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Is This Appropriate? Sandy Hook and Religion

wrichcirw
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12/19/2012 8:58:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
There's an op-ed on CNN:

Six things I don't want to hear after the Sandy Hook massacre
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com...

I list them in order:

1. "It was God"s will."
2. "Jesus called the children home."
3. "After death, there is the resurrection."
4. "This was God"s judgment."
5. "This happened because America is too secular."
6. "Guns don"t kill people, people kill people."

To me, #5 looks a lot like Malcolm X's statement about chickens coming home to roost after the Kennedy assassination.

Is this kind of critique appropriate? Your thoughts?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Oryus
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12/19/2012 9:11:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
No. This kind of victim-blaming is absurd and baseless. People who blame the victim by invoking god's will are moronic. As an atheist, they are moronic for not seeing that this is simple senseless violence and you can't retroactively explain it with some made-up vengeance on the part of a god. From a religious perspective, they are moronic for thinking god would want something like that to happen and also for thinking that they know and understand god's will. I'm not sure what else to say about it.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
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Oryus
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12/19/2012 6:01:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 5:58:49 PM, tulle wrote:
He hit number 6 on the head.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
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: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
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imabench
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12/19/2012 6:09:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Mike Huckabee went on air saying that number 5 was really the reason for the tragedy
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tulle
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12/19/2012 6:12:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 8:58:10 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

1. "It was God"s will."
2. "Jesus called the children home."
3. "After death, there is the resurrection."
4. "This was God"s judgment."

These are inappropriate. Aside from the fact that not everyone believes in God, whether you are a theist or an atheist this is no comfort at all. Whether or not any of these are in fact true, it doesn't lessen the loss one feels, it only undermines it. As though you have no right to be angry or sad when something happens to you. Diagnosed with cancer? It was God's will. Someone broke into your home? It was in God's plan. Someone killed your child? Jesus called them home. Like GTFOOOO

5. "This happened because America is too secular."

This is the one that is so ridiculous it's not even funny. Aside from being inappropriate, it's just incredible illogical. Religion is in a ton of places that have sh!tty things happening. The thing people are saying now is "This is what happens when you take God out of schools". No, this is what happens when a crazy fvck is given a gun.

If religion prevents bad things from happening, please explain the Middle East and most of Africa.
yang.
GeoLaureate8
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12/19/2012 6:39:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 5:58:49 PM, tulle wrote:
He hit number 6 on the head.

You believe we should blame spoons for obesity.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tulle
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12/19/2012 6:44:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 6:39:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 12/19/2012 5:58:49 PM, tulle wrote:
He hit number 6 on the head.

You believe we should blame spoons for obesity.

You can eat without spoons. You can't shoot people without a gun. Can you honestly say if faced with the choice of being attacked by someone with a knife and someone with a gun you would choose the person with the gun? Can you dodge a bullet?
yang.
Oryus
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12/19/2012 6:51:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 6:45:30 PM, tulle wrote:
Though I recognize that arguing guns with an American on an American website is absolutely pointless for me.

Pretty much. But we admire your spunk.

THEY CAN'T TAKE ARR GUNS!!!

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net...
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
popculturepooka
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12/19/2012 6:55:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 6:45:30 PM, tulle wrote:
Though I recognize that arguing guns with an American on an American website is absolutely pointless for me.

I lol'd.
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BLACK LIVES MATTER!
tulle
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12/19/2012 7:05:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Interesting, though, that the American wars are about weapons of mas destruction... WMD don't kill people, people kill people ;)
yang.
GeoLaureate8
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12/19/2012 7:18:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 6:45:30 PM, tulle wrote:
Though I recognize that arguing guns with an American on an American website is absolutely pointless for me.

I don't even own guns. This is about pure logic. Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people including 20 children with a BOMB made of legal items: fertalizer, race fuel, and a truck.

Fact: If the staff was armed, the children would still be alive today. The psychopath was so cowardly, soon as he saw an armed officer he committed suicide.

Fact: You want people to be defenseless so criminals can only get guns. Haven't we learned our lesson with prohibition and marijuana? Look at Mexico. Guns are banned but drug cartels still shoot people. That's what you want. Hitler disarmed the Jews before marching them into camps. If the Jews had guns, they wouldn't be voluntarily taking their clothes off walking to the chambers. Gun ban = government monopoly of power.

You want only governments and military to have guns, the number one killers in the last century. This type of thinking is INSANE!

Your ideology would make it impossible for George Washington to defeat the British empire tyranny.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tulle
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12/19/2012 7:27:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 7:18:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

I don't even own guns. This is about pure logic. Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people including 20 children with a BOMB made of legal items: fertalizer, race fuel, and a truck.


Okay? The parts =/= the whole. Nobody is arguing that metal or other parts of the gun should be illegal.

Fact: If the staff was armed, the children would still be alive today. The psychopath was so cowardly, soon as he saw an armed officer he committed suicide.


Fact: If the psychopath didn't have a gun in the first place, the children may still be alive today.

Fact: You want people to be defenseless so criminals can only get guns. Haven't we learned our lesson with prohibition and marijuana? Look at Mexico. Guns are banned but drug cartels still shoot people. That's what you want. Hitler disarmed the Jews before marching them into camps. If the Jews had guns, they wouldn't be voluntarily taking their clothes off walking to the chambers. Gun ban = government monopoly of power.


I'm well aware that the culture is so ingrained it would be nearly impossible to get rid of the guns. But that's a problem with your culture, not the banning of guns. Besides, the quote you responded to initially was that "people kill people with guns" which is fact, and had nothing to do with actually banning them.

You want only governments and military to have guns, the number one killers in the last century. This type of thinking is INSANE!

Your ideology would make it impossible for George Washington to defeat the British empire tyranny.

lol That's funny because it's so archaic. You guys are still afraid of the British coming?

What do you think of my previous post about WMDs?
yang.
darkkermit
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12/19/2012 7:40:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'll add the liberal edition:

1. This only shows we need to have stricter gun control
2. All the violence in the media and video games is caused this
3. This just shows we need to ban guns
4. We need to take mental diseases more serious
Open borders debate:
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Oryus
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12/19/2012 7:42:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 7:40:19 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I'll add the liberal edition:

1. This only shows we need to have stricter gun control
2. All the violence in the media and video games is caused this
3. This just shows we need to ban guns
4. We need to take mental diseases more serious

Well, we certainly do need to take mental diseases more serious. Homeless and imprisoned people are disproportionately people with mental illnesses.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Mirza
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12/19/2012 7:44:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 7:40:19 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I'll add the liberal edition:

1. This only shows we need to have stricter gun control
2. All the violence in the media and video games is caused this
3. This just shows we need to ban guns
4. We need to take mental diseases more serious
5. It's Conservatives' fault!!!
darkkermit
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12/19/2012 7:47:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 7:42:27 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/19/2012 7:40:19 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I'll add the liberal edition:

1. This only shows we need to have stricter gun control
2. All the violence in the media and video games is caused this
3. This just shows we need to ban guns
4. We need to take mental diseases more serious

Well, we certainly do need to take mental diseases more serious. Homeless and imprisoned people are disproportionately people with mental illnesses.

I wouldn't really classify most mental illnesses as real illnesses, due to the subjective and cultural reasons people consider others to be "ill".

If imprisoned and homeless are imprisoned and homeless because their thought pattern make it difficult to adapt to modern life, well duh, that's why they're imprisoned or homeless.
Open borders debate:
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Oryus
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12/19/2012 7:50:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 7:47:38 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/19/2012 7:42:27 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/19/2012 7:40:19 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I'll add the liberal edition:

1. This only shows we need to have stricter gun control
2. All the violence in the media and video games is caused this
3. This just shows we need to ban guns
4. We need to take mental diseases more serious

Well, we certainly do need to take mental diseases more serious. Homeless and imprisoned people are disproportionately people with mental illnesses.

I wouldn't really classify most mental illnesses as real illnesses, due to the subjective and cultural reasons people consider others to be "ill".

If imprisoned and homeless are imprisoned and homeless because their thought pattern make it difficult to adapt to modern life, well duh, that's why they're imprisoned or homeless.

Yeah, no kidding. But isn't it idiotic to punish people for something they can't help rather than attempt to work out an actual solution to the problem?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
darkkermit
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12/19/2012 7:53:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 7:50:53 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/19/2012 7:47:38 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/19/2012 7:42:27 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/19/2012 7:40:19 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I'll add the liberal edition:

1. This only shows we need to have stricter gun control
2. All the violence in the media and video games is caused this
3. This just shows we need to ban guns
4. We need to take mental diseases more serious

Well, we certainly do need to take mental diseases more serious. Homeless and imprisoned people are disproportionately people with mental illnesses.

I wouldn't really classify most mental illnesses as real illnesses, due to the subjective and cultural reasons people consider others to be "ill".

If imprisoned and homeless are imprisoned and homeless because their thought pattern make it difficult to adapt to modern life, well duh, that's why they're imprisoned or homeless.

Yeah, no kidding. But isn't it idiotic to punish people for something they can't help rather than attempt to work out an actual solution to the problem?

I don't believe in free will, so in a sense nobody's actions can help their own actions.
Open borders debate:
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Oryus
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12/19/2012 8:34:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 7:53:22 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/19/2012 7:50:53 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/19/2012 7:47:38 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 12/19/2012 7:42:27 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/19/2012 7:40:19 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I'll add the liberal edition:

1. This only shows we need to have stricter gun control
2. All the violence in the media and video games is caused this
3. This just shows we need to ban guns
4. We need to take mental diseases more serious

Well, we certainly do need to take mental diseases more serious. Homeless and imprisoned people are disproportionately people with mental illnesses.

I wouldn't really classify most mental illnesses as real illnesses, due to the subjective and cultural reasons people consider others to be "ill".

If imprisoned and homeless are imprisoned and homeless because their thought pattern make it difficult to adapt to modern life, well duh, that's why they're imprisoned or homeless.

Yeah, no kidding. But isn't it idiotic to punish people for something they can't help rather than attempt to work out an actual solution to the problem?

I don't believe in free will, so in a sense nobody's actions can help their own actions.

Well, that's convenient.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/19/2012 8:53:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 7:27:43 PM, tulle wrote:
At 12/19/2012 7:18:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I don't even own guns. This is about pure logic. Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people including 20 children with a BOMB made of legal items: fertalizer, race fuel, and a truck.


Okay? The parts =/= the whole. Nobody is arguing that metal or other parts of the gun should be illegal.

The point is, gun bans didn't stop Timothy McVeigh.

Fact: If the staff was armed, the children would still be alive today. The psychopath was so cowardly, soon as he saw an armed officer he committed suicide.

Fact: If the psychopath didn't have a gun in the first place, the children may still be alive today.

Fact: Connecticut is the 4th most strict state on gun control. Lanza tried to buy guns 3 times and was denied all three times because the background check saw that he was mentally unstable. The handguns he did get a hold of were also illegal. Murder is illegal. Everything he did was illegal. He didn't use a single legal gun. Your gun ban worked real well didn't it. Look at Chicago. Gun ban, high homicide rate.

The real failure was his mother knowing her son was unstable and not having her guns locked in a safe like a normal, responsible, sane person would do.

Fact: You want people to be defenseless so criminals can only get guns. Haven't we learned our lesson with prohibition and marijuana? Look at Mexico. Guns are banned but drug cartels still shoot people. That's what you want. Hitler disarmed the Jews before marching them into camps. If the Jews had guns, they wouldn't be voluntarily taking their clothes off walking to the chambers. Gun ban = government monopoly of power.

I'm well aware that the culture is so ingrained it would be nearly impossible to get rid of the guns. But that's a problem with your culture, not the banning of guns. Besides, the quote you responded to initially was that "people kill people with guns" which is fact, and had nothing to do with actually banning them.

You didn't address the government monopoly of power that comes with total gun ban.

You want only governments and military to have guns, the number one killers in the last century. This type of thinking is INSANE!

Your ideology would make it impossible for George Washington to defeat the British empire tyranny.

lol That's funny because it's so archaic. You guys are still afraid of the British coming?

Tyranny still exists today. Have you seen the news lately?

What do you think of my previous post about WMDs?

WMD's are a ticking time bomb. They aren't useful for self-defense. They are "weapons of mass destruction." Guns are "weapons of personal self-defense and sport."

See the difference.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Marauder
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12/19/2012 9:32:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 8:58:10 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
There's an op-ed on CNN:

Six things I don't want to hear after the Sandy Hook massacre
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com...

I list them in order:

1. "It was God"s will."
2. "Jesus called the children home."
3. "After death, there is the resurrection."
4. "This was God"s judgment."
i don't think I ever heard this stuff said after massacres, and do not think any christian should try and comfort right after a tragedy with this to the grieving famileys; the time for speaking about these aspects of the faith is some other time.

although for others not directly involved or struck by the massacre, I guess if a preacher chose to preach in tennesee somewhere about what happens after death to his congregation while this is on there minds....I guess it wouldn't be bad. Bishop Swanson once said should news that's affecting the towns hearts at the moment occur, it might be best to preach something based on the opportunity the event in question created to talk about. nothing wrong with that.
but its not good for immediate grief consoling.
5. "This happened because America is too secular."
I dont think any will say this about this event. no the conversation immediately went to 'mental disorder awareness" and 'we need to stop bulling in schools" weirdly enough.
6. "Guns don"t kill people, people kill people."
Oh I think everyone that believes this needs to start saying this right away as those on the left can be counted on to try and use this event to make new gun control laws.

But I think those on the Right need to say more than just 'guns don't kill people, people kill people", that's just a defensive statement, just trying to justify the keeping of our guns because that's a right we don't have to earn, the second the government throws out the 2 amendment in the bill of rights we are in trouble thats true. But this Tragedy should provoke action of some kind from our side of a positive kind, not just resistance to a negative crazy reaction from democrats.

we not only need to keep our guns, its time to start talking about how someone on that school campus should have been MADE to carry a gun.

Every School, and every movie theater and mall ought to have security who's soul job is to prevent events like this from happening.

Connecticut is full of gun control laws already, two more would not have stopped Adam Lanza.

but if we start pursuing School protection laws. a paid guard with a gun might have stopped Adam Lanza.

In a way its just irresponsible of us to not have people carrying guns in our most vulnerable places like schools.

you wont protect any child of mine from an adam lanza by restricting the kinds of guns I can buy or ban me from being able to get a gun.

you will make me feel safer about my child's protection though if I can know the teacher is carrying a concealed firearm.

and if the teacher isnt the kind of person you can trust with a gun around there students, then they arnt the kind of person I want teaching my kid anyway.

To me, #5 looks a lot like Malcolm X's statement about chickens coming home to roost after the Kennedy assassination.

Is this kind of critique appropriate? Your thoughts?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
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12/19/2012 9:37:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 6:09:05 PM, imabench wrote:
Mike Huckabee went on air saying that number 5 was really the reason for the tragedy

I cant remember exactly what he said but I watched him last night making the statement I think your referring and I don't think #5 is quite what he was saying in a 'cause and effect' kind of way, but my memory is hazy.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
wrichcirw
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12/19/2012 10:38:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 9:11:36 AM, Oryus wrote:
No. This kind of victim-blaming is absurd and baseless. People who blame the victim by invoking god's will are moronic. As an atheist, they are moronic for not seeing that this is simple senseless violence and you can't retroactively explain it with some made-up vengeance on the part of a god. From a religious perspective, they are moronic for thinking god would want something like that to happen and also for thinking that they know and understand god's will. I'm not sure what else to say about it.

Ok, given your argument, I'm going to assume that you meant to say YES...that we should NOT be making these kind of statements in the wake of Sandy Hook.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
darkkermit
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12/19/2012 11:14:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 6:09:05 PM, imabench wrote:
Mike Huckabee went on air saying that number 5 was really the reason for the tragedy

i remember in 2008, i actually liked huckabee as a candidate. What the fvck did I see in him.
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Oryus
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12/19/2012 11:36:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 10:38:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 12/19/2012 9:11:36 AM, Oryus wrote:
No. This kind of victim-blaming is absurd and baseless. People who blame the victim by invoking god's will are moronic. As an atheist, they are moronic for not seeing that this is simple senseless violence and you can't retroactively explain it with some made-up vengeance on the part of a god. From a religious perspective, they are moronic for thinking god would want something like that to happen and also for thinking that they know and understand god's will. I'm not sure what else to say about it.

Ok, given your argument, I'm going to assume that you meant to say YES...that we should NOT be making these kind of statements in the wake of Sandy Hook.

hahah I was responding to the title question, not the final question in the OP.
So, NO, this is not appropriate XD

That's funny....
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
bossyburrito
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12/19/2012 11:51:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 6:09:05 PM, imabench wrote:
Mike Huckabee went on air saying that number 5 was really the reason for the tragedy

I watched that on Fox along with some "expert" claiming that video games caused this.
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