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Rights V's What's Right

brian_eggleston
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8/24/2009 7:36:17 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2009 6:27:43 AM, Bible8910 wrote:
What is more important Rights or What's right?

'What's right' and 'rights' are both subjective.

For example, a paedophile might say that he has the 'right' to have consensual sex with a child whereas most people would agree that that is not 'right' and it therefore shouldn't be 'a right'...if you see what I mean!
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I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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8/24/2009 7:46:00 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2009 7:36:17 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 8/24/2009 6:27:43 AM, Bible8910 wrote:
What is more important Rights or What's right?

'What's right' and 'rights' are both subjective.

For example, a paedophile might say that he has the 'right' to have consensual sex with a child whereas most people would agree that that is not 'right' and it therefore shouldn't be 'a right'...if you see what I mean!

Good example Eggleston.

Rights:

- To have consensual sex with someone 17 or over
- Not to be intentionally harmed

Because Morals (What is and isn't right) is defined by rights, it is Immoral for paedophile to have sex with a child.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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8/24/2009 8:10:48 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Not to echo what others say in this thread, but:

"Rights define what is right, not necessarily what is just. Establishing what is just involves balance rights claims, which is to imply rights conflict: my right to property versus yours, your right to privacy versus the public's right to know, and so on."
- Michael Ignatieff, The Rights Revolution

Basically, you can only establish "what is right" (in this case I take to mean from the OP, what is just) when you have conflict between two entities and their rights. A parents right to discipline, vs. a child's right not to be harmed, for instance; it is clear that both have worth to their rights claims, and in order to find a just solution, you must compromise and settle differences, a process that is made all the much easier by rights, because when both sides recognize that each other have valid concerns, you can avoid coercion, violence and etc.

So rights help define "what's right" (what is just).

I'll come back to this later; I'm a little pressed for time right now! But good topic anyways.
Bible8910
Posts: 17
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8/24/2009 5:28:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Rights are something that we give to people with out giving thought to weather it is right or wrong. Like a person given the right to open a XXX movie house,and many other like rights.

What's Right on the other hand is based on something that a person does in life that is not wrong,and is good for all of mankind. Like helping the homeless and other things that benefit people for the good of all of mankind.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/24/2009 5:57:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2009 5:28:25 PM, Bible8910 wrote:
Rights are something that we give to people with out giving thought to weather it is right or wrong. Like a person given the right to open a XXX movie house,and many other like rights.

That would be an equivocation on rights from the first post. Rights are not granted, they are either recognised or not. Rights detail freedom of action in social contexts - i.e. negative claims of action - what can't be done to you and likewise what prohibits you from enacting to others. A right to open a porn movie house, if you wish to use the term rights, details a person is free to set up that business on their property without force being enacted upon them by others.

What's Right on the other hand is based on something that a person does in life that is not wrong,and is good for all of mankind. Like helping the homeless and other things that benefit people for the good of all of mankind.

That's just a form of altruistic utilitarianism. Helping the homeless, helps that individual you helped, not the world, and the needy are not a valid claim on ones productive worth. What is right, relates to the self, one's life is the standard upon which 'is this good' is what ones reason is applied to. The specific thing you wish to obtain will determine the right course of action to take.
Floid
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8/25/2009 11:21:08 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
What is more important Rights or What's right?

Rights are more important. Why? Because "What is right" is subjective and varies from person to person. So within a few well thought out and logical contraints (such as one person's rights don't include infringing on anothers rights), it is more important the we preserve people's right than enforce what one views as "right".

This is why the right to life, liberty and persuit of happiness are enumerated as inalienable rights. It is wrong for one person to interfere with another persons rights. But past that, what you view as "right" is merely subjective morality that has no effect on you when another person disagrees or does not follow it.
I-am-a-panda
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8/25/2009 11:27:42 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2009 5:28:25 PM, Bible8910 wrote:
Rights are something that we give to people with out giving thought to weather it is right or wrong. Like a person given the right to open a XXX movie house,and many other like rights.

What's Right on the other hand is based on something that a person does in life that is not wrong,and is good for all of mankind. Like helping the homeless and other things that benefit people for the good of all of mankind.

They don't contradict each other. They can co-exist.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/29/2009 3:56:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
THAT's one of the main problems with society: everyone's after their 'rights'..
When we focus on our 'rights' we forget our RESPONSIBILITIES..
Rights are what we 'demand' or what we take..
Responsibilities are what we honour.. what we invest in.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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8/29/2009 6:15:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/29/2009 3:56:35 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
THAT's one of the main problems with society: everyone's after their 'rights'..
When we focus on our 'rights' we forget our RESPONSIBILITIES..
Rights are what we 'demand' or what we take..
Responsibilities are what we honour.. what we invest in.

This is the kind of vision that is the cause of so many ruined lives.

Responsibilities are all well and fine, but they cannot take the place of "rights." Responsibilities dictate that no matter what your emotions, what your situation, what you want to do, which leads to unhappiness, unfairness and in the end, a life wasted, ruined and destroyed.

Rights, on the other hand, help people realize that the other person/group/whatever has needs of their own, which intensifies the commitment to work together towards that common goal. If both sides respect the other's rights, the happier both sides will be; the more intense the commitment will be; the better life will be. Forced commitment to something only creates animosity - voluntary commitment creates respect.
DATCMOTO
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8/31/2009 7:48:25 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/29/2009 6:15:22 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 8/29/2009 3:56:35 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
THAT's one of the main problems with society: everyone's after their 'rights'..
When we focus on our 'rights' we forget our RESPONSIBILITIES..
Rights are what we 'demand' or what we take..
Responsibilities are what we honour.. what we invest in.

This is the kind of vision that is the cause of so many ruined lives.

Responsibilities are all well and fine, but they cannot take the place of "rights." Responsibilities dictate that no matter what your emotions, what your situation, what you want to do, which leads to unhappiness, unfairness and in the end, a life wasted, ruined and destroyed.

Oh NO! not unhappiness! we MUST feel good ALL the time: food, drugs, sex, tv, movies, food, tv, sex, etc etc..

Rights, on the other hand, help people realize that the other person/group/whatever has needs of their own, which intensifies the commitment to work together towards that common goal. If both sides respect the other's rights, the happier both sides will be; the more intense the commitment will be; the better life will be. Forced commitment to something only creates animosity - voluntary commitment creates respect.

Rights ARE forced commitment: responsibilties are a personal choice.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Ragnar_Rahl
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8/31/2009 7:52:20 AM
Posted: 7 years ago

Rights, on the other hand, help people realize that the other person/group/whatever has needs of their own, which intensifies the commitment to work together towards that common goal. If both sides respect the other's rights, the happier both sides will be; the more intense the commitment will be; the better life will be. Forced commitment to something only creates animosity - voluntary commitment creates respect.

Rights ARE forced commitment: responsibilties are a personal choice.
It's bad to have a forced commitment to not kill and not steal?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DATCMOTO
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8/31/2009 8:30:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/31/2009 7:52:20 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:

Rights, on the other hand, help people realize that the other person/group/whatever has needs of their own, which intensifies the commitment to work together towards that common goal. If both sides respect the other's rights, the happier both sides will be; the more intense the commitment will be; the better life will be. Forced commitment to something only creates animosity - voluntary commitment creates respect.

Rights ARE forced commitment: responsibilties are a personal choice.
It's bad to have a forced commitment to not kill and not steal?

As an adopted son of God (a Christian) it is my responsibility to follow Gods laws..
As a fallen and inherently evil society women now DEMAND their RIGHT to murder their unborn children: do you see the difference?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Ragnar_Rahl
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8/31/2009 3:29:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/31/2009 8:30:24 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/31/2009 7:52:20 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:

Rights, on the other hand, help people realize that the other person/group/whatever has needs of their own, which intensifies the commitment to work together towards that common goal. If both sides respect the other's rights, the happier both sides will be; the more intense the commitment will be; the better life will be. Forced commitment to something only creates animosity - voluntary commitment creates respect.

Rights ARE forced commitment: responsibilties are a personal choice.
It's bad to have a forced commitment to not kill and not steal?

As an adopted son of God (a Christian) it is my responsibility to follow Gods laws..
As a fallen and inherently evil society women now DEMAND their RIGHT to murder their unborn children: do you see the difference?

God approves of taking up residence inside another person's body without their permission?

Oh wait, Mary, and the Holy Spirit thing, and leaving the enemy women alive for obvious purposes, and creating all life including parasites. Nvm. :)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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8/31/2009 3:30:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Oh, but nvm the nvm. Honor thy mother and father, including if they tell you to GTFO.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DATCMOTO
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8/31/2009 4:49:06 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/31/2009 3:29:44 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/31/2009 8:30:24 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/31/2009 7:52:20 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:

Rights, on the other hand, help people realize that the other person/group/whatever has needs of their own, which intensifies the commitment to work together towards that common goal. If both sides respect the other's rights, the happier both sides will be; the more intense the commitment will be; the better life will be. Forced commitment to something only creates animosity - voluntary commitment creates respect.

Rights ARE forced commitment: responsibilties are a personal choice.
It's bad to have a forced commitment to not kill and not steal?

As an adopted son of God (a Christian) it is my responsibility to follow Gods laws..
As a fallen and inherently evil society women now DEMAND their RIGHT to murder their unborn children: do you see the difference?

God approves of taking up residence inside another person's body without their permission?

Oh wait, Mary, and the Holy Spirit thing, and leaving the enemy women alive for obvious purposes, and creating all life including parasites. Nvm. :)

Are you ok? you seem kinda down..

(and parasites came with the fall.. *sorry*)
The Cross.. the Cross.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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8/31/2009 5:13:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Predators are morally equivalent to parasites given the same food source no? Yet, snakes predated (indeed one encouraged) the fall no? :)

And what do you mean about the down?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DATCMOTO
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8/31/2009 5:22:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/31/2009 5:13:21 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Predators are morally equivalent to parasites given the same food source no? Yet, snakes predated (indeed one encouraged) the fall no? :)

But snakes (or any other animal) were not predatory before the fall..

And what do you mean about the down?

You seem out of sorts is all.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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8/31/2009 5:30:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/31/2009 5:22:01 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/31/2009 5:13:21 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Predators are morally equivalent to parasites given the same food source no? Yet, snakes predated (indeed one encouraged) the fall no? :)

But snakes (or any other animal) were not predatory before the fall..
In order to live, a snake must eat meat. There's no other way to slice it. Obligatory carnivore. Unlike cats, which just go blind for the sin if you will of trying to be vgetarian, snakes just don't really eat veggies. :)



And what do you mean about the down?

You seem out of sorts is all.
That's a synonym, not a justification.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DATCMOTO
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8/31/2009 5:36:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/31/2009 5:30:51 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/31/2009 5:22:01 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/31/2009 5:13:21 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Predators are morally equivalent to parasites given the same food source no? Yet, snakes predated (indeed one encouraged) the fall no? :)

But snakes (or any other animal) were not predatory before the fall..
In order to live, a snake must eat meat. There's no other way to slice it. Obligatory carnivore. Unlike cats, which just go blind for the sin if you will of trying to be vgetarian, snakes just don't really eat veggies. :)

But we are talking pre-fall.. and we are talking within the confines of 'If the Bible be true'.. well, the Bible clearly states that creatures became carniverous only after the fall. And in the new Earth the 'Lion will lay with the Lamb'.. again.



And what do you mean about the down?

You seem out of sorts is all.
That's a synonym, not a justification.

And you use semantics yet again to avoid the question: But if you're ok or don't want to talk about it, that's fine.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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8/31/2009 5:38:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/31/2009 5:36:21 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/31/2009 5:30:51 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/31/2009 5:22:01 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/31/2009 5:13:21 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Predators are morally equivalent to parasites given the same food source no? Yet, snakes predated (indeed one encouraged) the fall no? :)

But snakes (or any other animal) were not predatory before the fall..
In order to live, a snake must eat meat. There's no other way to slice it. Obligatory carnivore. Unlike cats, which just go blind for the sin if you will of trying to be vgetarian, snakes just don't really eat veggies. :)

But we are talking pre-fall.. and we are talking within the confines of 'If the Bible be true'.. well, the Bible clearly states that creatures became carniverous only after the fall. And in the new Earth the 'Lion will lay with the Lamb'.. again.
If the bible were true, some remnant of the ancestral veggie eating ability would likely be around to bear witness. It most certainly isn't. :)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/31/2009 5:51:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/31/2009 5:38:41 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/31/2009 5:36:21 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/31/2009 5:30:51 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/31/2009 5:22:01 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/31/2009 5:13:21 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Predators are morally equivalent to parasites given the same food source no? Yet, snakes predated (indeed one encouraged) the fall no? :)

But snakes (or any other animal) were not predatory before the fall..
In order to live, a snake must eat meat. There's no other way to slice it. Obligatory carnivore. Unlike cats, which just go blind for the sin if you will of trying to be vgetarian, snakes just don't really eat veggies. :)

But we are talking pre-fall.. and we are talking within the confines of 'If the Bible be true'.. well, the Bible clearly states that creatures became carnivorous only after the fall. And in the new Earth the 'Lion will lay with the Lamb'.. again.
If the bible were true, some remnant of the ancestral veggie eating ability would likely be around to bear witness. It most certainly isn't. :)

Who said they ate vegetables? I believe the garden of Eden and the 'fruits of the trees' were Spiritual and so allegorical..
The Cross.. the Cross.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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8/31/2009 6:02:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
So what did they eat? Surely you aren't telling me you can live without metabolism, i.e. live without one of the traits of life?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DATCMOTO
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8/31/2009 6:07:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/31/2009 6:02:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
So what did they eat? Surely you aren't telling me you can live without metabolism, i.e. live without one of the traits of life?

Spiritual things: Joy.. peace.. tranquility.. Basically eating the attributes of God.. which is what we do symbolically in holy communion.. and will do for real in heaven.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/1/2009 8:49:16 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Joy peace and tranquility (btw joy and tranquility contradict, joy is a happiness that is very untranquil) all have zero calories.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Kleptin
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9/1/2009 8:55:01 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
How will we eat in heaven without mouths, teeth, tongues, throats, stomachs, etc.?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
DATCMOTO
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9/1/2009 9:07:26 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/1/2009 8:49:16 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Joy peace and tranquility (btw joy and tranquility contradict, joy is a happiness that is very untranquil) all have zero calories.

You keep thinking FINITELY with your FINITE brain and FINITE mind!
And Spiritual fruit such as peace and joy can be enjoyed separately as they are localized in separate 'trees' etc..
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
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9/1/2009 9:14:25 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/1/2009 8:55:01 AM, Kleptin wrote:
How will we eat in heaven without mouths, teeth, tongues, throats, stomachs, etc.?
*less than 24 hrs after stating he will only communicate with me via debates.. a new record!*

Well, Eric.. We will have all of those things as we, sorry I mean I, have been promised a new body on a new Earth.
We may only speculate as to the substance (or lack of) of these things.

May I cast your mind back to the whole 'can't burn in hell debacle'?
Where you first lost the plot.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/2/2009 7:55:27 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/1/2009 9:07:26 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/1/2009 8:49:16 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Joy peace and tranquility (btw joy and tranquility contradict, joy is a happiness that is very untranquil) all have zero calories.

You keep thinking FINITELY with your FINITE brain and FINITE mind!

Because real is another word for saying within the LIMITS of reality.\
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.