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Why is it OK and not OK

sadolite
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12/28/2012 1:30:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Public schools are a govt institution. The vast majority of state prisons and all federal prisons are govt institutions.

Question: Why is it "not" OK to read a Bible or discuss the Bible in a public school and OK and encouraged in prisons? Both receive federal money both are public property. Why is the bible not banned in prisons. Why is there even a church on prison property. Why are clergy allowed to roam the halls of prisons and proselytize their faith. The separation of church and state is clear, well I guess if it fits an agenda like banning Christmas themes from public property or banning the bible from classrooms.
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bossyburrito
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12/28/2012 5:04:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Because people in prison aren't impressionable 10 year olds. I would think that you of all people would be against government brainwashing.
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DetectableNinja
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12/28/2012 2:30:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is a really good question.

However, I feel like we have to define whether these prisons are, themselves, advocating a religion, or merely providing the resources for a prisoner to seek religious counsel. This is distinguished from a school, where, contrary to public belief, students AND teachers may pray. However, the line is drawn when a public employee advocates a religion publicly to students.
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Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/28/2012 2:46:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/28/2012 1:30:17 AM, sadolite wrote:
Public schools are a govt institution. The vast majority of state prisons and all federal prisons are govt institutions.

Question: Why is it "not" OK to read a Bible or discuss the Bible in a public school and OK and encouraged in prisons? Both receive federal money both are public property. Why is the bible not banned in prisons. Why is there even a church on prison property. Why are clergy allowed to roam the halls of prisons and proselytize their faith. The separation of church and state is clear, well I guess if it fits an agenda like banning Christmas themes from public property or banning the bible from classrooms.

School children are a captive audience, as they MUST be in school, unless parents can afford private or home school. Prisoners are captive by their own choices, and religion isn't forced, neither is any particular religion encouraged.

Schools should not force religion, as it would likely be only one, to the impressionable youth, but they should allow students to partake in a prayer or Bible study at the student's behest if they wish to use an empty classroom during lunch. (No one is forced to go, and no one is affected by missing classtime)

Prisons encourage religion in an effort to make prisoners easier to deal with; if they found religion, they are more likely to resist rioting, in-fighting, and accepting that they deserve their punishment (incarceration) and hopefully better themselves.
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imabench
Posts: 21,220
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12/28/2012 2:51:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/28/2012 5:04:36 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
Because people in prison aren't impressionable 10 year olds. I would think that you of all people would be against government brainwashing.

^ this
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RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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12/28/2012 3:19:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You've got to pick your battles. Besides, take the church out of prison and you'd have mass riots on your hands.

(Get it? MASS riots? Anyone? Anyone? I'll be here all week.)
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ishallannoyyo
Posts: 1,034
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12/28/2012 3:28:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/28/2012 3:19:12 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
You've got to pick your battles. Besides, take the church out of prison and you'd have mass riots on your hands.


(Get it? MASS riots? Anyone? Anyone? I'll be here all week.)

You sir, have just gotten one subscriber.
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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12/28/2012 4:35:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/28/2012 3:26:20 PM, darkkermit wrote:
what are you talking about? Since when are bibles banned in schools?

Yeah, you can bring a Bible to school and discuss it all you want.

But technically, sadolite asked why it is "'not'" OK to bring a Bible to school etc., but 'OK' to do so in prisons.

The facts and logic in the OP are garbled to justify sodolite's conservitive paranoia.
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Oryus
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12/28/2012 6:18:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/28/2012 4:35:45 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 12/28/2012 3:26:20 PM, darkkermit wrote:
what are you talking about? Since when are bibles banned in schools?

Yeah, you can bring a Bible to school and discuss it all you want.

But technically, sadolite asked why it is "'not'" OK to bring a Bible to school etc., but 'OK' to do so in prisons.

The facts and logic in the OP are garbled to justify sodolite's conservitive paranoia.

Ha! I was JUST wondering, "why haven't I seen vbaculum around lately..." Speak of the devil...

Anyway, I tend to agree with this sentiment... If you reworded the question, sadolite, I might be able to answer it. But as of now, bibles are not banned from schools so I really have no clue what you're talking about. Also, I highly doubt if church and bible-reading is mandatory for prisoners. I'm an atheist and I'd be damn happy to go to church ANYTIME if I were in prison long term. I think I'd rather do most things than be in a prison cell full time.
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Ragnar_Rahl
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12/28/2012 6:35:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yeah, you can bring a Bible to school and discuss it all you want.
You can even be mandatorily assigned it in "literature" class, as long as it's "not to learn doctrine."

(though as the teacher who assigned it to me was homosexual, I assume in that instance the scare quotes are not needed, no doubt a different situation prevails in Kentucky).
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darkkermit
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12/28/2012 7:17:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/28/2012 6:35:26 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Yeah, you can bring a Bible to school and discuss it all you want.
You can even be mandatorily assigned it in "literature" class, as long as it's "not to learn doctrine."

(though as the teacher who assigned it to me was homosexual, I assume in that instance the scare quotes are not needed, no doubt a different situation prevails in Kentucky).

I remember actually reading excerpts from the bible in my history class.
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/28/2012 7:29:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/28/2012 1:30:17 AM, sadolite wrote:
Public schools are a govt institution. The vast majority of state prisons and all federal prisons are govt institutions.

Question: Why is it "not" OK to read a Bible or discuss the Bible in a public school and OK and encouraged in prisons? Both receive federal money both are public property. Why is the bible not banned in prisons. Why is there even a church on prison property. Why are clergy allowed to roam the halls of prisons and proselytize their faith. The separation of church and state is clear, well I guess if it fits an agenda like banning Christmas themes from public property or banning the bible from classrooms.

Because each institution has a different purpose. The bible can arguably help fill the purpose of the prison institution, while it arguably does not help fill the purpose of the school institution.
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vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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12/29/2012 2:00:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/28/2012 6:18:59 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/28/2012 4:35:45 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 12/28/2012 3:26:20 PM, darkkermit wrote:
what are you talking about? Since when are bibles banned in schools?

Yeah, you can bring a Bible to school and discuss it all you want.

But technically, sadolite asked why it is "'not'" OK to bring a Bible to school etc., but 'OK' to do so in prisons.

The facts and logic in the OP are garbled to justify sodolite's conservitive paranoia.

Ha! I was JUST wondering, "why haven't I seen vbaculum around lately..." Speak of the devil...

I've been here.. just too busy at work to converse very much. I was glad to see you come back, though.


Anyway, I tend to agree with this sentiment... If you reworded the question, sadolite, I might be able to answer it. But as of now, bibles are not banned from schools so I really have no clue what you're talking about. Also, I highly doubt if church and bible-reading is mandatory for prisoners. I'm an atheist and I'd be damn happy to go to church ANYTIME if I were in prison long term. I think I'd rather do most things than be in a prison cell full time.

If I ever got put in solitary confinement, I would want access to a Buddhist monk to teach me how to meditate. Then, if I could just find a religion that required it's devotees to eat high-quality, delicious foods, I'd be in business.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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12/29/2012 5:01:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 2:00:06 AM, vbaculum wrote:
At 12/28/2012 6:18:59 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/28/2012 4:35:45 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 12/28/2012 3:26:20 PM, darkkermit wrote:
what are you talking about? Since when are bibles banned in schools?

Yeah, you can bring a Bible to school and discuss it all you want.

But technically, sadolite asked why it is "'not'" OK to bring a Bible to school etc., but 'OK' to do so in prisons.

The facts and logic in the OP are garbled to justify sodolite's conservitive paranoia.

Ha! I was JUST wondering, "why haven't I seen vbaculum around lately..." Speak of the devil...

I've been here.. just too busy at work to converse very much. I was glad to see you come back, though.


Anyway, I tend to agree with this sentiment... If you reworded the question, sadolite, I might be able to answer it. But as of now, bibles are not banned from schools so I really have no clue what you're talking about. Also, I highly doubt if church and bible-reading is mandatory for prisoners. I'm an atheist and I'd be damn happy to go to church ANYTIME if I were in prison long term. I think I'd rather do most things than be in a prison cell full time.

If I ever got put in solitary confinement, I would want access to a Buddhist monk to teach me how to meditate. Then, if I could just find a religion that required it's devotees to eat high-quality, delicious foods, I'd be in business.

True dat... That would be preferable. Zen would be the name of the game in such a scenario and what better way to find long-term solace from one's own mind alone than through meditation?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/29/2012 5:11:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/28/2012 1:30:17 AM, sadolite wrote:
Public schools are a govt institution. The vast majority of state prisons and all federal prisons are govt institutions.

Question: Why is it "not" OK to read a Bible or discuss the Bible in a public school and OK and encouraged in prisons? Both receive federal money both are public property. Why is the bible not banned in prisons. Why is there even a church on prison property. Why are clergy allowed to roam the halls of prisons and proselytize their faith. The separation of church and state is clear, well I guess if it fits an agenda like banning Christmas themes from public property or banning the bible from classrooms.

The latter is "Ok" because our laws and regulations are each handled on an individual basis and changes in one area do not automatically ripple out and affect other areas based on principle except in rare cases.

Our laws are not guided by overarching principles which they must adhere to; they are subject to the whims of the people. If the people behave inconsistently, then our laws will be inconsistent.

I imagine, though, on a case-by-case basis you'll probably find:

A) People that are Ok with the former are Ok with the latter.
B) People that are not Ok with the former are not Ok with the latter.
C) People who feel differently about the two cases, but feel there are circumstances which warrant feeling differently.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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1/12/2013 10:28:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/28/2012 1:30:17 AM, sadolite wrote:
Public schools are a govt institution. The vast majority of state prisons and all federal prisons are govt institutions.

Question: Why is it "not" OK to read a Bible or discuss the Bible in a public school and OK and encouraged in prisons? Both receive federal money both are public property. Why is the bible not banned in prisons. Why is there even a church on prison property. Why are clergy allowed to roam the halls of prisons and proselytize their faith. The separation of church and state is clear, well I guess if it fits an agenda like banning Christmas themes from public property or banning the bible from classrooms.

The Fool: Because children have a Future.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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1/12/2013 10:42:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/28/2012 1:30:17 AM, sadolite wrote:
Public schools are a govt institution. The vast majority of state prisons and all federal prisons are govt institutions.

Question: Why is it "not" OK to read a Bible or discuss the Bible in a public school and OK and encouraged in prisons? Both receive federal money both are public property. Why is the bible not banned in prisons. Why is there even a church on prison property. Why are clergy allowed to roam the halls of prisons and proselytize their faith. The separation of church and state is clear, well I guess if it fits an agenda like banning Christmas themes from public property or banning the bible from classrooms.

Children are less able to make judgements than adults. Children are more likel to succumb to the pressure of their peers, and standing out or being "different" is like the kiss of death and no child wants that. So having Bibles in schools doesn't really give them a "choice" because if their peers are doing it, they're going to do it---whereas people in jail have a choice to read the Bible or not. Nobody is forcing prisoners to meet with clergy. They are there for those who want it or wish to have free guidance.
yang.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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1/13/2013 1:54:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Fool: Religion/Ideology, takes advantage of the weak, old, poor, ignorant and children. It is not an accident that you can repent anything you do wrong, it was written like that because they knew that people who had already sinned, would just not believe in it. I am sure many people start believing real Fast when they are on Death row. But the ideology of capital punishment is just as guilty.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL