psychologist (and you can of course tell me to mind my own beeswax) but .... assuming you yourself were beaten, (no cultural stereotype intended) do you think it is possible that you are rationalising the resentment you feel at being beaten because of the love you have for your parents?
Kleptin
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8/11/2009 7:52:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I never felt resentment at being beaten, thus, there is nothing to rationalize. It comes from understanding at an early age, WHY you are beaten. Resentment would only come from the idea that you are punished unjustly. For my parents' values and morals, the punishments fit the crime, and thus, they are justified. Insubordination, embarrassing my parents/making them lose face, bad test grades, etc.

I was mainly punished with smacks in the face and thin weaponry like chopsticks, never anything actually dangerous. Just enough to get the message through.

My love for my parents would definitely not be strong enough a psychological reason to rationalize the beatings if I truly resented them. At the very most, my love for my parents would allow me to forgive them, but I would still consider them unjust. As far as I can remember, all of my beatings have been just.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
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8/11/2009 7:57:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/9/2009 4:43:47 AM, feverish wrote:
I'm a parent who was battered as a small child and I don't agree with corporal punishment at all.

Obviously restraint and self-defense is allowed and I don't have a real problem with an occasional single smack or clip round the ear, I just wouldn't do it myself. Even with my nephew who is autistic spectrum and can have very extreme behaviour.

I sympathise with parents who lash out occasionally as parenting is very hard work but I think it should be avoided.

Parents who properly beat their kids, (especially if it is systematic or severe and especially if they think they are actually benefiting the kid) have psychological issues, lack parenting skills and in extreme cases should be prosecuted.

Not to intentionally turn the tables, but do you think that your negative experiences as a child might color your view of corporal punishment as a parenting tool? I won't pretend to know the reasons why you were "battered", but it doesn't seem to me that your punishments were a result of wanting to better you as a person, rather, just done out of pure anger.

I'm 20 now and just recently, I spoke to my mom about parenting. She explained that there was a lot more thinking involved in disciplinary beating than there was to just lashing out at a child, and that at the very root, there is always love. This was nothing new to me because after my punishment, I would always be told exactly why I was punished and exactly what I did wrong, in a supportive, yet stern way.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/12/2009 5:01:56 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/11/2009 7:52:05 PM, Kleptin wrote:
I never felt resentment at being beaten, thus, there is nothing to rationalize. It comes from understanding at an early age, WHY you are beaten. Resentment would only come from the idea that you are punished unjustly. For my parents' values and morals, the punishments fit the crime, and thus, they are justified. Insubordination, embarrassing my parents/making them lose face, bad test grades, etc.

I was mainly punished with smacks in the face and thin weaponry like chopsticks, never anything actually dangerous. Just enough to get the message through.

My love for my parents would definitely not be strong enough a psychological reason to rationalize the beatings if I truly resented them. At the very most, my love for my parents would allow me to forgive them, but I would still consider them unjust. As far as I can remember, all of my beatings have been just.

CHOPSTICKS! do you lot really believe a WORD this guy says?
The Cross.. the Cross.
I-am-a-panda
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8/12/2009 6:34:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Lol, your kids determine how you live when your 70+, so I suggest your pretty damn nice to your kids.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
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8/12/2009 8:05:10 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/12/2009 5:01:56 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
CHOPSTICKS! do you lot really believe a WORD this guy says?
I can envision them being quite painful. Be creative in your mental simulation, DAT.

On the whole, I doubt spanking is a necessary routine. I see it as an action more from frustration than from rationality.
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
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feverish
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8/12/2009 8:43:31 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/11/2009 7:57:39 PM, Kleptin wrote:


Not to intentionally turn the tables, but do you think that your negative experiences as a child might color your view of corporal punishment as a parenting tool?

Yes you're right, I'm sure that they do.

I won't pretend to know the reasons why you were "battered", but it doesn't seem to me that your punishments were a result of wanting to better you as a person, rather, just done out of pure anger.

To be fair corporal punishment as you describe it is very different from what happened to me.
I was hardly ever even smacked over the age of 5, (although my nan did used to lock me in the cellar but that's another story).

I still think there are much more humane and efficient ways to discipline your kids. As long as you are firm and apply consequences, assault shouldn't be necessary.
ToastOfDestiny
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8/12/2009 8:52:01 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/12/2009 8:05:10 AM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
On the whole, I doubt spanking is a necessary routine. I see it as an action more from frustration than from rationality.

Although, Kleptin's excerpt shows what I feel to be an acceptable example. I was spanked mostly out of anger (it seems, in retrospect).
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/12/2009 8:52:47 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/12/2009 5:01:56 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/11/2009 7:52:05 PM, Kleptin wrote:
I never felt resentment at being beaten, thus, there is nothing to rationalize. It comes from understanding at an early age, WHY you are beaten. Resentment would only come from the idea that you are punished unjustly. For my parents' values and morals, the punishments fit the crime, and thus, they are justified. Insubordination, embarrassing my parents/making them lose face, bad test grades, etc.

I was mainly punished with smacks in the face and thin weaponry like chopsticks, never anything actually dangerous. Just enough to get the message through.

My love for my parents would definitely not be strong enough a psychological reason to rationalize the beatings if I truly resented them. At the very most, my love for my parents would allow me to forgive them, but I would still consider them unjust. As far as I can remember, all of my beatings have been just.

CHOPSTICKS! do you lot really believe a WORD this guy says?

There seems to be no reason not to believe what he says, and his post would appear to be sympathetic to your argument?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Kleptin
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8/12/2009 8:13:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/12/2009 8:43:31 AM, feverish wrote:
I still think there are much more humane and efficient ways to discipline your kids. As long as you are firm and apply consequences, assault shouldn't be necessary.

Well, your position has just changed from "No" to "There are other alternatives". I myself don't find any particular reason to limit the way you discipline your children because I don't find the occasional smack to be dehumanizing or inhumane in even the slightest. Coloring the act with a word like "assault" doesn't make it assault.

A slap across the face when the kid is being disrespectful or selfish is probably one of the best ways to resolve the situation. Better if it is done in front of relatives as well. Being stern when facing a disrespectful child will only make you appear passive and talking too much will show the child that her activity is a way to garner attention. After a few warnings, you slap the child across the face and tell them that they are being disrespectful, causing you to lose face, and that selfish behavior is not acceptable in the household, further explaining why their specific actions were wrong.

Children listen pretty intently after they have been struck. I know I did. It's one of the only ways to keep them in line.

Attempting to be one of those parents who actively try to avoid striking their children no matter how terrible they are will have pretty bad consequences. They will eventually realize that you have a ceiling and that even at their worst, they won't be punished physically. This realization would probably come around middle school, when they get the brattiest. When they hit highschool, depending on how you raised them, they will show the fruits of your labor.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/13/2009 3:24:09 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I believe that if you establish firm boundaries from day one there is a good chance you will never need to employ corporal punishment. If however this is not sufficient then the discipline should consist of no more than an open hand slap, across the bum (never the head), intended to cause mild pain.

If you need to go beyond that then you have problems.

But then every age and culture has it's own ideas. My girlfriends grandad was hurled across the room as a child and he didn't turn out so bad!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
PervRat
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8/13/2009 2:45:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/9/2009 3:03:45 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
I'm not a parent but I am regularly entrusted to look after my six-year-old niece, my 13-year-old goddaughter and my seven young cousins who are aged between 3 and 16.

I must say, I have never smacked any of the girls but I do find disciplining a boy using a clip around the ear is often a more effective device than the persuasive arguments I employ on the girls.

Can you babysit my 8-year old niece? She's perfectly fine with responding to "Go to your room!" to running out the front door, slamming it and running to her friend's house in defiance.
PervRat
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8/13/2009 2:51:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Personally, I am sick and disgusted with how the people I have seen in this country raise their kids. I worked in grocery stores for several years and witnessed kids horseplaying with the riding carts for the disabled, driving them and playing bumper cars with them while disabled people hobbled around, unable to get access to one ... and all the while the parents were laughing and enjoying the fun rides the store was providing for their kids.

And look at obesity among kids ... really we could blame fat and sugar makers for the commercials they put out to convince kids how badly they want their product, but doesn't some responsibility also lie with the parents? Stores are not babysitters, and I think it is a /bad/ idea to bring your kid with you in the store. Its way too easy to let your own kid convince you to get something that isn't good for them and they already get too much of as it is.

This greedy capitalism I think also contributes to bullying, the notion that you are better than someone, therefore their well-being isn't worth considering. The wimpy geek is there for you to beat up on, you needn't think about fairness or justice -- those are evil socialist concepts!
Volkov
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8/13/2009 6:15:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/13/2009 2:51:59 PM, PervRat wrote:
This greedy capitalism I think also contributes to bullying, the notion that you are better than someone, therefore their well-being isn't worth considering. The wimpy geek is there for you to beat up on, you needn't think about fairness or justice -- those are evil socialist concepts!

Capitalism is not the blame for negligent and irresponsible parents, and kids that get out of control... socialism would not fix such tenets either. It is human nature for parents to favour their kids over others, and for kids to act out. It is up to others, someone like yourself, or a manager, or just a bystander, to snap the parents back to reality and say, "control your kids or you're out of here."

Anyways, on the topic... I don't really have an opinion either way. I was spanked when I was a child, and it did instill a little bit of discipline in me, but not enough to really make me behave 100% of the time. It isn't that effective in my mind.

But, how could you stop parents from initiating corporal punishment? Children have rights not to be hit, but parents have a duty to instill discipline, and at times I can see why corporal punishment is needed.

I guess it all comes down to the severity and frequency of the punishment. Are parents overdoing it, and when is the line drawn?
Kleptin
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8/13/2009 8:21:09 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/13/2009 2:45:42 PM, PervRat wrote:
At 8/9/2009 3:03:45 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
I'm not a parent but I am regularly entrusted to look after my six-year-old niece, my 13-year-old goddaughter and my seven young cousins who are aged between 3 and 16.

I must say, I have never smacked any of the girls but I do find disciplining a boy using a clip around the ear is often a more effective device than the persuasive arguments I employ on the girls.

Can you babysit my 8-year old niece? She's perfectly fine with responding to "Go to your room!" to running out the front door, slamming it and running to her friend's house in defiance.

That's why you catch her at the front door, pick her up, set her back down where you told her to "Go to your room", then say in a nice stern voice:

"Wrong door. Try again. Pick wrong this time, and you're going to get hit."

Follow through, repeat until she gets the message. You are in charge, not her. Children do not undermine the authority of their elders in that manner, especially not at that age.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
TheSkeptic
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8/14/2009 1:05:49 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Corporal punishment isn't always the best option. Psychologically speaking, it can very well damage or hurt a child (in ways more than just physical) - which is why the APA opposes it. I agree that corporal punishment can have it's advantages, if used properly and with moderation.

Often, there are many other ways that can even be more effective. Corporal punishment is just popular because it's easy to do and seems to get quick results.
feverish
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8/14/2009 10:31:39 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/12/2009 8:13:17 PM, Kleptin wrote:


Well, your position has just changed from "No" to "There are other alternatives".

My position has not changed in the slightest. (try re-reading my first post in this thread; "I don't have a real problem with an occasional single smack or clip round the ear")

For me personally as a parent it is an absolute no, for others I disapprove and advise against it but sympathise and pity rather than condemn.

I did not merely say there were "other alternatives" I said there were "much more humane and efficient ways to discipline your kids." Discipline is indeed necessary, violence is not.

I myself don't find any particular reason to limit the way you discipline your children because I don't find the occasional smack to be dehumanizing or inhumane in even the slightest. Coloring the act with a word like "assault" doesn't make it assault.

How is it not assault?

Assault is an intentional physical attack.
If you disrespect me and I smack you, that would surely be assault. As a grown man, you would at least be in a position to defend yourself.

A slap across the face when the kid is being disrespectful or selfish is probably one of the best ways to resolve the situation. Better if it is done in front of relatives as well. Being stern when facing a disrespectful child will only make you appear passive and talking too much will show the child that her activity is a way to garner attention. After a few warnings, you slap the child across the face and tell them that they are being disrespectful, causing you to lose face, and that selfish behavior is not acceptable in the household, further explaining why their specific actions were wrong.

What is this obsession with losing face?

Hitting because you are embarrassed sounds to me a lot like hitting in anger, rather than hitting to punish or correct harmful behaviour. It suggests emotional immaturity to be so concerned with how others perceive you and your family.

Children listen pretty intently after they have been struck. I know I did. It's one of the only ways to keep them in line.

Just because it is the only way you were kept in line does not mean there would not have been numerous much more effective approaches.

Children are physically, economically and emotionally dependant on their parents. A child can be physically restrained and kept in a 'naughty' place until they are sorry, all kinds of privileges can be withheld (toys, television, favoured food or activities) and the best solution of all is to reward good behaviour. This encourages your child (both consciously and unconsciously) to want to behave well and to please the parent rather than fearing them.

Attempting to be one of those parents who actively try to avoid striking their children no matter how terrible they are will have pretty bad consequences. They will eventually realize that you have a ceiling and that even at their worst, they won't be punished physically. This realization would probably come around middle school, when they get the brattiest. When they hit highschool, depending on how you raised them, they will show the fruits of your labor.

The parents who can't control their kids are the ones who are inconsistent and threaten punishments they do not carry out, whether they use corporal punishment or not.

My daughter is still young of course but although she is no angel, the threat of my disapproval is usually all it takes to put a stop to bad behaviour.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

If you read the Pros and Cons section of the Wiki article you will find a majority of studies concluded negative effects, a small minority found no effect and none for a positive effect of even occasional smacking.

I can provide plenty more anecdotal evidence but I don't expect to be able to alter your opinion.

Peace.

Above this post TheSkeptic wrote:

Corporal punishment isn't always the best option. Psychologically speaking, it can very well damage or hurt a child.

Often, there are many other ways that can even be more effective. Corporal punishment is just popular because it's easy to do and seems to get quick results.

Spot on.
Kleptin
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8/17/2009 9:03:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/14/2009 10:31:39 AM, feverish wrote:
For me personally as a parent it is an absolute no, for others I disapprove and advise against it but sympathise and pity rather than condemn.

Alright then, this is what I was confused about. I assumed that you were arguing exactly for your practice but you are not. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I just assumed and got confused.


I did not merely say there were "other alternatives" I said there were "much more humane and efficient ways to discipline your kids." Discipline is indeed necessary, violence is not.

Now we're just on semantics. What separates murder from warfare, the death penalty, or abortion? I define a smack to be discipline, and you see it to be violence. It falls under both definitions, but we just push it over to whichever side is best. For me, I don't see much difference between smacking a disobedient child and making an incision to perform surgery.

How is it not assault?

Assault is an intentional physical attack.
If you disrespect me and I smack you, that would surely be assault. As a grown man, you would at least be in a position to defend yourself.

Again, semantics. There's nothing of logical or philosophical substance here besides "Oh, it is defined as blahblah, therefore, it is wrong". You get too caught up over these designations. As I said, a surgical incision can also be defined as an intentional physical attack. Or for a better example, the Heimlich maneuver. We can spend all day going over the little details that make up the differences between how we view things, but that isn't productive in the slightest. If we want to see eye to eye instead of talk past each other, you're going to have to realize that pounding dictionaries is not necessarily the best way to go about making a moral argument.

What is this obsession with losing face?

You'll have to excuse me for growing up in a culture where the former generation is revered and almost worshiped. I come from a culture where rebellion and discord are considered the most terrible things that can possible occur, worse than famine or plague, and one where maintaining the values from one generation to the next bypasses the western philosophy of natural rights. I can see that our cultural differences are responsible for our difference in moral judgment. Can you?

Hitting because you are embarrassed sounds to me a lot like hitting in anger, rather than hitting to punish or correct harmful behaviour. It suggests emotional immaturity to be so concerned with how others perceive you and your family.

No, it suggests that your Western values of independence are different from my Eastern values of community and familial/social harmony. Please don't be so rash in passing judgment due to ignorance.

Just because it is the only way you were kept in line does not mean there would not have been numerous much more effective approaches.

Children are physically, economically and emotionally dependant on their parents. A child can be physically restrained and kept in a 'naughty' place until they are sorry, all kinds of privileges can be withheld (toys, television, favoured food or activities) and the best solution of all is to reward good behaviour. This encourages your child (both consciously and unconsciously) to want to behave well and to please the parent rather than fearing them.

This goes without saying. I'm not advocating a smack in the face whenever something goes wrong, I'm just saying that it shouldn't be ruled out if things really do go out of hand.

The parents who can't control their kids are the ones who are inconsistent and threaten punishments they do not carry out, whether they use corporal punishment or not.

Agreed, but this doesn't settle the question of why we need to go to extremes and limit disciplinary tools that serve as an effective punishment when all else fails.


My daughter is still young of course but although she is no angel, the threat of my disapproval is usually all it takes to put a stop to bad behaviour.

Wait a few years. Wait until she's old enough to realize that she can bypass many of your punishments. You can't get around a smack in the face. I don't think that this issue mattered much to you at the age of 13 or 14, but it did to me, because it was when my parents decided that they were going to stop punishing me physically and explain to me why it was important they did so. It made me curious and I observed how my friends were disciplined and how they turned out.

If you read the Pros and Cons section of the Wiki article you will find a majority of studies concluded negative effects, a small minority found no effect and none for a positive effect of even occasional smacking.

I read enough about these studies to know that none of them are reliable. I discovered this while trying to look into my own allegations, and regretfully, I don't have any data to back up my claims either. Child psychology studies simply have too many variables.

I can provide plenty more anecdotal evidence but I don't expect to be able to alter your opinion.

Peace.

That's because there is no objectivity or legitimacy to either of our claims. Just socially ingrained moral and ethical codes that stem from our respective cultures.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

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