Total Posts:19|Showing Posts:1-19
Jump to topic:

Is routine circumcision tourture?

vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/19/2012 7:04:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Is the surgery in this video an act of torture. Circumcision is performed on over 60 percent of newborns in the U.S.. 96 percent of doctors in the U.S. don't use anesthetics.

The act in this video would be illegal to perform on terrorists in an effort to extract information from them. If genital mutilation had been performed on Osama bin Laden himself, his torturer would be hauled off to The Hague for war crimes.

Though circumcision began a religious ritual - a watered down version of a human sacrifice with the foreskin serving as a replacement for the victim's life - it emerged in the 19Th century as a curative for masturbation - the torment of the procedure noted as being the actual cure.

Over the decades, the medical community has advanced a plethora of diseases circumcision is supposed to prevent; some of which are quite bizarre by modern standards such as epilepsy. The current diseases circumcision are said to prevent are cancer and HIV.

However, no national or international medical association recommends routine circumcision. Also, Western countries with really low circumcision rates don't have more occurrences of these diseases than the US.

So if circumcision is the torture of infants, how is it that civilized people people still inflict it on their young. One explanation may have to do with the fact that hospitals make billions of dollars a year by obtaining and selling foreskins. Another theory (which I find particularly interesting) is the idea that people may be inclined to ignore the fact that we have this institution of circumcision in place, brutalizing our own children for no reason, and we, as a society, don't want to look it in the face. So we ignore it, content with the week medical justifications offered for it by medial authorities - so it continues.

So what do you think. Can routine circumcision of infants be justified. If not, then it must be admitted that we routinely torture our newborns as circumcision is one of the most brutal forms of torture one can imagine. Please discuss. Also, if you are inclined, please read and vote on the debate I had with GCT regarding this subject. Thanks.

http://www.debate.org...
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/19/2012 7:20:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm not watching that video - I already went through it anyway. Torture implies an intent. Without that intent it is not torture.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/19/2012 7:29:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why are you obsessed with this topic? Here: [http://www.debate.org...]
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/19/2012 8:39:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The process of being born must be even more traumatic. It should be forbidden.

It is well known that serving *cold* milk with the cookies to a terrorist is a violation of the Geneva conventions and an intolerable infringement of human rights.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/19/2012 8:39:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 8:39:12 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
The process of being born must be even more traumatic. It should be forbidden.

It is well known that serving *cold* milk with the cookies to a terrorist is a violation of the Geneva conventions and an intolerable infringement of human rights.

These are pretty bad arguments . . .
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/19/2012 11:18:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 7:29:35 PM, MouthWash wrote:
Why are you obsessed with this topic? Here: [http://www.debate.org...]

Because it's immoral to torture babies.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/20/2012 12:00:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 7:20:19 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I'm not watching that video - I already went through it anyway. Torture implies an intent. Without that intent it is not torture.

Ragnar_Rahl made a similar point once. However, Collins English Dictionary supports my usage:

1. to cause extreme physical pain to, esp in order to extract information, break resistance, etc: to torture prisoners

As does Random House:
2 to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me.

Websters supports my usage as well.
1
a : anguish of body or mind : agony
b : something that causes agony or pain

Here are some examples of the word being used in the sense I use it.

http://www.npr.org...
http://www.vanityfair.com...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/20/2012 4:00:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you type "define torture" into google, the main entry is:

"The action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or in order to force them to do or say something."

As a punishment

or

to force them to do something.

It doesn't make any sense to say that merely inflicting pain is torture. I could create a slew of examples where pain is inflicted but it would be nonsensical to call it torture. Medical procedures, for example, that aren't controversial like circumcision, are not by any stretch of the word torture.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/20/2012 4:08:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Your examples are, quite frankly, terrible. The first link is being colorful, the second doesn't contain the word at all, and the third is clearly rhetorical in nature. If I just exclaim randomly "my back is torturing me" it doesn't mean it's some grand example of the definition of the term!

You can say the doctors are misguided, or even completely wrong. You can say the infants go through terrible pain. You can call that pain "torturous." But you can't say that doctors are torturing babies. To say that implies that the doctors are effectively inflicting pain on infants purposefully and maliciously, for some mysterious motive, and deceiving parents into thinking the procedure is beneficial when they understand that it isn't.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
NobodyMove
Posts: 1
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/20/2012 4:51:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
@R0b1Billion
Torture has many definitions. The definition which you provided was just one of them. Google itself also defines torture in many ways, one being (the noun form) :
"Great physical or mental suffering or anxiety."

And another being (the verb form) :
"Inflict severe pain on (someone)."

So, we are in fact, torturing (inflicting severe pain on) newborns by forcing them to go through the process.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2012 9:33:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 11:18:37 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 8/19/2012 7:29:35 PM, MouthWash wrote:
Why are you obsessed with this topic? Here: [http://www.debate.org...]

Because it's immoral to torture babies.

I feel like it has more to do with your over zealous hate for all things religion.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2012 9:44:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The baby tortured the mom for 9 months, and really tortured her on its birthday.

At that point I'd say circumcision is fair.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2012 9:45:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/21/2012 9:44:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The baby tortured the mom for 9 months, and really tortured her on its birthday.

At that point I'd say circumcision is fair.

Not to mention the next 18 years, maybe more.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/21/2012 10:47:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/20/2012 4:51:20 AM, NobodyMove wrote:
@R0b1Billion
Torture has many definitions. The definition which you provided was just one of them. Google itself also defines torture in many ways, one being (the noun form) :
"Great physical or mental suffering or anxiety."

And another being (the verb form) :
"Inflict severe pain on (someone)."

So, we are in fact, torturing (inflicting severe pain on) newborns by forcing them to go through the process.

"You're torturing me with your stupidity."

Does this usage prove that I can use torture in this matter?

Torture has a MORAL element. That element must be derived from intent. If medical professionals cause me pain by giving me rabies vaccines after being bit by a bat, not even the most foolish of people would describe that activity as torture.

Ever since I started using DDO, I have been appalled at the average person's ability to use a dictionary. If the people I'm conversing with cannot even define the terms they are using with any accuracy at all, it really makes no sense that they'd be able to argue.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
1dustpelt
Posts: 1,970
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/22/2012 3:39:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Half the people saying this are the ones that are Pro abortion, some even late term.
-____________-

Fetuses can feel pain you know.
Wall of LOL
"Infanticide is justified as long as the infants are below two" ~ RoyalPaladin
"Promoting female superiority is the only way to establish equality." ~ RoyalPaladin
"Jury trials should be banned. They're nothing more than opportunities for racists to destroy lives." ~ RoyalPaladin after the Zimmerman Trial.
1dustpelt
Posts: 1,970
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/22/2012 3:40:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/19/2012 8:39:46 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 8/19/2012 8:39:12 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
The process of being born must be even more traumatic. It should be forbidden.

It is well known that serving *cold* milk with the cookies to a terrorist is a violation of the Geneva conventions and an intolerable infringement of human rights.

These are pretty bad arguments . . .

She claims to be against torturing babies yet is the same one who supports infanticide of 2 year olds. -______-
Wall of LOL
"Infanticide is justified as long as the infants are below two" ~ RoyalPaladin
"Promoting female superiority is the only way to establish equality." ~ RoyalPaladin
"Jury trials should be banned. They're nothing more than opportunities for racists to destroy lives." ~ RoyalPaladin after the Zimmerman Trial.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2012 4:39:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You know, I used to be pretty undecided on this issue but then I realized that most of the issues pro-cutters bring up can easily be resolved by proper hygiene. If a man isn't cleaning down there he's pretty lazy and I do have to say it's his own damn fault if he gets some kind of infection.
HardAssJack
Posts: 26
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/28/2014 12:33:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/20/2012 4:00:07 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
If you type "define torture" into google, the main entry is:

"The action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or in order to force them to do or say something."

As a punishment

or

to force them to do something.

It doesn't make any sense to say that merely inflicting pain is torture. I could create a slew of examples where pain is inflicted but it would be nonsensical to call it torture. Medical procedures, for example, that aren't controversial like circumcision, are not by any stretch of the word torture.

It is not uncommon in some wars for soldiers to sexually torture their male enemy captives. But usually this takes place in the manner of beating the testicles of the poor man and attaching electrodes to them and to his penis.

So no: circumcision is not torture
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2014 9:06:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/28/2014 12:33:18 PM, HardAssJack wrote:
At 8/20/2012 4:00:07 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
If you type "define torture" into google, the main entry is:

"The action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or in order to force them to do or say something."

As a punishment

or

to force them to do something.

It doesn't make any sense to say that merely inflicting pain is torture. I could create a slew of examples where pain is inflicted but it would be nonsensical to call it torture. Medical procedures, for example, that aren't controversial like circumcision, are not by any stretch of the word torture.

It is not uncommon in some wars for soldiers to sexually torture their male enemy captives. But usually this takes place in the manner of beating the testicles of the poor man and attaching electrodes to them and to his penis.

So no: circumcision is not torture

I had... forgotten about that example 0_o

Yes he is a poor, poor man indeed.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.