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Society Degrading

R0b1Billion
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12/15/2012 10:24:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
While the Dems and Reps point fingers at each other over gun-control, like idiots, perhaps we should look at why a man decides to attack a group of small children. Guns are only a tertiary issue here IMO.

I'm losing count of how many shootings we've had this year in this country. We have to be approaching 10 now... Why is this trend accelerating? Can anyone admit that things are getting worse?

We won't admit the environment is getting worse, so I have a strong feeling will will also turn the same ignorant attitude towards our culture. We are so arrogant and naive, to think we can "handle" this issue through gun legislation (dems propose stricter control, reps want more guns in the hands of citizens). We have this incessant subjectivity about us, refusing to acknowledge that it is our own selfishness that causes people to lose control in this way.

What else would we expect? Interpersonal interactions are being readily replaced by electronic communication. The family-unit is falling away, and I don't mean just the nuclear family, I mean the macro-scale community "family" where you associate and help out your neighbors as opposed to ignore them (I've talked about this before on DDO). We are becoming more materialistic and less concerned with ethics... We are working more menial-labor positions (more hours as well as more jobs) in order to continue producing more products and services, which we are absolutely obsessed with. It is becoming more complicated to remove stress from our lives as more and more is put on our plate. Our freedoms are degrading further each decade that passes as employers fight to compete with each other economically and we get caught in the middle. Rules are getting stricter, hours are getting longer, and the American worker is truly becoming a slave in all senses of the word.

We should not be perplexed at mass-shootings, we should be expecting it. We should not be talking about guns, as this guy would have created a tragic event even if he rushed in with a baseball bat. Hell, if I was so-inclined, I could knock off dozens of small children with nothing more than a stick before I was stopped... GUNS ARE NOT THE ISSUE, PEOPLE.
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- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
tulle
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12/15/2012 10:34:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Interesting post. I agree with the first paragraph 100%. I was thinking about this last night, when people were saying gun control won't work because there will be a market for them anyway (in the US). Well that's the first problem.
yang.
darkkermit
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12/15/2012 10:37:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 10:35:17 AM, Koopin wrote:
inb4 someone says "because of violent video games."

Oh god, my mom said that when discussing it.
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Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,571
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12/15/2012 12:17:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 10:24:34 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
While the Dems and Reps point fingers at each other over gun-control, like idiots, perhaps we should look at why a man decides to attack a group of small children. Guns are only a tertiary issue here IMO.

I'm losing count of how many shootings we've had this year in this country. We have to be approaching 10 now... Why is this trend accelerating? Can anyone admit that things are getting worse?

We won't admit the environment is getting worse, so I have a strong feeling will will also turn the same ignorant attitude towards our culture. We are so arrogant and naive, to think we can "handle" this issue through gun legislation (dems propose stricter control, reps want more guns in the hands of citizens). We have this incessant subjectivity about us, refusing to acknowledge that it is our own selfishness that causes people to lose control in this way.

What else would we expect? Interpersonal interactions are being readily replaced by electronic communication. The family-unit is falling away, and I don't mean just the nuclear family, I mean the macro-scale community "family" where you associate and help out your neighbors as opposed to ignore them (I've talked about this before on DDO). We are becoming more materialistic and less concerned with ethics... We are working more menial-labor positions (more hours as well as more jobs) in order to continue producing more products and services, which we are absolutely obsessed with. It is becoming more complicated to remove stress from our lives as more and more is put on our plate. Our freedoms are degrading further each decade that passes as employers fight to compete with each other economically and we get caught in the middle. Rules are getting stricter, hours are getting longer, and the American worker is truly becoming a slave in all senses of the word.

We should not be perplexed at mass-shootings, we should be expecting it. We should not be talking about guns, as this guy would have created a tragic event even if he rushed in with a baseball bat. Hell, if I was so-inclined, I could knock off dozens of small children with nothing more than a stick before I was stopped... GUNS ARE NOT THE ISSUE, PEOPLE.

Great post and it mirrors a chat my wife and I had this morning.

Unless one looks at the human toll of a variety of activities it is not obvious which should receive the most attention - some have said "ban guns" but how many innocent lives a year would that save compared to say a ban on cars from the center of our cities? if the numbers matter then gun availability really isn't that big a problem if the numbers don't matter then what does?

Like you say what is the cause of this - the gun certainly isn't - guns have been a right in the US for a very long time - so why do we only recently see mass shootings at schools?

There is certainly a decline underway in manners, courtesy and concern for others - I see it a lot in the UK and here in the US though to a lesser extent. The growing motivator for people is "self" and I see a constant obsession with the self. People push and shove and beep and shout at others to an ever increasing extent - I have - for some time - blamed TV for much of this.

Harry.
Chuz-Life
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12/15/2012 12:36:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Every time one of these happens, I stop and remind myself that for as bad as it is or was it could have been much much worse. We are a much more vulnerable society than these instances indicate. It doesn't take much imagination to see ways that it could have been worse.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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YYW
Posts: 36,249
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12/15/2012 2:18:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 10:24:34 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
While the Dems and Reps point fingers at each other over gun-control, like idiots, perhaps we should look at why a man decides to attack a group of small children. Guns are only a tertiary issue here IMO.

I think that's an incredibly salient observation, and one with which I totally agree.

I'm losing count of how many shootings we've had this year in this country. We have to be approaching 10 now... Why is this trend accelerating? Can anyone admit that things are getting worse?

I think that as a society it is the case that Americans have become "accustomed" to an extent (the degree of which I'm not sure about) to hearing about mass public shootings, and especially to school shootings. For me, however, this shooting left me at a loss for words because of who the victims were... elementary school kids. As President Obama noted, "beautiful little kids who had their whole lives ahead of them." Killing elementary school aged kids is a new line in the sand, but one which I'm concerned will be crossed the next time this happens.

Since Columbine, it seems that there has been an impetus of those who carry out this sort of violence try to "top" one another either in subject (like the targeting of religious minorities), body count (like in the theater shooting) or both (like in Connecticut where both the subjects of violence were kids, and there were exceptionally high body counts). It reminded me of when the Chechen rebels captured a school in the Beslan hostage crisis. That's the kind of violence that, while shocking, is more expectable from a region like Ossetia -NOT Connecticut.

I think we can all agree that this is bad and it's getting worse, but the question is how to prevent this. As an aside, even some of the most far-right people I know have conceded the need for stricter gun control laws following the result of this case -and while that might help, I'm not sure it's a sufficient measure. The type of profiling that would be entailed in predicting who would do such a thing is equally disconcerting. However, even assuming that it could take place, psychological profiles would be really limited in terms of what they could offer because aggressors often take their own lives thereby precluding some sort of profile work up. So the point is that whatever pontification could be offered from a psychological profile is necessarily limited to what can be put together of the aggressor following the act. Hence the difficulty.

We won't admit the environment is getting worse, so I have a strong feeling will will also turn the same ignorant attitude towards our culture. We are so arrogant and naive, to think we can "handle" this issue through gun legislation (dems propose stricter control, reps want more guns in the hands of citizens). We have this incessant subjectivity about us, refusing to acknowledge that it is our own selfishness that causes people to lose control in this way.

After there is a crisis there is often a rush to establish some sort of meaning, that suffering may not be regarded as arbitrary. The problem is that here, this is absolutely arbitrary and almost impossible to predict now. I think a real effort should be made to, if this occurs in the future -and though I hope it doesn't it probably will if the trend continues- take aggressors into custody alive. That would enable psychologists and criminologists to build an understanding of what kind of profile a person who would do this has.

While the issue, though, is about gun control to an extent, it's more about who can purchase and own guns then it is about preventing lawful citizens from owning guns. The calls for "concealed carrying" of teachers are patently idiotic for a host of reasons, but the point is that there needs to be some sort of screening process to have guns before you can own them. So far as I am aware, the most haunting fact about this is that in many cases these crimes are perpetuated by legally purchased firearms -and could be perpetuated in the future by legally purchased firearms. The task will be to not impede on the rights of lawful citizens while mitigating the potentiality for societal violence.

What else would we expect? Interpersonal interactions are being readily replaced by electronic communication. The family-unit is falling away, and I don't mean just the nuclear family, I mean the macro-scale community "family" where you associate and help out your neighbors as opposed to ignore them (I've talked about this before on DDO). We are becoming more materialistic and less concerned with ethics... We are working more menial-labor positions (more hours as well as more jobs) in order to continue producing more products and services, which we are absolutely obsessed with. It is becoming more complicated to remove stress from our lives as more and more is put on our plate. Our freedoms are degrading further each decade that passes as employers fight to compete with each other economically and we get caught in the middle. Rules are getting stricter, hours are getting longer, and the American worker is truly becoming a slave in all senses of the word.

Well, there is a trend that generally causes rules to become stricter: people demonstrate that they can't handle the freedoms they have so society reacts in a way that might preclude a further misuse of that freedom. In America a lot of people cling hard to what they think are the "rights endowed to them by their forefathers." Rights don't come from constitutions, they come from ongoing legal traditions that govern relationships between citizens and society as a whole.

The US constitution was a reflection in many ways of legal traditions that evolved from English Common Law, tempered with the philosophy of John Locke. Property rights, weapon rights, etc. were not arbitrarily drawn up, whatever Locke may argue was the source, from natural law or as Jefferson would argue "from nature" or "nature's God." They come from a historical inheritance of legal traditions.

To the extent that people demonstrate their ability not to harm others while in possession of or in the exercise of such freedoms, rights tend not to come under fire. It's when people behave badly that the question of liberty and security emerges.

We should not be perplexed at mass-shootings, we should be expecting it. We should not be talking about guns, as this guy would have created a tragic event even if he rushed in with a baseball bat. Hell, if I was so-inclined, I could knock off dozens of small children with nothing more than a stick before I was stopped... GUNS ARE NOT THE ISSUE, PEOPLE.

I wouldn't go posting things like that online. Just a bit of advice.
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Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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12/15/2012 2:47:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is an interesting topic, but I think it's a very difficult thing to explain it completely - this is a multifaceted issue even for the simplistic explanation.

I've been reading an interesting series on honour (bear with me) , with the latest post being http://artofmanliness.com... (don't mind the title, it's a good site! Lengthy article though!) . Now, honour is just one small thing but the trends the eroded traditional honour are the same as one might claim are degrading society in some senses. It's not to say that these trends are bad, but that some elements of traditional honour like a common sense of good were lacking. Some trends causing this mentioned in the article: (it is a good read in full)

1. Urbanisation and Anonymity
2. Diversity, Leading to Conflicts Between Conscience and Honour
3. Diversity, Leading to Tolerance and Relativism
4. Choosing Your Own Honour Code
5. The Shaming of Shame
6. Egalitarianism and Inclusion
7. The Rise of Psychology
8. Authenticity & Sincerity
9. Wariness of Violence in a Litigious Society

Now, that's not to say that these trends are in and of themselves bad. They're not. However, they do lead to a more subjective existence, the erosion of a common good occurred. This isn't horrible in the sense that it brings some benefits, but a common good and other benefits of honour have beneficial aspects that ought to be re-introduced into society, as the next post in the series will discuss. Really though, I think the article is a fascinating read relevant to this subject, and no, I'm not the author.

Just on another note, I love nostalgia, but there's a point to which one ought to realise the present for what it is. There's a touching scene in Midnight in Paris where Gil, the main character, is talking to Adrianna, a character he likes. In this scene they've gone back to the 1890s and they're talking to some famous artists like Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec. Adrianna is from the 1920s. Gil is from our time, yet think the 1920s was the best time. So what happens in the scene?

Adrianna loves the 1890s. To her it's the Golden Age, not the 1920s which Gil considers the Golden Age and Adrianna considers dull. Of course, as Gil says, everybody thinks their age isn't the Golden age - the artists think the Renaissance was the Golden Age! And what about before that? The two part on good, if sad terms.

As Gil realised that despite the allure of nostalgia, it is better to accept the present for what it is, so do I. I think that elements of the past are beneficial, such as some elements of honour. Now, even convincing others of the past having any benefits is often nigh on impossible , but the attempt must be made. Of course, we must accept the present as is, while trying to integrate the beneficial elements of the past. The past had good and bad things. We've eliminated much of the bad, such as racism to an extent. Let's bring back the good.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
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jat93
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12/15/2012 3:15:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 2:47:19 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
This is an interesting topic, but I think it's a very difficult thing to explain it completely - this is a multifaceted issue even for the simplistic explanation.

I've been reading an interesting series on honour (bear with me) , with the latest post being http://artofmanliness.com... (don't mind the title, it's a good site! Lengthy article though!) . Now, honour is just one small thing but the trends the eroded traditional honour are the same as one might claim are degrading society in some senses. It's not to say that these trends are bad, but that some elements of traditional honour like a common sense of good were lacking. Some trends causing this mentioned in the article: (it is a good read in full)

1. Urbanisation and Anonymity
2. Diversity, Leading to Conflicts Between Conscience and Honour
3. Diversity, Leading to Tolerance and Relativism
4. Choosing Your Own Honour Code
5. The Shaming of Shame
6. Egalitarianism and Inclusion
7. The Rise of Psychology
8. Authenticity & Sincerity
9. Wariness of Violence in a Litigious Society

Now, that's not to say that these trends are in and of themselves bad. They're not. However, they do lead to a more subjective existence, the erosion of a common good occurred. This isn't horrible in the sense that it brings some benefits, but a common good and other benefits of honour have beneficial aspects that ought to be re-introduced into society, as the next post in the series will discuss. Really though, I think the article is a fascinating read relevant to this subject, and no, I'm not the author.

Just on another note, I love nostalgia, but there's a point to which one ought to realise the present for what it is. There's a touching scene in Midnight in Paris where Gil, the main character, is talking to Adrianna, a character he likes. In this scene they've gone back to the 1890s and they're talking to some famous artists like Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec. Adrianna is from the 1920s. Gil is from our time, yet think the 1920s was the best time. So what happens in the scene?

Adrianna loves the 1890s. To her it's the Golden Age, not the 1920s which Gil considers the Golden Age and Adrianna considers dull. Of course, as Gil says, everybody thinks their age isn't the Golden age - the artists think the Renaissance was the Golden Age! And what about before that? The two part on good, if sad terms.

As Gil realised that despite the allure of nostalgia, it is better to accept the present for what it is, so do I. I think that elements of the past are beneficial, such as some elements of honour. Now, even convincing others of the past having any benefits is often nigh on impossible , but the attempt must be made. Of course, we must accept the present as is, while trying to integrate the beneficial elements of the past. The past had good and bad things. We've eliminated much of the bad, such as racism to an extent. Let's bring back the good.

This was one of the most prescient and insightful comments I've seen in the DDO forums for a while. I guess it helped that Midnight in Paris is one of my favorite movies, and I've seen it 5 times. Golden age thinking is a fallacy; the past is always romanticized by the future by taking note of the greatness of the past while ignoring its discontents. Also, there are some struggles of human life that are basically universal, regardless of time and space.

The whole struggle of life is to be happy where you are with what you have. That's not to say the lessons of cultures past should be immediately tossed away. As you said, there are great elements of certain cultures that can and should be adapted into ours. But regardless of from where we draw inspiration, the key is to stay progressive. And I do see much of the culture of individualism as wonderful and praiseworthy, but it has some side effects when pursued in its extreme... Then again, murders have always been a part of society, so it would be as silly to focus on eradicating the concept of murder (through the state, the media, a mass movement, whatever) as it would be to try to eradicate any of humanity's neverending vices.
BennyW
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12/15/2012 3:26:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think part of the real problem is a lack of proper psychiatric care, they are too eager to throw drugs at the problem which more often than not ends up making it worse. Now I think there are a number of other issues but that is the one that sticks out to me.
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It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
Wnope
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12/15/2012 5:04:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; and the end of the world is evidently approaching"

-Assyrian clay tablet 2800 B.C
R0b1Billion
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12/18/2012 12:37:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Tulle:
... people were saying gun control won't work because there will be a market for them anyway (in the US). Well that's the first problem.

So you believe the market for guns is the problem... Wouldn't a person like this still be able to commit an atrocity without guns?

Harry
.. how many innocent lives a year would that save compared to say a ban on cars from the center of our cities? if the numbers matter then gun availability really isn't that big a problem if the numbers don't matter then what does?

The numbers really don't matter, to answer bluntly. Our culture dictates that driving autos around neighborhoods full of kids is fine, it's great. High-speed accidents, roll-overs, whatevs. Environmental damage, who cares. Road rage, low-exercise, mountains of bills... hey I need a status symbol. As long as the status symbol persists, it is unlikely anyone will ever consider externalizing auto travel to the exterior of the city.

... why do we only recently see mass shootings at schools?

Whatever may be the cause, there seems to be a bar that is being slowly pushed up. Not only the rate of occurrence, but also the magnitude. I think that the first step is admitting we have something wrong here, and we should take a good hard look at our culture as to why.

There is certainly a decline underway in manners, courtesy and concern for others...

Wnope
"Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; and the end of the world is evidently approaching"

-Assyrian clay tablet 2800 B.C

No doubt referring to Harry's statement here. There are many things which are, as the Talking Heads put it, "same as it ever was," but there is clearly a trend here, would you not say?

Chuz-life
Every time one of these happens, I stop and remind myself that for as bad as it is or was it could have been much much worse. We are a much more vulnerable society than these instances indicate. It doesn't take much imagination to see ways that it could have been worse.

Apparently our imaginations won't be necessary. Who's next to try for the front page?

Personally, I had a hard time reading this. Today they had all the faces of the students in the paper. I noticed that several dead teachers were reported to have run towards the gunshots once it started.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
R0b1Billion
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12/18/2012 1:16:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
YYW

Killing elementary school aged kids is a new line in the sand, but one which I'm concerned will be crossed the next time this happens.

The recent trend seems to suggest that. Notoriety becomes more difficult as our tolerance for bloodshed is increased.

... That would enable psychologists and criminologists to build an understanding of what kind of profile a person who would do this has.

This statement troubles me. Turning up the heat on troubled students is most likely going to make this much worse. So what you find a troubled kid just like this one. What then? Study him? Find more like him and lock them up? All I can see resulting from this process is more troubled kids and more bureaucracy.

While the issue, though, is about gun control to an extent, it's more about who can purchase and own guns then it is about preventing lawful citizens from owning guns. The calls for "concealed carrying" of teachers are patently idiotic for a host of reasons,

I've got an old charge for weed back when I was a teenager. Should I be allowed to own one?

Those teachers that ran towards the gunshots and were killed could have been armed... However the weapons were not the underlying problem here.

there is a trend that generally causes rules to become stricter: people demonstrate that they can't handle the freedoms they have so society reacts in a way that might preclude a further misuse of that freedom. In America a lot of people cling hard to what they think are the "rights endowed to them by their forefathers." Rights don't come from constitutions, they come from ongoing legal traditions that govern relationships between citizens and society as a whole.

And you are fine with increasingly constrained liberties?

It's when people behave badly that the question of liberty and security emerges.

I don't see this atrocity as a function of the gunman's "liberty."

I wouldn't go posting things like that online. Just a bit of advice.

Advice appreciated... I suppose this is an example of the liberties I should be sacrificing for the security of the nation?
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
OberHerr
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12/18/2012 1:17:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think the issue with how your looking at it is you fail to see how much better it is than earlier in human history, what with mortality rates and such.

Plus, there is always going to be highs and lows culturally.
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OberHerr
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12/18/2012 1:20:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm not saying there things arent horrible, but it has definitely been much worse. Pre-Civil Rights Movement South for instance.

And what Wnope quoted is a great example. People have thought that we're all fvcked for all of human history.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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R0b1Billion
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12/18/2012 1:29:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
JAT
Golden age thinking is a fallacy; the past is always romanticized by the future by taking note of the greatness of the past while ignoring its discontents. Also, there are some struggles of human life that are basically universal, regardless of time and space.

So the "golden age" is simply going to be when mass-shootings were less than 1 per month?

Then again, murders have always been a part of society, so it would be as silly to focus on eradicating the concept of murder (through the state, the media, a mass movement, whatever) as it would be to try to eradicate any of humanity's neverending vices.

Focusing on eradicating murder is what we're doing already - punishing criminals is how we deal with it. I think there's better approaches, and I don't agree with you and Wnope's insinuations that there is no problem.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
R0b1Billion
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12/18/2012 1:46:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 3:18:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Go back to the 18th century then. It's just milk and honey.

OK I'm going back the the 18th century. I'm bringing my fvkcing laptop though because I want to DDO about my experience...
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
R0b1Billion
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12/18/2012 1:55:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 1:20:25 AM, OberHerr wrote:
I'm not saying there things arent horrible, but it has definitely been much worse. Pre-Civil Rights Movement South for instance.

Pre-Civil Rights, blacks are slaves. Post-Civil Rights, they are on unemployment or in jail. Which one would you rather be?

And what Wnope quoted is a great example. People have thought that we're all fvcked for all of human history.

We're not invincible either.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
reddj2
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12/25/2012 2:42:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 1:55:07 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 12/18/2012 1:20:25 AM, OberHerr wrote:
I'm not saying there things arent horrible, but it has definitely been much worse. Pre-Civil Rights Movement South for instance.

Pre-Civil Rights, blacks are slaves. Post-Civil Rights, they are on unemployment or in jail. Which one would you rather be?

And what Wnope quoted is a great example. People have thought that we're all fvcked for all of human history.

We're not invincible either.
still free.
Chuz-Life
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12/25/2012 2:47:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 10:35:17 AM, Koopin wrote:
inb4 someone says "because of violent video games."

This: http://www.debate.org...
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Df0512
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12/26/2012 8:59:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think that the gov knows new gun laws wont help, but they are desperate to do something. I mean what real defense does anyone have if a crazy guy decides to go unload a clip in some random restaurant. There isn't much a unsuspecting citizen can do against a guy with an assault rifle. But you have to admit, if he were armed with a bat instead of a assault rifle, there would have been less damage. Even with that in mind I still don't think new gun laws would really help. People would still be able to get those guns if they really wanted to.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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12/26/2012 2:18:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think it's all due to a lack of the teaching of objective morals, and a separation from God. The further we get from the Bible the worse things get. Teach kids that they're nothing but an animal, and the highest power they have to worry about is their parents, and they'll end up acting like animals.

The state of society today is the result of failed liberal policies, yet so many people can't see that, so we continue to trend in the direction of social liberalism. Insanity begets insanity.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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12/26/2012 2:28:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/26/2012 2:18:30 PM, medic0506 wrote:
I think it's all due to a lack of the teaching of objective morals, and a separation from God. The further we get from the Bible the worse things get. Teach kids that they're nothing but an animal, and the highest power they have to worry about is their parents, and they'll end up acting like animals.

Except when you look at non-religious people they aren't going around raping each other. We're for the most part normal. And you can't just say dat Bible is the sure-fire way to societal affluence. Look at the state of Church/Papal control during the Middle Ages. Most everyone was religious but sh1t still sucked amirite?

The state of society today is the result of failed liberal policies, yet so many people can't see that, so we continue to trend in the direction of social liberalism. Insanity begets insanity.

Substantiation?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
medic0506
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12/26/2012 2:58:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/26/2012 2:28:19 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 12/26/2012 2:18:30 PM, medic0506 wrote:
I think it's all due to a lack of the teaching of objective morals, and a separation from God. The further we get from the Bible the worse things get. Teach kids that they're nothing but an animal, and the highest power they have to worry about is their parents, and they'll end up acting like animals.

Except when you look at non-religious people they aren't going around raping each other. We're for the most part normal. And you can't just say dat Bible is the sure-fire way to societal affluence. Look at the state of Church/Papal control during the Middle Ages. Most everyone was religious but sh1t still sucked amirite?

This gets mentioned everytime someone mentions religion and it's silly. That was an entirely different, and much more uncivilized culture, so it has no bearing on the people of today.

The state of society today is the result of failed liberal policies, yet so many people can't see that, so we continue to trend in the direction of social liberalism. Insanity begets insanity.

Substantiation?

The changes I've seen in my lifetime make it obvious to me.

Even in the 60's and 70's, we still had some semblance of morality. Kids were afraid to cross their parents because they knew they'd get their butts whipped, and most kids were raised by both parents who were married. I'd say that the change correlates with kicking God out of schools in favor of evolutionary indoctrination. Then we have the decline of the family brought about by the ERA, legalized baby-killing, no-fault divorces, child support and welfare which encourages single parenting. Then we have the end of any effective morals legislation, as well as judicial activism, which clears the way for pretty much anything. Soon we'll have gay and plural marriage, legalized drugs and prostitution, and who knows what else. All these things are the effects of policies of the liberals, coming back to bite us in the behind, yet we continue down the same road.
socialpinko
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12/26/2012 10:17:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/26/2012 2:58:38 PM, medic0506 wrote:

This gets mentioned everytime someone mentions religion and it's silly. That was an entirely different, and much more uncivilized culture, so it has no bearing on the people of today.

You're saying society is degrading because of lack of religion. My counterexample (and your response in fact) clearly show that there is more to it than that. People can be religious *and* uncivilized. People can be non-religious and civilized.

The changes I've seen in my lifetime make it obvious to me.

Even in the 60's and 70's, we still had some semblance of morality. Kids were afraid to cross their parents because they knew they'd get their butts whipped,

Ah yes who wouldn't want to go back to the days of physical abuse against children who dared not to accept spoon-fed doctrines fro their parents.

and most kids were raised by both parents who were married. I'd say that the change correlates with kicking God out of schools in favor of evolutionary indoctrination.

"Indoctrinating" children with evolution is bad but striking them for speaking out is fine and dandy. Got it.

Then we have the decline of the family brought about by the ERA, legalized baby-killing, no-fault divorces, child support and welfare which encourages single parenting. Then we have the end of any effective morals legislation, as well as judicial activism, which clears the way for pretty much anything. Soon we'll have gay and plural marriage, legalized drugs and prostitution, and who knows what else. All these things are the effects of policies of the liberals, coming back to bite us in the behind, yet we continue down the same road.

No substantiation on why those are bad things. Laws against prostitution/drugs don't eradicate them (and besides that it's their business what they do with their bodies. I don't see conservatives lining up behind Bloomberg's cup-size restrictions) and I fail to see anything wrong with plural/gay marriage. If it gets your panties in a bunch that's your business but you can't just expect everyone else to share in your prejudices.

Also lol @ abortion causing single parenting. Only from conservatives amirite?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
J1Lawrence
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2/12/2013 9:28:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Society has been degrading rapidly. Humans in general common sense and moral feelings have depleting and there is no sign of regeneration. We are becoming more and more selfish with every passing day. The standards are set so high that even average is looked at as a bad thing. This may not be for every society but for America I am positive it is. As an American driver I have the horrible pleasure of witnessing the rude and ignorant people who grace the world with having their license each day. It seems as if people once they get in a car think its a protective shell around them. When in fact they are truly wrong. We all need to change, become more selfless instead of selfish. We need to work among each other in order to build a stronger more unified world. Competition between countries? this is ridiculous we need to unite our differences. We are all on the same planet at the same time so instead of competing we should value and praise our limited amount of time we all share on this adventure. We have the ability to do anything when the mind is challenged. Please world wake up and stop being stupid. There is a lot to change and it has to be made. - For Love Of The World & The Human Race
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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2/12/2013 12:38:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
One of the most troubling signs of this, to me, is people's inability to take anything seriously any more. People laugh at poetry, they laugh at opera, they laugh at any genuine expression of deep, visceral emotion. I think that this sort of attitude causes a deep sense of alienation, especially amongst intelligent people who are eager to express themselves. Camus described what I'm talking about perfectly in 'The Plague':

"If, by some chance, one of us tried to unburden himself or to say something about his feelings, the reply he got, whatever it might be, usually wounded him. And then it dawned on him that he and the man with him weren't talking about the same thing. For while he himself spoke from the depths of long days of brooding upon his personal distress, and the image he had tried to impart had been slowly shaped and proved in the fires of passion and regret, this meant nothing to the man to whom he was speaking, who pictured a conventional emotion, a grief that is traded on the marketplace, mass-produced."

Everything is trivialized in our time, nothing is serious or worthy of grave contemplation. Everything can be laughed at or dismissed, and one is viewed as strange if one refuses to do so. This engenders a profound fear of honest communication, and I think that this is at the root of our current cultural malaise. The zeitgeist of my generation unfortunately contains a healthy dose of cruel ridicule and defensive self-repression.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
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2/12/2013 3:00:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/26/2012 10:17:16 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 12/26/2012 2:58:38 PM, medic0506 wrote:

This gets mentioned everytime someone mentions religion and it's silly. That was an entirely different, and much more uncivilized culture, so it has no bearing on the people of today.

You're saying society is degrading because of lack of religion. My counterexample (and your response in fact) clearly show that there is more to it than that. People can be religious *and* uncivilized. People can be non-religious and civilized.

Look, when the cultural capital of rome crashes, their huge army, their democratic system, their scientific discoveries, a disorginization of religion, s*** is going to go down fast.

The changes I've seen in my lifetime make it obvious to me.

Even in the 60's and 70's, we still had some semblance of morality. Kids were afraid to cross their parents because they knew they'd get their butts whipped,

Ah yes who wouldn't want to go back to the days of physical abuse against children who dared not to accept spoon-fed doctrines fro their parents.

And the days when we could leave our doors unlocked?

I dunno, wasn't around then.

and most kids were raised by both parents who were married. I'd say that the change correlates with kicking God out of schools in favor of evolutionary indoctrination.

"Indoctrinating" children with evolution is bad but striking them for speaking out is fine and dandy. Got it.

(Claps)

Then we have the decline of the family brought about by the ERA, legalized baby-killing, no-fault divorces, child support and welfare which encourages single parenting. Then we have the end of any effective morals legislation, as well as judicial activism, which clears the way for pretty much anything. Soon we'll have gay and plural marriage, legalized drugs and prostitution, and who knows what else. All these things are the effects of policies of the liberals, coming back to bite us in the behind, yet we continue down the same road.

No substantiation on why those are bad things. Laws against prostitution/drugs don't eradicate them (and besides that it's their business what they do with their bodies. I don't see conservatives lining up behind Bloomberg's cup-size restrictions)

Hah, I would.
and I fail to see anything wrong with plural/gay marriage. If it gets your panties in a bunch that's your business but you can't just expect everyone else to share in your prejudices.

Exactly, which is why we posted it here.

Also lol @ abortion causing single parenting. Only from conservatives amirite?

That only time will tell.
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innomen
Posts: 10,052
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2/14/2013 3:55:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 10:24:34 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
While the Dems and Reps point fingers at each other over gun-control, like idiots, perhaps we should look at why a man decides to attack a group of small children. Guns are only a tertiary issue here IMO.

I'm losing count of how many shootings we've had this year in this country. We have to be approaching 10 now... Why is this trend accelerating? Can anyone admit that things are getting worse?

We won't admit the environment is getting worse, so I have a strong feeling will will also turn the same ignorant attitude towards our culture. We are so arrogant and naive, to think we can "handle" this issue through gun legislation (dems propose stricter control, reps want more guns in the hands of citizens). We have this incessant subjectivity about us, refusing to acknowledge that it is our own selfishness that causes people to lose control in this way.

What else would we expect? Interpersonal interactions are being readily replaced by electronic communication. The family-unit is falling away, and I don't mean just the nuclear family, I mean the macro-scale community "family" where you associate and help out your neighbors as opposed to ignore them (I've talked about this before on DDO). We are becoming more materialistic and less concerned with ethics... We are working more menial-labor positions (more hours as well as more jobs) in order to continue producing more products and services, which we are absolutely obsessed with. It is becoming more complicated to remove stress from our lives as more and more is put on our plate. Our freedoms are degrading further each decade that passes as employers fight to compete with each other economically and we get caught in the middle. Rules are getting stricter, hours are getting longer, and the American worker is truly becoming a slave in all senses of the word.

We should not be perplexed at mass-shootings, we should be expecting it. We should not be talking about guns, as this guy would have created a tragic event even if he rushed in with a baseball bat. Hell, if I was so-inclined, I could knock off dozens of small children with nothing more than a stick before I was stopped... GUNS ARE NOT THE ISSUE, PEOPLE.

Rob, out of curiosity, were you to read this ten years ago, what would you have thought of the post? Assuming the issues were relevant, what would you say about the tone of the post?