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Normative and Positive Claims about Race

Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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6/3/2012 8:57:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There seems to be an interesting disagreement with various DDO users.

Namely, the idea that to state or endorse a positive claim necessarily implies a normative opinion on a subject.

For instance, if one says "This research shows a genetic different between black and white people establishing the category of "'race'" then necessarily a normative claim like "I dislike black people" follows.

While it tends to be the case that people who reference such material are more likely than the average person to endorse negative normative statements about blacks, it is self-evidently wrong to say normative necessarily follows positive.

For instance, say a statistician were trying to show there is no genetic difference between races, making the concept incoherent. To his utter dismay, the statistical results point to the opposite conclusion.

If this man reports his data, do we call it racism?

Of course not.

If you'd like to ignore users or dismiss their arguments, fine. But calling someone a bigot solely because they made a positive claim is an unfair stereotype (quite a hypocritical insult) that chills the ability of people to speak freely and gives ammunition to the real racists who use this kind of knee-jerk reaction to prove black people are antagonistic towards anyone who even talks about race.

It is destructive and demeans the true implications of the word.
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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6/3/2012 10:32:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think I know what you're talking about. But these positive statements don't come out of nowhere with no context. They beg the question why do you need to defend the positive statements unless you're making a normative statement.
yang.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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6/3/2012 10:33:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 10:32:16 PM, tulle wrote:
I think I know what you're talking about. But these positive statements don't come out of nowhere with no context. They beg the question why do you need to defend the positive statements unless you're making a normative statement.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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6/4/2012 12:45:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 10:32:16 PM, tulle wrote:
I think I know what you're talking about. But these positive statements don't come out of nowhere with no context. They beg the question why do you need to defend the positive statements unless you're making a normative statement.

I agree. As I like to say, "correlation may not be causation, but that makes it one hell of a coincidence."

However, the positive claim by itself should not warrant the label of bigotry. If context suggests a normative claim, then the issue changes.
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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6/4/2012 1:07:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 12:45:05 AM, Wnope wrote:

However, the positive claim by itself should not warrant the label of bigotry. If context suggests a normative claim, then the issue changes.

Sure, I agree with that.
yang.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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6/4/2012 1:50:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 1:40:35 AM, Wnope wrote:
Well, not to name names, but there are others who are a bit quick with the "bigot" label on this site.

Well, I'm sure that whoever they are, they'll eat up your bait, come right in here, and freak out on all three of us for acknowledging that presenting a study that evidences a discrete "racial" category based on biological information, such as multi-locus population genetics, is not necessarily bigoted, when it is presented under no context whatsoever, but to make the general statement that this evidence, and thus categorization, exists. ^_^
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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6/4/2012 1:53:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 1:50:59 AM, Ren wrote:
At 6/4/2012 1:40:35 AM, Wnope wrote:
Well, not to name names, but there are others who are a bit quick with the "bigot" label on this site.

Well, I'm sure that whoever they are, they'll eat up your bait, come right in here, and freak out on all three of us for acknowledging that presenting a study that evidences a discrete "racial" category based on biological information, such as multi-locus population genetics, is not necessarily bigoted, when it is presented under no context whatsoever, but to make the general statement that this evidence, and thus categorization, exists. ^_^

It helps me sleep at night.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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6/4/2012 2:01:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/4/2012 1:53:30 AM, Wnope wrote:
At 6/4/2012 1:50:59 AM, Ren wrote:
At 6/4/2012 1:40:35 AM, Wnope wrote:
Well, not to name names, but there are others who are a bit quick with the "bigot" label on this site.

Well, I'm sure that whoever they are, they'll eat up your bait, come right in here, and freak out on all three of us for acknowledging that presenting a study that evidences a discrete "racial" category based on biological information, such as multi-locus population genetics, is not necessarily bigoted, when it is presented under no context whatsoever, but to make the general statement that this evidence, and thus categorization, exists. ^_^

It helps me sleep at night.

It might be more effective to find those studies first, before you play with such daunting hypotheticals. xD
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/4/2012 10:39:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The problem with people who claim these statistics are proof of a GENETIC difference in regards to what they are measuring is that they aren't isolating the genetic variable.

All they can really show is that the members of one race tend to be different than members of another. Things other than genetics do play a part.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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6/4/2012 11:14:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 8:57:34 PM, Wnope wrote:
There seems to be an interesting disagreement with various DDO users.

Namely, the idea that to state or endorse a positive claim necessarily implies a normative opinion on a subject.

For instance, if one says "This research shows a genetic different between black and white people establishing the category of "'race'" then necessarily a normative claim like "I dislike black people" follows.

While it tends to be the case that people who reference such material are more likely than the average person to endorse negative normative statements about blacks, it is self-evidently wrong to say normative necessarily follows positive.

For instance, say a statistician were trying to show there is no genetic difference between races, making the concept incoherent. To his utter dismay, the statistical results point to the opposite conclusion.

If this man reports his data, do we call it racism?

Of course not.

If you'd like to ignore users or dismiss their arguments, fine. But calling someone a bigot solely because they made a positive claim is an unfair stereotype (quite a hypocritical insult) that chills the ability of people to speak freely and gives ammunition to the real racists who use this kind of knee-jerk reaction to prove black people are antagonistic towards anyone who even talks about race.

It is destructive and demeans the true implications of the word.

Pff. Bigot.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
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Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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6/4/2012 11:46:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think this bias extends far into other areas of discourse as well. For example, people who support highly individualistic rights almost always support the supremacy of Austrian economics. Now it's would be nice if both of those were true, but they're independent claims and one being true doesn't affect the likelihood of the other. I think it ties into Kleptins post the other day about people biasing themselves hopelessly by adopting a particular viewpoint and then filtering all the information they receive through that viewpoint.