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Is growth of Islam in the West good or bad?

Dirty.Harry
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12/6/2012 10:46:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Mirza and I have disgreed on this in a separate thread:

http://www.debate.org...

since that thread is really about a question asked about Women and Islam, I'm starting this new one specifically about a question I have been exploring for the past four or five years.

Many people in the UK, US and EU are not directly immersed in the growth of Islam and the growth of Muslim populations (either through births or immigration) and in my experience do as I once did - namely lean toward a liberal acceptance and tolerance because this underpins our own societies in this day and age.

My view today is rather different because I returned from the US (after ten years away) to the UK a few years ago (for two years) and lived in the heart of an English City that has seen an incredible degree of immigration from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc over the past fifty years.

I was frankly shocked by what I saw and over the course of my two year stay began to form the view that the growth of Islam and mass immigration from Muslim countries is ultimately bad for the indigenous people.

I lived in Birmingham in the UK - once the center of the industrial revolution.

Rather than list the many negative things I saw, I will stop here and see what other have to say about this question.

Harry.
royalpaladin
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12/6/2012 11:29:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It is only a threat if they start imposing religious laws on others. I have no problem with Muslims practicing their faith privately or even having public parades or whatever on holidays. As long as they are not imposing laws on me, it really is not a big deal.

The funny thing about the Sharia Law courts is that the British forced them onto the Muslim when they originally invaded India, and now the hardliners want these courts in place even though they distinguish them from the rest of the population.

Islam is a Western religion, by the way.
Dirty.Harry
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12/6/2012 12:21:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 11:29:49 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
It is only a threat if they start imposing religious laws on others. I have no problem with Muslims practicing their faith privately or even having public parades or whatever on holidays. As long as they are not imposing laws on me, it really is not a big deal.

Well there is always the threat that that might one day happen. I'm not discussing threats as such though, but the actual effect on the quality of life of non-Muslims when Islam becomes a force within a local community or even city. Are you saying that an ideology and its adherents can only cause you harm if they impose laws on you?

The funny thing about the Sharia Law courts is that the British forced them onto the Muslim when they originally invaded India, and now the hardliners want these courts in place even though they distinguish them from the rest of the population.

That may be true but Sharia has no place in the UK or the US and those who advocate it are seeking to undermine the rule of law.

Islam is a Western religion, by the way.

Pedantry, it did not originate in Western Europe, Britain or North America, nor has it ever been dominant there (yet)

Harry.
darkkermit
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12/6/2012 12:45:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 10:46:28 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Mirza and I have disgreed on this in a separate thread:

http://www.debate.org...

since that thread is really about a question asked about Women and Islam, I'm starting this new one specifically about a question I have been exploring for the past four or five years.

Many people in the UK, US and EU are not directly immersed in the growth of Islam and the growth of Muslim populations (either through births or immigration) and in my experience do as I once did - namely lean toward a liberal acceptance and tolerance because this underpins our own societies in this day and age.

My view today is rather different because I returned from the US (after ten years away) to the UK a few years ago (for two years) and lived in the heart of an English City that has seen an incredible degree of immigration from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc over the past fifty years.

I was frankly shocked by what I saw and over the course of my two year stay began to form the view that the growth of Islam and mass immigration from Muslim countries is ultimately bad for the indigenous people.

I lived in Birmingham in the UK - once the center of the industrial revolution.

Rather than list the many negative things I saw, I will stop here and see what other have to say about this question.

Harry.

Can you be more specific about you were "shocked" about? What specifically was bad about a large muslim population?
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Mirza
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12/6/2012 1:23:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'll let the thing in your skull figure out whether it's good or bad.

Nonetheless. The growth of Islam won't be prevented anytime soon, so the best thing you can do is (1) weep your soul to death, or (2) accept the reality.

Are you sad to see this happen? Good! A disturbed person like you should have NO mercy when being dealt with. See you in the 2050's Europe, Ma'am.
Dirty.Harry
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12/6/2012 1:49:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 12:45:23 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/6/2012 10:46:28 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Mirza and I have disgreed on this in a separate thread:

http://www.debate.org...

since that thread is really about a question asked about Women and Islam, I'm starting this new one specifically about a question I have been exploring for the past four or five years.

Many people in the UK, US and EU are not directly immersed in the growth of Islam and the growth of Muslim populations (either through births or immigration) and in my experience do as I once did - namely lean toward a liberal acceptance and tolerance because this underpins our own societies in this day and age.

My view today is rather different because I returned from the US (after ten years away) to the UK a few years ago (for two years) and lived in the heart of an English City that has seen an incredible degree of immigration from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc over the past fifty years.

I was frankly shocked by what I saw and over the course of my two year stay began to form the view that the growth of Islam and mass immigration from Muslim countries is ultimately bad for the indigenous people.

I lived in Birmingham in the UK - once the center of the industrial revolution.

Rather than list the many negative things I saw, I will stop here and see what other have to say about this question.

Harry.

Can you be more specific about you were "shocked" about? What specifically was bad about a large muslim population?

Of course, the shock arises from the degree of increased visibility even intrusion of Islam and the passive decline of traditional English characteristics once taken for granted by someone living in England.

Sparkbrook is a locality that is now dominated by Pakistani culture, once an old fashioned established English town littered with Church buildings, Gothic and Victorian houses and civic buildings.

The high streets are almost exclusively Pakistani with Halal butchers, Pakistani eateries, grocery stores, signage in Urdu, almost all of the employment is Muslim with a known preference for hiring only Muslims.

Most of the older smaller pubs are gone because the proporion of non-Muslims has fallen as immigration has proceeded, liqour stores are gone too.

Many stores are staffed by people who speak poor English and often when waiting inline to pay you hear staff and customers speaking in Udru or some other language, increasing the feeling of alienation further.

Taking a walk around Sparkbrook is shocking for me and many, it has changed beyond all recognition, traces of older established families and people are all but gone.

Doctors - I took visits to my doctor in another area and found that I was the only English person there, in the waiting room were some 25+ people from all parts of the globe - advice posters and information is written in 20 languages, speaking to other people waiting - a normal thing for an Englishman - is rarely fruitful because of language/cultural differences.

Taxis - Birmingham has a long established system of Taxis but nowadays very very few are driven by indigenous Brits. Many drivers are rude and refuse to assist a lone female passnger with bags/cases. Once my own wife (who is American) was simply unable to get a taxi at around 8pm after some shopping near her office becauise - guess? - it was Ramadan and there were virtualy no taxis around at all, she eventually found one out of pure luck but was stranded for a time late at night on her own.

Once when shopping I was repeatedly pushed and shoved by a group of three women wearing burqas or niqabs, I know why - in their home countries this kind of rough pushing to get what one wants from a shelf is the norm - but it is very rude in England, yet they care not.

Many churches are now Mosques, one sees alien languages and Arabic slogans and graffiti on non-Muslim buildings.

Those indigenous Brits that remain in these areas who have kids are forced to see that the schools are dominated by Islam and other alien cultures, many schools emphasize the importance of alien cultures and seek to indoctrinate non-Muslims to accept and "respect" Islam or Sikhism. Most schools books are written with three or more languages and few kids have English as their first language.

Apart from these day to day observations and experiences, I heard often and read often of further issues, like how some blind people with guide dogs are refused a bus ride (because some Muslims have an irrational loathing of dogs), I heard of a local shop which was harassed because it had a police safety poster in which the pictuure showed an officer and a police dog.

I heard of several cases of Muslim eomployees of larger grocery chains refusing to go near or touch boxes/creates that contain alcohol and attempts to discipline or dismiss them were thwarted by the sheer prevalance of Islam in the local community and legal system.

Many local political leaders are Muslims and can fail to act impartially when residents requests cause a conflict with their Islamic principles.

There is a constant stream of stories large and small that show how Islam is divisive, inflexible, unyielding and how generally good natured, kind, tolerent indigenous people have been taken for granted.

Harry.
Dirty.Harry
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12/6/2012 1:50:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 1:25:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
And please, wash your keyboard when spelling my name 100 times in a post. Or at least, show some respect when writing it.

Says the boy who keep calling me Ma'm.

Harry.
Dirty.Harry
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12/6/2012 1:52:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 1:23:53 PM, Mirza wrote:
I'll let the thing in your skull figure out whether it's good or bad.

Nonetheless. The growth of Islam won't be prevented anytime soon, so the best thing you can do is (1) weep your soul to death, or (2) accept the reality.

Or speak frankly with facts and figures on a public debating forum to dismantle the fabrications of people like you Mirza.

Are you sad to see this happen? Good! A disturbed person like you should have NO mercy when being dealt with. See you in the 2050's Europe, Ma'am.

Didn't take long for the "No mercy" slogan to slip out did it sony?

Harry.
MouthWash
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12/6/2012 2:04:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 11:29:49 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
It is only a threat if they start imposing religious laws on others. I have no problem with Muslims practicing their faith privately or even having public parades or whatever on holidays. As long as they are not imposing laws on me, it really is not a big deal.

The funny thing about the Sharia Law courts is that the British forced them onto the Muslim when they originally invaded India, and now the hardliners want these courts in place even though they distinguish them from the rest of the population.

The British are obviously hypocrites for not wanting Sharia law implemented when they enforced them in India a few hundred years ago. Yep, they're just getting what they deserve!
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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12/7/2012 1:38:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Harry, I commend you for making this controversial topic, and would like to provide my own insight. It is a complex issue for me to articulate on, but I will attempt to do so.

My first point is that I entirely agree that the erosion of traditional British culture is a grave tragedy. This erosion of one of the most sophisticated and civilised cultures is a key issue. Indeed, Japan prevents immigration and the like partially for reasons of cultural preservation - it's a fairly monocultural society. The day when cricket ceases to have it's popularity, we stop drinking tea and the like will be a poor day. I don't think that will happen, but some parts of British culture will die out.

However, I ought to state that not all immigration is bad. Australia has coped fairly well with immigration over the years. The addition of Greek, Italian, and recently strong Asian immigration (to mention a few nationalities) has enriched Australian life. I actually go to a school with 70% of the students coming from some foreign background (although they may have been born in Australia) , mostly Asian or Indian. It is not a problem at all - the community accepts each other even if some people are more shy around some people. My area is the richer for such a diverse cultural mix, although I do wish that a touch more English culture remained.

This brings me to a theory of mine - that cultures can take a generation or more to integrate. Asian immigration started following the Vietnam War and it's no problem now. Muslim immigration is more recent and viewed with concern, perhaps understandably considering the Muslim population has above average crime rates (not to mention police know who the witnesses to shootings are yet witnesses won't talk..) in the Western part of Sydney and the like. The question is whether this will fix itself in 20 years or so, over time as people integrate. I do hope so, and I remain optimistic - I've met some Lebanese (not always Islamic though) people of the highest calibre. The problem though is the lower cadre. Whether it is a matter of socio-economic factors and the like is another question, although that in turn begs issue of whether there's a correlation to Islamic culture...

A person I know is a teacher at a school with a very strong Muslim background. The only religion taught is Islam. Why? The children complain and cause a veritable uproar if say, Christianity, was being taught. Now, this area is a very poor one and various factors (such as criminals as parents in some cases...) seriously affect the student's development, but it is a touch shocking.

I probably ought to find something else to say, but the words won't flow right now. I think Islam will, as with other cultures, slowly be integrated, moderated and the like under the push of western culture or secularism. However, having the growth of Islam now is, I believe, a negative in large doses. We need to wait until Islam has become more moderate and believers ready to accept foreign cultures before we have en masse immigration.

If the above sounds racist in any manner then it merely means I can't articulate myself properly, for it should not. My sincerest apologies if my words are tempered too harshly.
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/7/2012 6:21:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 1:49:38 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/6/2012 12:45:23 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/6/2012 10:46:28 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Mirza and I have disgreed on this in a separate thread:

http://www.debate.org...

since that thread is really about a question asked about Women and Islam, I'm starting this new one specifically about a question I have been exploring for the past four or five years.

Many people in the UK, US and EU are not directly immersed in the growth of Islam and the growth of Muslim populations (either through births or immigration) and in my experience do as I once did - namely lean toward a liberal acceptance and tolerance because this underpins our own societies in this day and age.

My view today is rather different because I returned from the US (after ten years away) to the UK a few years ago (for two years) and lived in the heart of an English City that has seen an incredible degree of immigration from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc over the past fifty years.

I was frankly shocked by what I saw and over the course of my two year stay began to form the view that the growth of Islam and mass immigration from Muslim countries is ultimately bad for the indigenous people.

I lived in Birmingham in the UK - once the center of the industrial revolution.

Rather than list the many negative things I saw, I will stop here and see what other have to say about this question.

Harry.

Can you be more specific about you were "shocked" about? What specifically was bad about a large muslim population?

Of course, the shock arises from the degree of increased visibility even intrusion of Islam and the passive decline of traditional English characteristics once taken for granted by someone living in England.

Sparkbrook is a locality that is now dominated by Pakistani culture, once an old fashioned established English town littered with Church buildings, Gothic and Victorian houses and civic buildings.

The high streets are almost exclusively Pakistani with Halal butchers, Pakistani eateries, grocery stores, signage in Urdu, almost all of the employment is Muslim with a known preference for hiring only Muslims.

This is called the free market. If there is demand for these things, they will exist. If there is no demand, they will not exist. You cannot force people to eat non-Halal meat.
Most of the older smaller pubs are gone because the proporion of non-Muslims has fallen as immigration has proceeded, liqour stores are gone too.

Again, this is basic demand. If there is no demand, the pubs will no longer operate. You cannot force people to drink.
Many stores are staffed by people who speak poor English and often when waiting inline to pay you hear staff and customers speaking in Udru or some other language, increasing the feeling of alienation further.

Um, why is this a problem? Learning a language is not a requirement for employment if the job can be performed without it.
Taking a walk around Sparkbrook is shocking for me and many, it has changed beyond all recognition, traces of older established families and people are all but gone.

Ok, so? They left voluntarily.
Doctors - I took visits to my doctor in another area and found that I was the only English person there, in the waiting room were some 25+ people from all parts of the globe - advice posters and information is written in 20 languages, speaking to other people waiting - a normal thing for an Englishman - is rarely fruitful because of language/cultural differences.

So? The market noticed that the customers speak another language so it accommodates them. Do you have a problem with the free market?
Taxis - Birmingham has a long established system of Taxis but nowadays very very few are driven by indigenous Brits. Many drivers are rude and refuse to assist a lone female passnger with bags/cases.
This is disgusting, but from a market perspective, you are not entitled to taxi service. People have the right to refuse you their business for any reason.
Once my own wife (who is American) was simply unable to get a taxi at around 8pm after some shopping near her office becauise - guess? - it was Ramadan and there were virtualy no taxis around at all, she eventually found one out of pure luck but was stranded for a time late at night on her own.

The company is at fault for not hiring taxi drivers who can drive during Ramadan. It is not the fault of the Muslim drivers.
Once when shopping I was repeatedly pushed and shoved by a group of three women wearing burqas or niqabs, I know why - in their home countries this kind of rough pushing to get what one wants from a shelf is the norm - but it is very rude in England, yet they care not.

Ok, this is rude and violate your rights, but it is one incident.
Many churches are now Mosques, one sees alien languages and Arabic slogans and graffiti on non-Muslim buildings.

If the churches were bought by the Muslims, they have the right to do as they see fit with them. This is basic property rights. The graffiti should be punished, but it is not restricted to Muslim individuals.
Those indigenous Brits that remain in these areas who have kids are forced to see that the schools are dominated by Islam and other alien cultures,
LOL, so what? There is no need to shelter individuals.
many schools emphasize the importance of alien cultures and seek to indoctrinate non-Muslims to accept and "respect" Islam or Sikhism
So there is a problem with respecting other religions or cultures? What is your problem with Sikhism, by the way? It is approximately 1000x more peaceful than Islam is.
. Most schools books are written with three or more languages and few kids have English as their first language.

So what? They have the right to speak any language they please. This is called freedom of expression.
Apart from these day to day observations and experiences, I heard often and read often of further issues, like how some blind people with guide dogs are refused a bus ride (because some Muslims have an irrational loathing of dogs),
LOOOL, yes, only Muslims have irrational fears of dogs. LOOOL

Seriously?
I heard of a local shop which was harassed because it had a police safety poster in which the pictuure showed an officer and a police dog.

Ok, so the act of one idiot somehow vilifies the whole population instead of that one individual? Should we put you to death because there are white murderers in America?
I heard of several cases of Muslim eomployees of larger grocery chains refusing to go near or touch boxes/creates that contain alcohol
That is their right.
and attempts to discipline or dismiss them were thwarted by the sheer prevalance of Islam in the local community and legal system.

You mean the customers exerted market pressure and threatened to boycott the stores if they were fired? That is well within the rights of the customers. Again, this is part of the free market.
Many local political leaders are Muslims and can fail to act impartially when residents requests cause a conflict with their Islamic principles.

Examples? The people can always point out abuse of power and have them impeached.
There is a constant stream of stories large and small that show how Islam is divisive, inflexible, unyielding and how generally good natured, kind, tolerent indigenous people have been taken for granted.

99% of your examples are not even things you can complain about legitimately if you believe in free enterprise.


Harry.
royalpaladin
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12/7/2012 6:23:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 2:04:05 PM, MouthWash wrote:
At 12/6/2012 11:29:49 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
It is only a threat if they start imposing religious laws on others. I have no problem with Muslims practicing their faith privately or even having public parades or whatever on holidays. As long as they are not imposing laws on me, it really is not a big deal.

The funny thing about the Sharia Law courts is that the British forced them onto the Muslim when they originally invaded India, and now the hardliners want these courts in place even though they distinguish them from the rest of the population.

The British are obviously hypocrites for not wanting Sharia law implemented when they enforced them in India a few hundred years ago. Yep, they're just getting what they deserve!

LOL, this is not even what I said. I said that it is funny that the Muslims want it since it was forced on them earlier. I even condemned Sharia Law imposition in the first paragrap. Maybe if you had not dropped out of high school, you would have been able to understand that.
Mirza
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12/7/2012 7:24:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 1:52:51 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Or speak frankly with facts and figures on a public debating forum to dismantle the fabrications of people like you Mirza.
None of my statements are fabrications. Yours, however, are dumbed-up personal experiences and non-issues that no rational person takes seriously. Take some time to think.

Harry.
Mirza.
Dirty.Harry
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12/7/2012 12:11:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2012 1:38:36 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
Harry, I commend you for making this controversial topic, and would like to provide my own insight. It is a complex issue for me to articulate on, but I will attempt to do so.

My first point is that I entirely agree that the erosion of traditional British culture is a grave tragedy. This erosion of one of the most sophisticated and civilised cultures is a key issue. Indeed, Japan prevents immigration and the like partially for reasons of cultural preservation - it's a fairly monocultural society. The day when cricket ceases to have it's popularity, we stop drinking tea and the like will be a poor day. I don't think that will happen, but some parts of British culture will die out.

However, I ought to state that not all immigration is bad. Australia has coped fairly well with immigration over the years. The addition of Greek, Italian, and recently strong Asian immigration (to mention a few nationalities) has enriched Australian life. I actually go to a school with 70% of the students coming from some foreign background (although they may have been born in Australia) , mostly Asian or Indian. It is not a problem at all - the community accepts each other even if some people are more shy around some people. My area is the richer for such a diverse cultural mix, although I do wish that a touch more English culture remained.

This brings me to a theory of mine - that cultures can take a generation or more to integrate. Asian immigration started following the Vietnam War and it's no problem now. Muslim immigration is more recent and viewed with concern, perhaps understandably considering the Muslim population has above average crime rates (not to mention police know who the witnesses to shootings are yet witnesses won't talk..) in the Western part of Sydney and the like. The question is whether this will fix itself in 20 years or so, over time as people integrate. I do hope so, and I remain optimistic - I've met some Lebanese (not always Islamic though) people of the highest calibre. The problem though is the lower cadre. Whether it is a matter of socio-economic factors and the like is another question, although that in turn begs issue of whether there's a correlation to Islamic culture...

A person I know is a teacher at a school with a very strong Muslim background. The only religion taught is Islam. Why? The children complain and cause a veritable uproar if say, Christianity, was being taught. Now, this area is a very poor one and various factors (such as criminals as parents in some cases...) seriously affect the student's development, but it is a touch shocking.

I probably ought to find something else to say, but the words won't flow right now. I think Islam will, as with other cultures, slowly be integrated, moderated and the like under the push of western culture or secularism. However, having the growth of Islam now is, I believe, a negative in large doses. We need to wait until Islam has become more moderate and believers ready to accept foreign cultures before we have en masse immigration.

If the above sounds racist in any manner then it merely means I can't articulate myself properly, for it should not. My sincerest apologies if my words are tempered too harshly.

Thanks and let me too be clear that I am not opposed to immigration nor to people based on their origins or skin color. In the UK though we've seen something that many folks in the US have never experienced, we now have over 3,000,000 Muslims in the UK - most from Pakistan and these people are concentrated in certain regions. This has had a dramatic impact upon the indigenous people who live (and used to live) in these towns and cities.

I am now opposed to what some term "multiculturalism" because it tends to undermine and devalue the indigenous culture, we should not - as a people - encourage the erosion of our existing culture, but this is what multiculturalism leads to when one has very large scale immigration as we have had in the UK starting in the early 50s.

As a child in Liverpool I was subjected (school, TV etc) subliminally to constant reminders about the need to "respect" and "understand" alien cultures - I did not object to this at the time because I did not see it that way at that time. We (the indigenous kids) were always reminded about white injustices to non-whites and made to feel guilty for being who we were. The crime and racism that stemmed from white indigenous (and I do not deny it existed) was never taboo - but the crime and abuse stemming from alien immigrant cultures and attitudes was simply off the agenda - and I think that is wrong.

Of course over time people can and do integrate but not always to the same degree for each culture for example Chinese in Britain do not integrate very much but neither do they complain and seek to change their host country - we've had Chinese people in Britain and especially Liverpool for centuries yet their presence has never been offensive or demanding and they pose no threat whatsoever to our established culture.

But immigrant Muslims - although not a race - are the opposite, always seeking to get us to adapt to their wishes, always complaining about our culture, constantly seeking changes to employment laws, marriage law, food services (most schools in the UK now obtain food from Halal sources for example, as do most Airlines - few outside of the UK know this) and on and on and on.

My experience is that Muslims are often fanatically devoted to Islam above and beyond all else and so will seek all the time to create a society that is inline rather than antagonistic too Islam, they simply can't keep themselves to themselves and tend to show little respect or tolerance for their host country - this is far far more common with Muslim immigrants that any other.

Many Muslims simply have absolutely no desire or intention of integrating - it is quite simply - an oppressive, inflexible, intolerant and primitive ideology and it is a very real threat.

There are Muslim schools in England - and this has been the subject of several critical documentaries - that actually teach that homosexuals should be executed or that a thief should have their hand cut off and so on and so forth - this is no fabrication and Youtube makes this easy for anyone to verify.

Tell me why any rational persons should not be alarmed by these kinds of things and why it is wrong to take a vocal and strong opposing stance to this kind of barbarity?

Harry.
Dirty.Harry
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12/7/2012 12:57:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2012 6:21:27 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/6/2012 1:49:38 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:

Of course, the shock arises from the degree of increased visibility even intrusion of Islam and the passive decline of traditional English characteristics once taken for granted by someone living in England.

Sparkbrook is a locality that is now dominated by Pakistani culture, once an old fashioned established English town littered with Church buildings, Gothic and Victorian houses and civic buildings.

The high streets are almost exclusively Pakistani with Halal butchers, Pakistani eateries, grocery stores, signage in Urdu, almost all of the employment is Muslim with a known preference for hiring only Muslims.

This is called the free market. If there is demand for these things, they will exist. If there is no demand, they will not exist. You cannot force people to eat non-Halal meat.
Its a market that has only arisen due to deliberate, massive and uncritical immigration policy - had our policy not weakened in the 50s we would not have it, that is not a free market at all.
Most of the older smaller pubs are gone because the proporion of non-Muslims has fallen as immigration has proceeded, liqour stores are gone too.

Again, this is basic demand. If there is no demand, the pubs will no longer operate. You cannot force people to drink.
See above.
Many stores are staffed by people who speak poor English and often when waiting inline to pay you hear staff and customers speaking in Udru or some other language, increasing the feeling of alienation further.

Um, why is this a problem? Learning a language is not a requirement for employment if the job can be performed without it.
Because some find it disrespectful and rude to be excluded from chit chat in their local stores - try living there...

Taking a walk around Sparkbrook is shocking for me and many, it has changed beyond all recognition, traces of older established families and people are all but gone.

Ok, so? They left voluntarily.
Doctors - I took visits to my doctor in another area and found that I was the only English person there, in the waiting room were some 25+ people from all parts of the globe - advice posters and information is written in 20 languages, speaking to other people waiting - a normal thing for an Englishman - is rarely fruitful because of language/cultural differences.

So? The market noticed that the customers speak another language so it accommodates them. Do you have a problem with the free market?
"Free" how can it be decoupled from government policy? going from almost zero Muslim population for centuries to 3,000,000 in fifty years is not an example of free market at all.
Taxis - Birmingham has a long established system of Taxis but nowadays very very few are driven by indigenous Brits. Many drivers are rude and refuse to assist a lone female passnger with bags/cases.
This is disgusting, but from a market perspective, you are not entitled to taxi service. People have the right to refuse you their business for any reason.
And I have the right to object.
Once my own wife (who is American) was simply unable to get a taxi at around 8pm after some shopping near her office becauise - guess? - it was Ramadan and there were virtualy no taxis around at all, she eventually found one out of pure luck but was stranded for a time late at night on her own.

The company is at fault for not hiring taxi drivers who can drive during Ramadan. It is not the fault of the Muslim drivers.
The companies are run by Muslims.

Once when shopping I was repeatedly pushed and shoved by a group of three women wearing burqas or niqabs, I know why - in their home countries this kind of rough pushing to get what one wants from a shelf is the norm - but it is very rude in England, yet they care not.

Ok, this is rude and violate your rights, but it is one incident.
If you think that one incident has caused me to radically alter my views on Islam in five years then you haven't been following very well.

Many churches are now Mosques, one sees alien languages and Arabic slogans and graffiti on non-Muslim buildings.

If the churches were bought by the Muslims, they have the right to do as they see fit with them. This is basic property rights. The graffiti should be punished, but it is not restricted to Muslim individuals.
My point is that allowing uncritical mass immigration from Muslim countries has led to this - I do not deny that a person with money may buy what they wish but introducing millions of Muslims into certain areas has caused a dramatic change to those areas and the few indigenous who are too poor to move live lonely and isolated lives because their previous social support and community, neighbors etc has faded. I see you care nothing for such victims - you just seek to justify their elimination.
Those indigenous Brits that remain in these areas who have kids are forced to see that the schools are dominated by Islam and other alien cultures,
LOL, so what? There is no need to shelter individuals.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
many schools emphasize the importance of alien cultures and seek to indoctrinate non-Muslims to accept and "respect" Islam or Sikhism
So there is a problem with respecting other religions or cultures? What is your problem with Sikhism, by the way? It is approximately 1000x more peaceful than Islam is.
I think there is a problem yes, demanding a child respect an ideology that is both very alien and hostile to their own culture is not what I expect from a school in my own country.
. Most schools books are written with three or more languages and few kids have English as their first language.

So what? They have the right to speak any language they please. This is called freedom of expression.
Well we should not encourage division when people migrate to or country - and making it easy to avoid learning English only makes integration less likely.
Apart from these day to day observations and experiences, I heard often and read often of further issues, like how some blind people with guide dogs are refused a bus ride (because some Muslims have an irrational loathing of dogs),
LOOOL, yes, only Muslims have irrational fears of dogs. LOOOL
Did I say that? I will say that ONLY Muslims refuse to allow a blind man to board a bus - it was unheard of before we had Islam in the UK.

Seriously?
I heard of a local shop which was harassed because it had a police safety poster in which the pictuure showed an officer and a police dog.

Ok, so the act of one idiot somehow vilifies the whole population instead of that one individual? Should we put you to death because there are white murderers in America?
I heard of several cases of Muslim employees of larger grocery chains refusing to go near or touch boxes/creates that contain alcohol
That is their right.

It should not be, we should make it clear that immigrants are expected to accept our culture or leave, we should not waste time with those who dislike our country. Do you know the London Police now have to fund the cost of translation services for hundreds of languages - this is ovr 100 Million USD and could pay for an additional 16,000 cops - try living in some of the places I'm telling you about or are you just a NIMBY apologist for Islam?

Harry.
1Devilsadvocate
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12/7/2012 2:11:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2012 1:38:36 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
...
However, I ought to state that not all immigration is bad. Australia has coped fairly well with immigration over the years. The addition of Greek, Italian, and recently strong Asian immigration (to mention a few nationalities) has enriched Australian life. I actually go to a school with 70% of the students coming from some foreign background (although they may have been born in Australia) , mostly Asian or Indian. It is not a problem at all - the community accepts each other even if some people are more shy around some people. My area is the richer for such a diverse cultural mix, although I do wish that a touch more English culture remained.

I think there is a difference between having a few people from many places/cultures, & many people from one culture/ ideology.
Also do these immigrants have just different culture or significantly different ideology?
Do they wish to impose their ideology & way of life on others?
Do they wish to convert others to their own ideology? (I think only Islam & Christianity actively seek people to convert.)

This brings me to a theory of mine - that cultures can take a generation or more to integrate. Asian immigration started following the Vietnam War and it's no problem now. Muslim immigration is more recent and viewed with concern, perhaps understandably considering the Muslim population has above average crime rates (not to mention police know who the witnesses to shootings are yet witnesses won't talk..) in the Western part of Sydney and the like. The question is whether this will fix itself in 20 years or so, over time as people integrate. I do hope so, and I remain optimistic - I've met some Lebanese (not always Islamic though) people of the highest calibre. The problem though is the lower cadre. Whether it is a matter of socio-economic factors and the like is another question, although that in turn begs issue of whether there's a correlation to Islamic culture...

A person I know is a teacher at a school with a very strong Muslim background. The only religion taught is Islam. Why? The children complain and cause a veritable uproar if say, Christianity, was being taught. Now, this area is a very poor one and various factors (such as criminals as parents in some cases...) seriously affect the student's development, but it is a touch shocking.

I probably ought to find something else to say, but the words won't flow right now. I think Islam will, as with other cultures, slowly be integrated, moderated and the like under the push of western culture or secularism. However, having the growth of Islam now is, I believe, a negative in large doses. We need to wait until Islam has become more moderate and believers ready to accept foreign cultures before we have en masse immigration.

If the above sounds racist in any manner then it merely means I can't articulate myself properly, for it should not. My sincerest apologies if my words are tempered too harshly.

Integrating depends on many things including; the mindset of the culture, & how comfortable they are, how numerous they are, how close together (not spread out) they are, etc.

Based on these factors I don't think muslims will become more english, but rather the other way around slightly. I could see there being a civil war &/ a split sometime in this century .

It's scary though, if sharia does become the law & the country does become predominantly Muslim, non Muslim's may have to convert or leave.

There is hope, if you look at history Christianity also was violent ( crusades & inquisitions). But in the end cooler heads prevailed, & it became more civilized. Hopefully the same will happen with Islam.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
Dirty.Harry
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12/7/2012 2:28:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2012 2:11:12 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 12/7/2012 1:38:36 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
...
However, I ought to state that not all immigration is bad. Australia has coped fairly well with immigration over the years. The addition of Greek, Italian, and recently strong Asian immigration (to mention a few nationalities) has enriched Australian life. I actually go to a school with 70% of the students coming from some foreign background (although they may have been born in Australia) , mostly Asian or Indian. It is not a problem at all - the community accepts each other even if some people are more shy around some people. My area is the richer for such a diverse cultural mix, although I do wish that a touch more English culture remained.

I think there is a difference between having a few people from many places/cultures, & many people from one culture/ ideology.
Also do these immigrants have just different culture or significantly different ideology?
Do they wish to impose their ideology & way of life on others?
Do they wish to convert others to their own ideology? (I think only Islam & Christianity actively seek people to convert.)

This brings me to a theory of mine - that cultures can take a generation or more to integrate. Asian immigration started following the Vietnam War and it's no problem now. Muslim immigration is more recent and viewed with concern, perhaps understandably considering the Muslim population has above average crime rates (not to mention police know who the witnesses to shootings are yet witnesses won't talk..) in the Western part of Sydney and the like. The question is whether this will fix itself in 20 years or so, over time as people integrate. I do hope so, and I remain optimistic - I've met some Lebanese (not always Islamic though) people of the highest calibre. The problem though is the lower cadre. Whether it is a matter of socio-economic factors and the like is another question, although that in turn begs issue of whether there's a correlation to Islamic culture...

A person I know is a teacher at a school with a very strong Muslim background. The only religion taught is Islam. Why? The children complain and cause a veritable uproar if say, Christianity, was being taught. Now, this area is a very poor one and various factors (such as criminals as parents in some cases...) seriously affect the student's development, but it is a touch shocking.

I probably ought to find something else to say, but the words won't flow right now. I think Islam will, as with other cultures, slowly be integrated, moderated and the like under the push of western culture or secularism. However, having the growth of Islam now is, I believe, a negative in large doses. We need to wait until Islam has become more moderate and believers ready to accept foreign cultures before we have en masse immigration.

If the above sounds racist in any manner then it merely means I can't articulate myself properly, for it should not. My sincerest apologies if my words are tempered too harshly.

Integrating depends on many things including; the mindset of the culture, & how comfortable they are, how numerous they are, how close together (not spread out) they are, etc.

Based on these factors I don't think muslims will become more english, but rather the other way around slightly. I could see there being a civil war &/ a split sometime in this century .

It's scary though, if sharia does become the law & the country does become predominantly Muslim, non Muslim's may have to convert or leave.

There is hope, if you look at history Christianity also was violent ( crusades & inquisitions). But in the end cooler heads prevailed, & it became more civilized. Hopefully the same will happen with Islam.

What few seem to be aware of is that Christianity - which too has had episodes of barbarity - underwent a reformation which saw the decline and almost complete elimination of many of the former barbaric practices like witch trials, inquisitions and so on. Islam has never undergone any such process and is barbaric now as it was in 700 AD.

Islam has always consisted of a leading, politically manipulative elite with a largely passive majority following. This majority - who on a personal level are nice enough individuals, will - rest assured - toe the line dictated by this leadership - the imams and clerics that speak for the majority are often radical and vocal and you will never find a Muslim prepared to take sides against such leaders and align with non-Muslims, t just doesn't happen and is a deeply ingrained trait of Islam.

This is why you will rarely see a passive Muslim speak out in defense of homosexuals or apostates, they toe the line and fear being labelled a heretic, they will follow the leader.

Its very hard to have a true friend who is a Muslim if you are not - sadly it is the nature of the cult.

Harry.
Dirty.Harry
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12/7/2012 2:29:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2012 7:24:08 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/6/2012 1:52:51 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Or speak frankly with facts and figures on a public debating forum to dismantle the fabrications of people like you Mirza.
None of my statements are fabrications. Yours, however, are dumbed-up personal experiences and non-issues that no rational person takes seriously. Take some time to think.

Harry.
Mirza.

Do you consider yourself a Muslim or are you simply defending Islam?

Harry.
Khaos_Mage
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12/7/2012 2:52:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 10:46:28 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Mirza and I have disgreed on this in a separate thread:

http://www.debate.org...

since that thread is really about a question asked about Women and Islam, I'm starting this new one specifically about a question I have been exploring for the past four or five years.

Many people in the UK, US and EU are not directly immersed in the growth of Islam and the growth of Muslim populations (either through births or immigration) and in my experience do as I once did - namely lean toward a liberal acceptance and tolerance because this underpins our own societies in this day and age.

My view today is rather different because I returned from the US (after ten years away) to the UK a few years ago (for two years) and lived in the heart of an English City that has seen an incredible degree of immigration from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc over the past fifty years.

I was frankly shocked by what I saw and over the course of my two year stay began to form the view that the growth of Islam and mass immigration from Muslim countries is ultimately bad for the indigenous people.
This is true of any culture, not just Muslims. Any mass immigration will lead to clusters of cultures, which are difficult to assimilate.

Furthermore, regarding Muslims, I don't think they are bad per se, but the more radical, the more "dangerous" (not necessarily violence, but political bastardation and such), but again, this could be said against any zealot. Think of how religion has shaped U.S. law, when the U.S. was supposed to be for religious freedom.

Whether it's mass immigration or religious views, these people need to understand the workings of the country they have moved to. I am assuming there is a reason they didn't move to a communist country, as they want to practice their religion, but don't demand religious laws.

I lived in Birmingham in the UK - once the center of the industrial revolution.

Rather than list the many negative things I saw, I will stop here and see what other have to say about this question.

Harry.
My work here is, finally, done.
Dirty.Harry
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12/7/2012 3:20:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2012 2:52:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 12/6/2012 10:46:28 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Mirza and I have disgreed on this in a separate thread:

http://www.debate.org...

since that thread is really about a question asked about Women and Islam, I'm starting this new one specifically about a question I have been exploring for the past four or five years.

Many people in the UK, US and EU are not directly immersed in the growth of Islam and the growth of Muslim populations (either through births or immigration) and in my experience do as I once did - namely lean toward a liberal acceptance and tolerance because this underpins our own societies in this day and age.

My view today is rather different because I returned from the US (after ten years away) to the UK a few years ago (for two years) and lived in the heart of an English City that has seen an incredible degree of immigration from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc over the past fifty years.

I was frankly shocked by what I saw and over the course of my two year stay began to form the view that the growth of Islam and mass immigration from Muslim countries is ultimately bad for the indigenous people.
This is true of any culture, not just Muslims. Any mass immigration will lead to clusters of cultures, which are difficult to assimilate.

Yes I agree and I think the long term negative impact (upon some) of decades of uncritical mass migration from Pakistan, Bangladesh and parts of Africa have been neglected, those who advocated and supported this are to blame.

Furthermore, regarding Muslims, I don't think they are bad per se, but the more radical, the more "dangerous" (not necessarily violence, but political bastardation and such), but again, this could be said against any zealot. Think of how religion has shaped U.S. law, when the U.S. was supposed to be for religious freedom.

I agree too, I know several Muslims and have enjoyed their company, some are Muslims with a small "m" and will even sneak a pint sometimes, they are Muslims because of family or ancestry etc. Although the US legal system was indeed shaped by Christianity (and the British system) this in itself was not a cause for strife because the vast majority of early settlers were from traditionally Christian countries: Britain, Germany, Poland, Russia, France, Italy, Spain, Ireland etc.

Mass Islamic immigration is very different because it sees the growth of an ideology that is incompatible with the already established cultures to which they migrate.

Whether it's mass immigration or religious views, these people need to understand the workings of the country they have moved to. I am assuming there is a reason they didn't move to a communist country, as they want to practice their religion, but don't demand religious laws.

Well many move to the UK because successive governments have allowed it - they have lectured us all on the "benefits" of multiculturalism both social and economic yet failed to mention that it provides no benefits whatsoever for those communities that become swamped by the influx. And swamped is a very valid description for some parts of the country. Like I said approx 70% of the population of Sparkbrook are immigrant Muslims and all aspects of life in that locality are dominated by Islam and Muslims. Then take East London, again utterly beyond recognition today.

Take a look at the attached clip - and imagine your favorite town looking like this in ten years - would you want to remain there? The clip is hosted by a Welshman and he is able to later speak in the street in Welsh so that those passing by cannot hear and denounce him.

I lived in Birmingham in the UK - once the center of the industrial revolution.

Rather than list the many negative things I saw, I will stop here and see what other have to say about this question.

Harry.
Wnope
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12/7/2012 3:36:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'd also be just as irritated with Evangelical dominionists (who think the constitution comes second to all Christian philosophy/theology) moving in as I would be with Salaafist muslims.
Wnope
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12/7/2012 3:40:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Granted, I think I differ because I find nothing holy about WASP-ish culture embedded in a nation-state formed several hundred years ago after wiping out/annexing the local culture.

I am the same way about the white people who are so terrified of hot dogs being replaced by burritos and the national anthem replaced with La Cucaracha.
Dirty.Harry
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12/7/2012 3:49:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2012 3:40:43 PM, Wnope wrote:
Granted, I think I differ because I find nothing holy about WASP-ish culture embedded in a nation-state formed several hundred years ago after wiping out/annexing the local culture.

I am the same way about the white people who are so terrified of hot dogs being replaced by burritos and the national anthem replaced with La Cucaracha.

Always be cautious my friend, a country, city, town or village and its culture is a very precious thing to have and if not actively cherished and protected can fade away forever and be replaced with something very alien and malevolent.

If you think about this then ask yourself what kinds of things could lead to irreversible changes you may begin to understand the reason that some object as they do.

Take a trip to a town or city that you would NOT like to live in and then ask if that is prejudicial of you? if it is wrong to want to prevent a place you like becoming a place you'd dislike to live.

Harry.
Apeiron
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12/7/2012 3:55:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
From what I know of the Koran, Islam must separate the world of the converted (the world of peace) from the world of war (the unconverted). So that war is normative.

Whereas in the bible, whatever wars spoken of or commanded, isn't normative, but consequential.

I think a plain honest reading of both texts will give these two different understandings.

So the spread of Islam in the West really ought to be the center piece of the the New Atheist movement... I really don't know why they have such zeal against bible believing Christians- those who are commanded to love their enemies.

If anything it represents a misunderstanding of what Christianity is all about. And their Islamic-fuled hatred of religion makes Christianity into the whipping boy it's always been.. no surprise ;-)
Apeiron
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12/7/2012 4:00:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Harry is right, I do dismay over how fat, bored and complacent American youth has become... largely empty selves who are in a hurry to get out of college & start making money that's not really there anyway.

The cultivation of the mind is the most important yet most neglected thing in the states. Conclusions are arrived at as quickly as we receive our mocha latt"! All that matters anymore in this society is how much external stuff you have- who cares about the internal stuff? It's nothing but matter and energy anyways. Carpe Diem.
Apeiron
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12/7/2012 4:09:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Of course that's a huge sweeping generalization and should be tempered as such. But on average, I'm surprised when I see thoughtful discussion that isn't bothered by being wrong. Genuine truth seekers- not just 'wanting-to-be-right' seekers.