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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/18/2009 4:25:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I'm writing a paper in the library right now. I chose to do it here as opposed to at home where I have roommates, because I can't concentrate when people are talking or if there's music (with words) on. Everything was going well until 2 black guys showed up and started chatting. Then a 3rd and a 4th black guy came by, and now it's just a big clusterphuck of ebonics (and no, they're not doing a project together).

Similarly, this happens when I go to do my work in the computer lab. Despite the huge signs that say NO TALKING, I've noticed that people never seem to abide by this rule. Perhaps most annoyingly of all, some people even answer their cell phones and carry on a loud and pointless conversation right in the lab! These people always seem to be black.

This is something that I've noticed throughout my 4 years of college, and perhaps even before that in my HS. Although there were only 2 black individuals in my graduating class, whenever their seemed to be a noise disruption in a really disrespectful situation (loud rudeness), the perpetrators always seemed to be African American.

Now I am not a bigot or a racist. I'm not intolerant, nor do I believe that blacks and whites are inherently different in character, deserving of different rights and privileges, etc. One of my very best friends is black - I have a lot of black friends - I don't discriminate, and I don't preach or live by any type of racial hate. However, these observations made by myself and others must count for something. I'm not making this stuff up, nor am I discriminatory in my observations -- It's not that I simply "don't notice" or "don't care" if white people are doing the talking. Hell, I get pissed off at them too!

The point here is that I wonder why whenever there seems to be unnecessary (and often prohibited) noise pollution, it's always coming from black people. I hate that. I'm not the only one around in these situations, and I feel that these occurrences foster unethical bigotry in other people. Even my black friends make comments like, "Of course it has to be the black kids disrupting the entire class!" I know exactly how they feel; people use the homos in @ss-less chaps frolicking about at Gay Pride Parades as the supposed representation for the gay community all the time. Ugh.

Bottom line: You can't use the actions of a few to represent or make assumptions about an entire group. Still, these actions verify and continue to legitimize unfortunate stereotypes. At least those who don't want to see homos in @ss-less chaps don't have to go to the parade to see it; in the situations that I have described, these individuals have forced us to endure their rudeness, and subsequently most people are too scared (for whatever reason - lol) to say anything, which never seems to be the case with the gays.

Anyway, I guess I'm just distracted and complaining about it :)
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Xer
Posts: 7,776
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10/18/2009 4:32:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Haha, I have the same feelings. Blacks and hispanics always seem to be the most disruptive, loud, and erm,,, stupid members of school. But if you ever say this out loud, YOU ARE A RACIST!!!11!
studentathletechristian8
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10/18/2009 4:37:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I also agree with the both of you. In the cafeteria, whenever there's a big noise or someone screaming, it's either coming from a football table full of black guys or from a freshman girl table with three extremely loud and rambunxious girls. In the hallways, whenever there's screaming or yelling, I turn around, and it's a black guy doing it. I never see whites at my school doing that. I'm not racist, but there seems to be a pattern.
studentathletechristian8
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10/18/2009 4:40:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/18/2009 4:38:33 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 10/18/2009 4:32:39 PM, Nags wrote:
But if you ever say this out loud, YOU ARE A RACIST!!!11!

Bingo.

Lol. L, I thought you were online "1 hour ago."
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/18/2009 5:00:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I appear offline all the time lol. The wife thinks I'm doing my paper right now; not meddling around on DDO :P
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PoeJoe
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10/18/2009 5:15:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Not saying anyone here is guilty of this. But patterns don't justify generalizations, and personal observation can be biased.

For example, it's one thing to say disruptive students tend to be Hispanic or black. It's an entirely other thing to say that Hispanic or black tend to be disruptive. Even the first statement is questionable.
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Xer
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10/18/2009 5:22:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/18/2009 5:15:43 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
Not saying anyone here is guilty of this. But patterns don't justify generalizations, and personal observation can be biased.

For example, it's one thing to say disruptive students tend to be Hispanic or black. It's an entirely other thing to say that Hispanic or black tend to be disruptive. Even the first statement is questionable.

Three people on this thread have observed the same exact thing and I'm sure you have observed the same thing. Patterns usually do justify generalizations, as generalizations are based mostly on patterns. Also, I'd like to point out that the vast majority of the juveniles and the majority of the prison population is black and hispanic. It may sound racist or wrong, but it's the truth. The truth sometimes hurts, but you have to deal with it.
Ragnar_Rahl
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10/18/2009 5:24:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/18/2009 5:00:22 PM, theLwerd wrote:
I appear offline all the time lol. The wife thinks I'm doing my paper right now; not meddling around on DDO :P

What sort of punishment will you be getting when she reads this post?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Danielle
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10/18/2009 5:26:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/18/2009 5:15:43 PM, PoeJoe wrote:


For example, it's one thing to say disruptive students tend to be Hispanic or black. It's an entirely other thing to say that Hispanic or black tend to be disruptive.

I agree with the 1st sentence, if the words "in my experience" can be added to it. I don't with the 2nd. Don't straw man me :)
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Danielle
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10/18/2009 5:26:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/18/2009 5:24:14 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 10/18/2009 5:00:22 PM, theLwerd wrote:
I appear offline all the time lol. The wife thinks I'm doing my paper right now; not meddling around on DDO :P

What sort of punishment will you be getting when she reads this post?

I can't wait to find out.
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TheSkeptic
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10/18/2009 5:28:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
It probably has something to do with the African-American culture, as opposed to anything else (if you're wondering and not asking a rhetorical question :P).
Ragnar_Rahl
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10/18/2009 5:38:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Being noisy was a good way to piss off slaveowners back in the day. Being Christian was a good way to be punished less. Holding noisy Christian ceremonies was a good way to piss off slaveowners without being punished, and what slave wouldn't want to do that?

Given the traditional nature of churches, such a thing once started stays almost by accident. And given the importance of churches as a cultural center, one can expect that those subject to social influences, those who like to conform to expectations, learn noise=good and apply it in whatever context they can.

Of course, it's only a hypothesis.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Maikuru
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10/18/2009 9:25:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
This is definitely a matter of perspective. Growing up in a hispanic household, loud and flamboyant conversations were the norm. My middle and high school experiences only reinforced this pattern, as the black and latino students were by far the noisiest and most disruptive. In fact, I was often mocked and chastised at both home and school for being too quiet and thus "acting white."

Howeverrrrrrrrrrrr, the exact opposite was the case at college. The only students I ever observed being visibly disruptive and disrespectful in classes were now white. Now I don't know if it's because we felt lucky to be there or what but my ethnic friends and I had suddenly become the normal students surrounded by a noisy caucasian invasion haha.

My point is, these generalizations are just that. One's setting obviously has a lot to do with what behaviors they feel comfortable exhibiting. I wouldn't discount cultural differences playing a (probably significant) role in this, but it's hardly across the board. At this point, I'm as wary in a library of groups of white guys as I am of black ones. Now, movie theaters are a different story =P
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Cody_Franklin
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10/18/2009 9:39:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Reminds me of that running bit on fascism that I was subjected to for a while; the fact is, the negative stigma garnered by the fascist nations like Italy and Germany (seeing as Nazism was a subdivision of fascism) have made the idea of fascism entirely distasteful to the general population, particularly in western culture, where the pejorative use of 'fascist' has become nothing more than a political tool, which is used to sling mud at fellow candidates by conjuring mental images of brown shirts and passionate rallies.

It seems that the label of 'fascist' is used in much the same way the label 'communist' was used during the Red Scare, 'abolitionist' was used in the South before the Civil War, and 'racist/bigot/etc.' is used today.

I suppose that's all a roundabout way of agreeing with you that, while stereotypes must obviously be derived from somewhere, there's little reason that the stereotypes molded by the minority must be applied to the (hopefully) dissimilar majority; still, that doesn't discredit the stereotype as a valid look into the character of a surprisingly large handful of individuals.
Danielle
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10/20/2009 11:10:48 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/18/2009 9:25:25 PM, Maikuru wrote:
This is definitely a matter of perspective. Growing up in a hispanic household, loud and flamboyant conversations were the norm.

Same. Grew up in a 100% Italian household. Them bitches are LOUD.

Howeverrrrrrrrrrrr, the exact opposite was the case at college. The only students I ever observed being visibly disruptive and disrespectful in classes were now white. Now I don't know if it's because we felt lucky to be there or what but my ethnic friends and I had suddenly become the normal students surrounded by a noisy caucasian invasion haha.

Lol I think you've got a point. Considering where you go to school, I'd say that's a pretty fair analysis.
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Danielle
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10/20/2009 11:11:15 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
But seriously, this isn't about generalizations. This is about patterns. I'm at the library again right now, and guess what!!! >_<
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I-am-a-panda
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10/20/2009 12:28:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
From my extensive 5 day study of Chicago this July, I have come to very similar conclusions to Lwerd. On average, they were louder and seemed to need more attention. That's not to say there weren't noisy White, Hispanic or Asian people. There were so obnoxious white people and Hispanic people, but not on the same level.

I guess a response to thsi would be "LOL Irish guys always drink the most in bars". And yes, I would be in general agreeance with this, insofar as that some Americans would consider 4 drinks "hammered".
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Danielle
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10/20/2009 2:12:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
It's not just in Chicago. I travel a lot (back to NY) and you can be sure that in any city I go to for a lay-over flight, if there's someone being super loud and obnoxious, they're probably black. Now that's DEFINITELY not to say that other people aren't obnoxious (I just told this annoying @ss white girl next to me to take her cell phone call outside). However, black people seem to have no problem with being loud or obnoxious in public; no matter how hard I look at them, they NEVER seem to be bothered or even notice that they're talking at 500x the volume of everyone else in a really inappropriate situation.

On the contrary, white people are bitches and usually have to be drunk (or pretend to be drunk) in order to have the gumption to act like such a phucking idiot in a really unnecessary situation (we're not talking at the bar here, but somewhere like a library). And moreover, white people are skiddish and get nervous if you look at them funny or say something to them. Black people are seriously the biggest attention whores and most inconsiderate people around.

And LOL at these generalizations. I'm just waiting for people to call me a bigot :)
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feverish
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10/20/2009 3:09:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/20/2009 2:12:33 PM, theLwerd wrote:

And LOL at these generalizations. I'm just waiting for people to call me a bigot :)

Bigot. lol

Seriously though I think that one of the saddest things about stereotypes is that they tend to reinforce themselves, as in Maikuru's example of being criticised for "acting white". I think for a lot of people it's easier to act how others expect you to than to break with stereotyped convention.

I would also expect a correlation between poverty and the kinds of anti social behaviour described. The relative economic status of minorities would then feed into these generalisations.

R_R's church-related hypothesis is an interesting (if unconvincing) idea.
LeafRod
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10/20/2009 3:20:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/18/2009 4:32:39 PM, Nags wrote:
Haha, I have the same feelings. Blacks and hispanics always seem to be the most disruptive, loud, and erm,,, stupid members of school. But if you ever say this out loud, YOU ARE A RACIST!!!11!

The difference is that you probably are, whereas I definitely don't think theLwerd is.
Xer
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10/20/2009 4:50:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/20/2009 3:20:40 PM, LeafRod wrote:
At 10/18/2009 4:32:39 PM, Nags wrote:
Haha, I have the same feelings. Blacks and hispanics always seem to be the most disruptive, loud, and erm,,, stupid members of school. But if you ever say this out loud, YOU ARE A RACIST!!!11!

The difference is that you probably are, whereas I definitely don't think theLwerd is.

How did you possibly manage to conclude this?
Kleptin
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10/20/2009 5:57:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Blacks and Hispanics are much more social than other ethnicities in general due to upbringing and environment. Blacks and Hispanics tend to be noisier because they weren't raised with the Caucasian or Asian notion of "quiet". Their neighborhoods tend to be cramped, so their community is more close-knit. Also, in many lower income neighborhoods, kids have no safer place to play than on the sidewalk, and quiet tends to represent danger.

You should search out the nearest Asian kid and near him. I can assure you that you would be able to hear a pin drop. If it gets noisy, just follow him, he'll find a quiet spot XD
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Danielle
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10/20/2009 8:13:06 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/20/2009 5:57:31 PM, Kleptin wrote:

Their neighborhoods tend to be cramped, so their community is more close-knit. Also, in many lower income neighborhoods, kids have no safer place to play than on the sidewalk, and quiet tends to represent danger.

You're grasping at straws here, Kleptin. There's a big difference between being on the streets in the hood and being at a college campus library. Since the odds of them getting jumped in the biography section are slim to none, I see no reason why they should sense "danger" and feel the need to be noisy. At 20 years old, you'd think that one would have learned to adapt to their environment by then, eh? Or does the world revolve around low-income individuals? Besides, this doesn't provide a decent explanation for the annoying white kids. The point is that obnoxious people in general suck, and I find the reality that most times it is the black kids who are being obnoxious to be sociologically interesting :)
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Kleptin
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10/21/2009 10:03:04 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/20/2009 8:13:06 PM, theLwerd wrote:
You're grasping at straws here, Kleptin. There's a big difference between being on the streets in the hood and being at a college campus library. Since the odds of them getting jumped in the biography section are slim to none, I see no reason why they should sense "danger" and feel the need to be noisy. At 20 years old, you'd think that one would have learned to adapt to their environment by then, eh? Or does the world revolve around low-income individuals? Besides, this doesn't provide a decent explanation for the annoying white kids. The point is that obnoxious people in general suck, and I find the reality that most times it is the black kids who are being obnoxious to be sociologically interesting :)

The way I see it, our learned sociocultural activities don't just manifest themselves in response to the environment, it's an intrinsic part of their personality. I definitely see the same pattern in my day-to-day life and I just settled into the explanation of "Well, that's just how they were raised"

This is by no means a suitable excuse for that type of behavior, but just an explanation.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
I-am-a-panda
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10/21/2009 11:36:07 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Black people, on average, come from a lower income family. And in general, a lower income family is more unruly and has more children, which makes it usual for them to shut and be generally disruptive in laces where multipel races are present.

Again, low income white people can be the same. But because the average income is lower for black people they just have to accept this fact and stop calling people racist when both sides are presented.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
1-2-3
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10/21/2009 5:07:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Sometimes white people look right through me. I notice that they change their tone of voice when they speak to me. When they notice that I am probably smarter then they are the condescending rhetoric peeks through. All my life I had to act a different way around white people because they could be dangerous. Especially white women. My grandfather tells me of a time when a black man had to look at the ground when he talked to a white woman. And only if they addressed us first. It was a tightrope walk.

For decade after decade we were beaten raped and forced to work for free in terrible conditions. When they were finished with us the set us free into a mindfield. Then we got blamed for speaking wrong, for being lazy, for wanting to have sex with white women. We were still hung and beaten. Organizations popped-up all over the place to keep us away, some to keep us away for good.

Our identity was stolen. I heard a white man say once, "Look at that nigger dressed like a Muslim and readin' the Koran, they always gotta be copyin' offa someone." Damn I thought. You people know what country your great-great granma came from and what boat she came on. I don't know none of that and now I found a religion that I can identify with and some cracker comes along and claims that I'm copying.

Now we feel a little bit comfortable. Now we can relax a little. Things are loosening up a bit. Now some priveleged white girl comes along who probably had lots of stuff just handed to her (nothing wrong with that) and she's mad that a couple of blacks are making a bit of noise.

Just ask them to be quiet. They wont bite you. They'll probably smile at you because you are pretty.
Kleptin
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10/21/2009 6:37:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
While you're here, I need to ask you a question.

My ancestors build the Great Wall of China, the Imperial City, and later on, the railroads in America.

Am I allowed credit for all that craftsmanship?

I hope you see what I'm getting at here.

"Oppressed Black Man" is about as trite as "Kung Fu Asian". I know some martial arts, just as I bet you have gone through a few moments of racism directed at you. However, I am not Bruce Lee, and you have not spent decades of your life plowing fields for free.

You've been saying "we, we, we" as if though all Black people were the Borg Collective. Yes, Black people have come a long way in terms of their fight for assimilation (Let's not get bogged down by civil rights and racism, the term is ASSIMILATION) and things did just "start to settle".

Tell me, what does that have to do with you? Aren't you reaping the benefits of your ancestors just like each and every single one of us is reaping the benefits of our ancestors? Stereotypes change. Black people aren't really looked down on anymore. They're feared.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
1-2-3
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10/22/2009 6:35:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/21/2009 6:37:12 PM, Kleptin wrote:
While you're here, I need to ask you a question.

My ancestors build the Great Wall of China, the Imperial City, and later on, the railroads in America.

Am I allowed credit for all that craftsmanship?

I hope you see what I'm getting at here.

"Oppressed Black Man" is about as trite as "Kung Fu Asian". I know some martial arts, just as I bet you have gone through a few moments of racism directed at you. However, I am not Bruce Lee, and you have not spent decades of your life plowing fields for free.

You've been saying "we, we, we" as if though all Black people were the Borg Collective. Yes, Black people have come a long way in terms of their fight for assimilation (Let's not get bogged down by civil rights and racism, the term is ASSIMILATION) and things did just "start to settle".

Tell me, what does that have to do with you? Aren't you reaping the benefits of your ancestors just like each and every single one of us is reaping the benefits of our ancestors? Stereotypes change. Black people aren't really looked down on anymore. They're feared.

"They're feared." Since you speak for yourself and nobody else, I will read that to say, "I, Kleptin, fear black people."

Fear ~ dismay, dread, fright, horror, panic, terror.
A strong and unpleasant emotion caused by expectation or presence of danger.

A little boy curses at his teacher. Teacher scolds boy. Boy knows he is wrong. Teacher calls father. Boy is now fearful of his father. Boy feels guilty.

Why do you feel guilty, Kleptin?

You assume too much in your post. Your benighted observations concerning race relations in the USA speak volumes about your experiences, or lack thereof.

"Racism is a sickness unto death." ~Martin Luther King Jr.