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Legalizing marijuana

malcolmxy
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2/7/2013 4:51:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 4:09:19 PM, ZakYoungTheLibertarian wrote:
Absolutely. I also think convenience stores should be allowed to sell heroin.

Heroin should be legal under the care of a physician, just liked it was my grandma's entire life when the called it dilaudid.

I'm not sure Habib at the 7-11 down the street is ready for that kind of responsibility.
War is over, if you want it.

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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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2/7/2013 5:42:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 4:51:26 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/7/2013 4:09:19 PM, ZakYoungTheLibertarian wrote:
Absolutely. I also think convenience stores should be allowed to sell heroin.

Heroin should be legal under the care of a physician, just liked it was my grandma's entire life when the called it dilaudid.

I'm not sure Habib at the 7-11 down the street is ready for that kind of responsibility.

Better not let Habib sell alcohol if he can't responsibly sell intoxicants.
GarretKadeDupre
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2/8/2013 5:42:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 4:51:26 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/7/2013 4:09:19 PM, ZakYoungTheLibertarian wrote:
Absolutely. I also think convenience stores should be allowed to sell heroin.

Heroin should be legal under the care of a physician, just liked it was my grandma's entire life when the called it dilaudid.


Heroin is diacetylmorphine. Dilaudid is hydromorphone. (sp?)

2 different things.

I think its unconstitutional for the feds to ban any drug. Now I don't mind what the state does on this issue, as long as marijuana stays freely available to all adults. I don't approve of non-medicinal use, but the state does a VERY poor job of determining what is medicinal use and what isn't.
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malcolmxy
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2/8/2013 12:47:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 5:42:21 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/7/2013 4:51:26 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/7/2013 4:09:19 PM, ZakYoungTheLibertarian wrote:
Absolutely. I also think convenience stores should be allowed to sell heroin.

Heroin should be legal under the care of a physician, just liked it was my grandma's entire life when the called it dilaudid.


Heroin is diacetylmorphine. Dilaudid is hydromorphone. (sp?)

2 different things.

I think its unconstitutional for the feds to ban any drug. Now I don't mind what the state does on this issue, as long as marijuana stays freely available to all adults. I don't approve of non-medicinal use, but the state does a VERY poor job of determining what is medicinal use and what isn't.

Not once they enter your body they're not. ALL opiates metabolize into morphine. The speed at which they do so is the only thing in question (and yet, this includes codeine and thebaine derivatives as well. They just take an extra step in the process to get there).

Some drugs, like cocaine, are dangerous. They can kill you on the spot. Others can cause permanent paralysis and other side effects that they state will have to deal with for the rest of your life.

All drugs should be decriminalized. Not all should be legal.
War is over, if you want it.

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malcolmxy
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2/8/2013 12:48:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 5:42:57 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/7/2013 4:51:26 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/7/2013 4:09:19 PM, ZakYoungTheLibertarian wrote:
Absolutely. I also think convenience stores should be allowed to sell heroin.

Heroin should be legal under the care of a physician, just liked it was my grandma's entire life when the called it dilaudid.

I'm not sure Habib at the 7-11 down the street is ready for that kind of responsibility.

Better not let Habib sell alcohol if he can't responsibly sell intoxicants.

A liquor license and a pharmacist's license are separate and distinct certifications for a reason.

Not all drugs were created equal.
War is over, if you want it.

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GarretKadeDupre
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2/8/2013 9:22:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 12:47:15 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/8/2013 5:42:21 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/7/2013 4:51:26 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/7/2013 4:09:19 PM, ZakYoungTheLibertarian wrote:
Absolutely. I also think convenience stores should be allowed to sell heroin.

Heroin should be legal under the care of a physician, just liked it was my grandma's entire life when the called it dilaudid.


Heroin is diacetylmorphine. Dilaudid is hydromorphone. (sp?)

2 different things.

I think its unconstitutional for the feds to ban any drug. Now I don't mind what the state does on this issue, as long as marijuana stays freely available to all adults. I don't approve of non-medicinal use, but the state does a VERY poor job of determining what is medicinal use and what isn't.

Not once they enter your body they're not. ALL opiates metabolize into morphine. The speed at which they do so is the only thing in question (and yet, this includes codeine and thebaine derivatives as well. They just take an extra step in the process to get there).

Some drugs, like cocaine, are dangerous. They can kill you on the spot. Others can cause permanent paralysis and other side effects that they state will have to deal with for the rest of your life.

All drugs should be decriminalized. Not all should be legal.

malcomxy, I'm a bit of a drug geek, and I like to think I know a lot about drugs.

Your statement that all opiates metabolize into morphine is blatantly false. Only certain opiates metabolize into morphine. Its true that heroin (diacetylmorphine) does turn into morphine once its inside your brain (or right inside the Blood-Brain-Barrier) but heroin is a very special opiate. Sort of an anomaly.

Some drugs like cocaine, are dangerous. They can kill you on the spot.

Yea, but why single out cocaine? Any drug can kill you on the spot if taken in a large enough dosage.

Others can cause permanent paralysis and other side effects that they state will have to deal with for the rest of your life.

What? Sure, some drugs can cause permanent paralysis... but they aren't popular, for obvious reasons. Unless you are talking about an overdose of stimulants which can cause cerebral hemorrhage and stroke and paralysis, among other things, but that is a result of overdosing, and not a typical response.

I say that all drugs should be legal.
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ZakYoungTheLibertarian
Posts: 253
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2/9/2013 12:28:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's my body, not the governments, I'll put in it what I damn well please. All drugs should be legal. The state has no business regulating moral behaviour that does not involve harm to other people. The war on drugs has been a war on civil liberties. The burden of proof in drug cases has shifted from the presumption of innocence to the presumption of guilt. Drugs can lead to profound experiences and unique understandings of the inner workings of your own psyche. If someone wants to use drugs, that's their own business. It is incredibly evil to think that you can kidnap someone and lock them in a cage for experimentation with substances, for doing something to their own body. Ultimately the theory behind prohibition is that the government owns our bodies, that we are all slaves to the state.
malcolmxy
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2/9/2013 12:56:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/8/2013 9:22:52 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/8/2013 12:47:15 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/8/2013 5:42:21 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/7/2013 4:51:26 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/7/2013 4:09:19 PM, ZakYoungTheLibertarian wrote:
Absolutely. I also think convenience stores should be allowed to sell heroin.

Heroin should be legal under the care of a physician, just liked it was my grandma's entire life when the called it dilaudid.


Heroin is diacetylmorphine. Dilaudid is hydromorphone. (sp?)

2 different things.

I think its unconstitutional for the feds to ban any drug. Now I don't mind what the state does on this issue, as long as marijuana stays freely available to all adults. I don't approve of non-medicinal use, but the state does a VERY poor job of determining what is medicinal use and what isn't.

Not once they enter your body they're not. ALL opiates metabolize into morphine. The speed at which they do so is the only thing in question (and yet, this includes codeine and thebaine derivatives as well. They just take an extra step in the process to get there).

Some drugs, like cocaine, are dangerous. They can kill you on the spot. Others can cause permanent paralysis and other side effects that they state will have to deal with for the rest of your life.

All drugs should be decriminalized. Not all should be legal.

malcomxy, I'm a bit of a drug geek, and I like to think I know a lot about drugs.

Your statement that all opiates metabolize into morphine is blatantly false. Only certain opiates metabolize into morphine. Its true that heroin (diacetylmorphine) does turn into morphine once its inside your brain (or right inside the Blood-Brain-Barrier) but heroin is a very special opiate. Sort of an anomaly.

Some drugs like cocaine, are dangerous. They can kill you on the spot.

Yea, but why single out cocaine? Any drug can kill you on the spot if taken in a large enough dosage.

Others can cause permanent paralysis and other side effects that they state will have to deal with for the rest of your life.

What? Sure, some drugs can cause permanent paralysis... but they aren't popular, for obvious reasons. Unless you are talking about an overdose of stimulants which can cause cerebral hemorrhage and stroke and paralysis, among other things, but that is a result of overdosing, and not a typical response.

I say that all drugs should be legal.

Look at the total process that all opiates go through in the body. I've already been through this argument with a "drug geek". Trust me - it's compicated, but eventually, they all turn to morphine (all agonists...I didn't look into partial agonists, and obviously opiate antagonists don't turn to morphine...that would defeat the purpose of them being antagonists).

All drugs (well most...not pot or anabolic steroids) CAN kill you, but cocaine DOES kill you. It's the only illicit drug which kills more people each year than aspirin.

Heroin only kills you if you do WAY too much of it, which can only happen if you inject (which isn't even close to the only way you can take it...perhaps you could OD other ways, but it would be difficult).

We give methamphetamine to our Air Force Fighter Pilots (d-amphetamine...same thing, just cleaner) and from what I can tell of the side effects, the new "swing shift pill" is essentially d-amphetamine.

Acid has some long term bad effects, but you gotta do a metric f*ck-ton of acid for that to happen, and who can do that much acid...it's annoying after a while.

I don't know about the synthetics as much, thouh I know you can get too "g'd out" and stop breathing.

Benzos are the only thing except alcohol that'll kill ya when you detox, potentially, but coke, even in tiny amounts, can drop you dead the first time you do it. That's no joke. Ask Len Bias. Oh wait...you can't. He's dead.
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whale23
Posts: 3
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2/9/2013 12:38:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I"ll go ahead and try to present a different point of view here.
Ronald Dworkin, (philosophy professor at NYU) stated that "since we are all aware of our irrational propensities, deficiencies in cognitive and emotional capacities and avoidable and unavoidable ignorance it is rational and prudent for us to in effect take out "social insurance policies." The issue that I see many here bring up is that restricting drug use inherently reduces freedom (I"m more referring to heroin, cocaine etc. here). Dworkin argued that since we"re all aware of our irrational tendencies, we should take out "social insurance policies" with the government to prevent us from acting irrationally. His theory arguably increases freedom. For example, legally requiring that all Americans attend school until a certain age gives citizens more options later in life, and as a result more freedom to do what they please. Generally, an addict is tied down to their respective substance with severe ramifications. Their freedom is restricted, their options limited. Now I understand that the term "rational" is very subjective, but it"s fair to assume that there is a noticeable difference between rational and irrational.
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/9/2013 3:16:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 4:08:37 PM, bobdylan345 wrote:
Do you think we should legalize marijuana throughout the world ?

My rule: As long as the drug doesn't make someone act out violently, and our universal healthcare system coming up doesn't pay to take care of people who OD or need ailments for drug related symptoms. It also shouldn't pay for rehab, considering a lot of people on drugs come out and get right back on. The rehab is jail, lol

Also, driving high on any substance should result in twice the fines and imprisonment of a DUI.
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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2/9/2013 5:25:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 12:56:05 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/8/2013 9:22:52 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/8/2013 12:47:15 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/8/2013 5:42:21 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/7/2013 4:51:26 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/7/2013 4:09:19 PM, ZakYoungTheLibertarian wrote:
Absolutely. I also think convenience stores should be allowed to sell heroin.

Heroin should be legal under the care of a physician, just liked it was my grandma's entire life when the called it dilaudid.


Heroin is diacetylmorphine. Dilaudid is hydromorphone. (sp?)

2 different things.

I think its unconstitutional for the feds to ban any drug. Now I don't mind what the state does on this issue, as long as marijuana stays freely available to all adults. I don't approve of non-medicinal use, but the state does a VERY poor job of determining what is medicinal use and what isn't.

Not once they enter your body they're not. ALL opiates metabolize into morphine. The speed at which they do so is the only thing in question (and yet, this includes codeine and thebaine derivatives as well. They just take an extra step in the process to get there).

Some drugs, like cocaine, are dangerous. They can kill you on the spot. Others can cause permanent paralysis and other side effects that they state will have to deal with for the rest of your life.

All drugs should be decriminalized. Not all should be legal.

malcomxy, I'm a bit of a drug geek, and I like to think I know a lot about drugs.

Your statement that all opiates metabolize into morphine is blatantly false. Only certain opiates metabolize into morphine. Its true that heroin (diacetylmorphine) does turn into morphine once its inside your brain (or right inside the Blood-Brain-Barrier) but heroin is a very special opiate. Sort of an anomaly.

Some drugs like cocaine, are dangerous. They can kill you on the spot.

Yea, but why single out cocaine? Any drug can kill you on the spot if taken in a large enough dosage.

Others can cause permanent paralysis and other side effects that they state will have to deal with for the rest of your life.

What? Sure, some drugs can cause permanent paralysis... but they aren't popular, for obvious reasons. Unless you are talking about an overdose of stimulants which can cause cerebral hemorrhage and stroke and paralysis, among other things, but that is a result of overdosing, and not a typical response.

I say that all drugs should be legal.

Look at the total process that all opiates go through in the body. I've already been through this argument with a "drug geek". Trust me - it's compicated, but eventually, they all turn to morphine

No they don't.

(all agonists...I didn't look into partial agonists

Oh, so when you say ALL opiates turn into morphine, you don't actually mean ALL opiates... LOL.

, and obviously opiate antagonists don't turn to morphine...that would defeat the purpose of them being antagonists).

All drugs (well most...not pot or anabolic steroids) CAN kill you,

Pot isn't a drug. Pot is a plant which contains drugs, and these drugs CAN kill you. Anabolic steroids can kill you, too.

but cocaine DOES kill you.

You really wanna stand by this statement? How do you explain the survival of people I know that have used cocaine in the past?

It's the only illicit drug which kills more people each year than aspirin.

Heroin only kills you if you do WAY too much of it, which can only happen if you inject

Now I can tell you ARE grossly misinformed. You can overdose on oral heroin; you don't have to inject it to die.

(which isn't even close to the only way you can take it...perhaps you could OD other ways, but it would be difficult).

Oh, it would be 'difficult' to overdose in other ways? Dude, get yours facts straight.


We give methamphetamine to our Air Force Fighter Pilots (d-amphetamine...same thing, just cleaner)

NO. Methamphetamine is NOT the same as dextroamphetamine. Clean methamphetamine is not the same as clean dextroamphetamine. Methamphetamine has more carbon and hydrogen atoms than dextroamphetamine.

and from what I can tell of the side effects, the new "swing shift pill" is essentially d-amphetamine.

Acid has some long term bad effects, but you gotta do a metric f*ck-ton of acid for that to happen, and who can do that much acid...it's annoying after a while.

Who can do that much acid? Lots of people. Alexander Shulgin and his wife, for example. And no, you don't have to do a metric f*ck-ton of acid to get long term bad effects. I did a weaker form of acid, only a few times, and had closed-eye visuals for months. I wouldn't necessarily call it 'bad' effects, but for someone who didn't want them, it could be considered bad.


I don't know about the synthetics as much, thouh I know you can get too "g'd out" and stop breathing.

You don't know much about synthetics? Dude, most of the drugs you mentioned are synthetic: Heroin, Acid, and Methamphetamine.


Benzos are the only thing except alcohol that'll kill ya when you detox,

False. Barbituates can also kill you upon detox.

potentially, but coke, even in tiny amounts, can drop you dead the first time you do it. That's no joke. Ask Len Bias. Oh wait...you can't. He's :dead.

You know nothing about drugs. Lol.
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malcolmxy
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2/9/2013 5:38:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 5:25:41 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:

You know nothing about drugs. Lol.

I properly qualified my statements since there are no absolutes, but here goes once again:

1. ALL Opiate Agonists metabolize to morphine.

2. Cocaine is the only drug that kills at a rate higher than aspirin each year, and the only common illicit drug that will kill you in an instance that isn't an "overdose"

3. "pot" is a slang term for Cannabis and refers to many things, not only the plant itself, but also the THC and cannibasoids contained within said plant.

4. Meth-amphetamine and D-amphetamine are ESSENTIALLY the same drug.

5. "Synthetics" refers to the new class of drugs like MDMA, Ketamine, etc. Obviously, when not extracted or part of the natural plant from which they come, all drugs are synthetic.

6. There is no evidence of any death from anabolic steroids in recorded medicine.

7. Orally overdosing on ANY drug is difficult. Typically, you throw up before the drugs kill you. This is why so few people successfully kill themselves by swallowing a bottle of pills.

Try doing something beside being a d!ck here. Nothing I said was false, so if you can't actually refute any of it, accept it.
War is over, if you want it.

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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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2/9/2013 6:35:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think that the toxicologist's principle maxim can be applied: sola dosis facit venenum. In English, 'the dose makes the poison'. Everything can kill, even water, if you consume enough of it. My expertise is more related to certain botanical toxins like atropine and strychnine, but most often these things belong to families which do similar things by binding to similar receptors. Opiates do have a lot in common with another; they largely target the same receptors.

That said, I doubt that any of us are on an adequate level to discuss this with any definite degree of authority. Such a discussion would require am incredibly comprehensive familiarity with human neurology, metabolic processes, and organic chemistry. Without that background you usually end up with gross oversimplification of incredibly intricate processes.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
GarretKadeDupre
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2/9/2013 6:42:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 5:38:34 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 5:25:41 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:

You know nothing about drugs. Lol.

I properly qualified my statements since there are no absolutes, but here goes once again:

1. ALL Opiate Agonists metabolize to morphine.

False. Oxycodone, an opiate agonist, does NOT metabolize into morphine in humans. See http://en.wikipedia.org...


2. Cocaine is the only drug that kills at a rate higher than aspirin each year, and the only common illicit drug that will kill you in an instance that isn't an "overdose"

3. "pot" is a slang term for Cannabis and refers to many things, not only the plant itself, but also the THC and cannibasoids contained within said plant.

No. Nobody calls THC or similar chemicals 'pot.' 'Pot' refers to Cannabis.


4. Meth-amphetamine and D-amphetamine are ESSENTIALLY the same drug.

Define 'essentially.'


5. "Synthetics" refers to the new class of drugs like MDMA, Ketamine, etc. Obviously, when not extracted or part of the natural plant from which they come, all drugs are synthetic.

Heroin and Acid (LSD-25) do not exist in nature; therefore, they are always synthetic. Methamphetamine is so rarely extracted in nature that it can be referred to as synthetic.


6. There is no evidence of any death from anabolic steroids in recorded medicine.

Alright, technically true.

7. Orally overdosing on ANY drug is difficult. Typically, you throw up before the drugs kill you. This is why so few people successfully kill themselves by swallowing a bottle of pills.

Try doing something beside being a d!ck here. Nothing I said was false, so if you can't actually refute any of it, accept it.
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Skepsikyma
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2/9/2013 6:55:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 6:42:21 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/9/2013 5:38:34 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
1. ALL Opiate Agonists metabolize to morphine.

False. Oxycodone, an opiate agonist, does NOT metabolize into morphine in humans. See http://en.wikipedia.org...

See, this is what I was talking about. Oxycodone is an opioid, meaning that it targets the same receptors as opiates. Opiates are, by definition, derived from Papaver somniferum. Oxycodone is synthetic, so it is not an opiate.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
GarretKadeDupre
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2/9/2013 7:27:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 6:55:49 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/9/2013 6:42:21 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/9/2013 5:38:34 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
1. ALL Opiate Agonists metabolize to morphine.

False. Oxycodone, an opiate agonist, does NOT metabolize into morphine in humans. See http://en.wikipedia.org...

See, this is what I was talking about. Oxycodone is an opioid, meaning that it targets the same receptors as opiates. Opiates are, by definition, derived from Papaver somniferum. Oxycodone is synthetic, so it is not an opiate.

I didn't call Oxycodone an opiate. I was referring to it as an opiate agonist like malcomxy was.
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Skepsikyma
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2/9/2013 7:36:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 7:27:02 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/9/2013 6:55:49 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/9/2013 6:42:21 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/9/2013 5:38:34 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
1. ALL Opiate Agonists metabolize to morphine.

False. Oxycodone, an opiate agonist, does NOT metabolize into morphine in humans. See http://en.wikipedia.org...

See, this is what I was talking about. Oxycodone is an opioid, meaning that it targets the same receptors as opiates. Opiates are, by definition, derived from Papaver somniferum. Oxycodone is synthetic, so it is not an opiate.

I didn't call Oxycodone an opiate. I was referring to it as an opiate agonist like malcomxy was.

An agonist is a compound which affects a cell by bonding to a receptor, triggering some sort of response. An opiate is a class of drug which naturally occurs in the poppy Papaver somniferum. In order to be an opiate agonist, a compound must be both an opiate and an agonist. Oxycodone fulfills only one of these requirements. To call it an opioid agonist would be accurate. As far as I can see, Malcolmxy never referred to Oxycodone as an opiate agonist. He merely asserted that all opiate agonists metabolize to morphine.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/9/2013 11:09:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 6:42:21 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/9/2013 5:38:34 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 5:25:41 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:

You know nothing about drugs. Lol.

I properly qualified my statements since there are no absolutes, but here goes once again:

1. ALL Opiate Agonists metabolize to morphine.

False. Oxycodone, an opiate agonist, does NOT metabolize into morphine in humans. See http://en.wikipedia.org...

The final product is noroxymorphone

http://www.chemicalbook.com...

http://www.chemicalbook.com...

which is basically MORPHINE


2. Cocaine is the only drug that kills at a rate higher than aspirin each year, and the only common illicit drug that will kill you in an instance that isn't an "overdose"

3. "pot" is a slang term for Cannabis and refers to many things, not only the plant itself, but also the THC and cannibasoids contained within said plant.

No. Nobody calls THC or similar chemicals 'pot.' 'Pot' refers to Cannabis.

It refers to reefer which is the whole shabang. Pot is a drug. Cannabis is a plant.


4. Meth-amphetamine and D-amphetamine are ESSENTIALLY the same drug.

Define 'essentially.'

buy a dictionary


5. "Synthetics" refers to the new class of drugs like MDMA, Ketamine, etc. Obviously, when not extracted or part of the natural plant from which they come, all drugs are synthetic.

Heroin and Acid (LSD-25) do not exist in nature; therefore, they are always synthetic. Methamphetamine is so rarely extracted in nature that it can be referred to as synthetic.

Yes, BUT IN THE DRUG WORLD,synthetics refer to ecstasy, Ketamine, etc.


6. There is no evidence of any death from anabolic steroids in recorded medicine.

Alright, technically true.

Oh, so because you were wrong about this, can we say you don't know d!ck about drugs?

7. Orally overdosing on ANY drug is difficult. Typically, you throw up before the drugs kill you. This is why so few people successfully kill themselves by swallowing a bottle of pills.

Try doing something beside being a d!ck here. Nothing I said was false, so if you can't actually refute any of it, accept it.
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malcolmxy
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2/9/2013 11:12:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 7:36:27 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/9/2013 7:27:02 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/9/2013 6:55:49 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/9/2013 6:42:21 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/9/2013 5:38:34 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
1. ALL Opiate Agonists metabolize to morphine.

False. Oxycodone, an opiate agonist, does NOT metabolize into morphine in humans. See http://en.wikipedia.org...

See, this is what I was talking about. Oxycodone is an opioid, meaning that it targets the same receptors as opiates. Opiates are, by definition, derived from Papaver somniferum. Oxycodone is synthetic, so it is not an opiate.

I didn't call Oxycodone an opiate. I was referring to it as an opiate agonist like malcomxy was.

An agonist is a compound which affects a cell by bonding to a receptor, triggering some sort of response. An opiate is a class of drug which naturally occurs in the poppy Papaver somniferum. In order to be an opiate agonist, a compound must be both an opiate and an agonist. Oxycodone fulfills only one of these requirements. To call it an opioid agonist would be accurate. As far as I can see, Malcolmxy never referred to Oxycodone as an opiate agonist. He merely asserted that all opiate agonists metabolize to morphine.

I actually meant opiods as well and didn't know there was a distinction. Thanks for the info.
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GarretKadeDupre
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2/9/2013 11:39:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Ok, sorry for being a dick, but you are still wrong.

At 2/9/2013 11:09:40 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 6:42:21 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/9/2013 5:38:34 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 5:25:41 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:

You know nothing about drugs. Lol.

I properly qualified my statements since there are no absolutes, but here goes once again:

1. ALL Opiate Agonists metabolize to morphine.

False. Oxycodone, an opiate agonist, does NOT metabolize into morphine in humans. See http://en.wikipedia.org...

The final product is noroxymorphone

http://www.chemicalbook.com...

http://www.chemicalbook.com...

which is basically MORPHINE

False. Noroxymorphone is NOT morphine.



2. Cocaine is the only drug that kills at a rate higher than aspirin each year, and the only common illicit drug that will kill you in an instance that isn't an "overdose"

3. "pot" is a slang term for Cannabis and refers to many things, not only the plant itself, but also the THC and cannibasoids contained within said plant.

No. Nobody calls THC or similar chemicals 'pot.' 'Pot' refers to Cannabis.

It refers to reefer which is the whole shabang. Pot is a drug. Cannabis is a plant.

False. The definition of pot is Cannabis, according to Google Dictionary.



4. Meth-amphetamine and D-amphetamine are ESSENTIALLY the same drug.

Define 'essentially.'

buy a dictionary

I looked at several definitions of 'essentially', and NONE of them make your statement true. Methamphetamine is NOT essentially dextroamphetamine. They are different chemicals with different effects. So you're statement is false.



5. "Synthetics" refers to the new class of drugs like MDMA, Ketamine, etc. Obviously, when not extracted or part of the natural plant from which they come, all drugs are synthetic.

Heroin and Acid (LSD-25) do not exist in nature; therefore, they are always synthetic. Methamphetamine is so rarely extracted in nature that it can be referred to as synthetic.

Yes, BUT IN THE DRUG WORLD,synthetics refer to ecstasy, Ketamine, etc.

Ok I'm going to drop this point because this is an argument about slang. Slang isn't really debatable.
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malcolmxy
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2/9/2013 11:54:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 11:39:24 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Ok, sorry for being a dick, but you are still wrong.

At 2/9/2013 11:09:40 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 6:42:21 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/9/2013 5:38:34 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 5:25:41 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:

You know nothing about drugs. Lol.

I properly qualified my statements since there are no absolutes, but here goes once again:

1. ALL Opiate Agonists metabolize to morphine.

False. Oxycodone, an opiate agonist, does NOT metabolize into morphine in humans. See http://en.wikipedia.org...

The final product is noroxymorphone

http://www.chemicalbook.com...

http://www.chemicalbook.com...

which is basically MORPHINE

False. Noroxymorphone is NOT morphine.

Look at their chemical structure and make-up...They are nearly identical. That's why I provided the links I did. The only difference is that Noroxymorphone lasts longer. It's super-morphine.



2. Cocaine is the only drug that kills at a rate higher than aspirin each year, and the only common illicit drug that will kill you in an instance that isn't an "overdose"

3. "pot" is a slang term for Cannabis and refers to many things, not only the plant itself, but also the THC and cannibasoids contained within said plant.

No. Nobody calls THC or similar chemicals 'pot.' 'Pot' refers to Cannabis.

It refers to reefer which is the whole shabang. Pot is a drug. Cannabis is a plant.

False. The definition of pot is Cannabis, according to Google Dictionary.

"Slang isn't really debatable."



4. Meth-amphetamine and D-amphetamine are ESSENTIALLY the same drug.

Define 'essentially.'

buy a dictionary

I looked at several definitions of 'essentially', and NONE of them make your statement true. Methamphetamine is NOT essentially dextroamphetamine. They are different chemicals with different effects. So you're statement is false.

Really, because in the only double-blind study which compared the two, they say exactly what I did.

AIMS:

There are no studies directly comparing self-administration of methamphetamine and d-amphetamine by humans. This study compared intranasal methamphetamine- and d-amphetamine self-administration and characterized the mood, performance and physiological effects produced by the drugs.

CONCLUSIONS:

Methamphetamine and d-amphetamines appear to produce a similar dose-related profile of effects in humans, which supports their equivalence for abuse potential.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...



5. "Synthetics" refers to the new class of drugs like MDMA, Ketamine, etc. Obviously, when not extracted or part of the natural plant from which they come, all drugs are synthetic.

Heroin and Acid (LSD-25) do not exist in nature; therefore, they are always synthetic. Methamphetamine is so rarely extracted in nature that it can be referred to as synthetic.

Yes, BUT IN THE DRUG WORLD,synthetics refer to ecstasy, Ketamine, etc.

Ok I'm going to drop this point because this is an argument about slang. Slang isn't really debatable.

Are you sure I'm wrong?
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whale23
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2/10/2013 11:52:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 6:35:36 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I think that the toxicologist's principle maxim can be applied: sola dosis facit venenum. In English, 'the dose makes the poison'. Everything can kill, even water, if you consume enough of it. My expertise is more related to certain botanical toxins like atropine and strychnine, but most often these things belong to families which do similar things by binding to similar receptors. Opiates do have a lot in common with another; they largely target the same receptors.

That said, I doubt that any of us are on an adequate level to discuss this with any definite degree of authority. Such a discussion would require am incredibly comprehensive familiarity with human neurology, metabolic processes, and organic chemistry. Without that background you usually end up with gross oversimplification of incredibly intricate processes.

Interesting response. While I understand your point that anything (i.e. water) can be deadly in high doses, substances such as water are also necessary for survival, or can greatly enhance survival. What I think that we all have to keep in mind is that USUALLY drugs don't contribute to any form of survival, or necessarily better our overall existence. When drugs such as Oxycodone are prescribed, there is a great benefit for the user. If they're not used for a medical purpose, however, the consequences can be disastrous.
The argument that I believe is this- How does using drugs with extremely detrimental health consequences increase freedom. There needs to be an explanation for how snorting coke, injecting heroin or popping pills helps someone live better and contribute more to their life than not using. Again, this is subjective, but I think we can come to a general consensus.
malcolmxy
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2/10/2013 12:28:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 11:52:08 AM, whale23 wrote:
At 2/9/2013 6:35:36 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I think that the toxicologist's principle maxim can be applied: sola dosis facit venenum. In English, 'the dose makes the poison'. Everything can kill, even water, if you consume enough of it. My expertise is more related to certain botanical toxins like atropine and strychnine, but most often these things belong to families which do similar things by binding to similar receptors. Opiates do have a lot in common with another; they largely target the same receptors.

That said, I doubt that any of us are on an adequate level to discuss this with any definite degree of authority. Such a discussion would require am incredibly comprehensive familiarity with human neurology, metabolic processes, and organic chemistry. Without that background you usually end up with gross oversimplification of incredibly intricate processes.

Interesting response. While I understand your point that anything (i.e. water) can be deadly in high doses, substances such as water are also necessary for survival, or can greatly enhance survival. What I think that we all have to keep in mind is that USUALLY drugs don't contribute to any form of survival, or necessarily better our overall existence. When drugs such as Oxycodone are prescribed, there is a great benefit for the user. If they're not used for a medical purpose, however, the consequences can be disastrous.
The argument that I believe is this- How does using drugs with extremely detrimental health consequences increase freedom. There needs to be an explanation for how snorting coke, injecting heroin or popping pills helps someone live better and contribute more to their life than not using. Again, this is subjective, but I think we can come to a general consensus.

If abused, Oxycodone only becomes truly detrimental if it is no longer available to the addict.

Opiates/opioids have very few negative health effects. They can cause insomnia, constipation and, in some cases, liver enzyme issues, but it's the cut in street opiates, the sharing of needles, "works" (spoon, or similar, specifically...thus spreading Hep C) and other things which cause the negative health effects.

If supplied with clean, affordable opiates/opiods, the addicts will see no more ill health effects than the average moderate drinker would.

My grandmother lived to be 83 years old with what we estimate to be a 50 year addiction to various opiates and opiate derivatives (all prescribed by a doctor, and they couldn't have been for pain, because at 75 years old, the woman could dust me on a morning speed walk, both in pace and endurance).

She was literally healthy as a horse (thoroughbred) until the day they finally put her down for her dirt nap.
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GarretKadeDupre
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2/10/2013 2:29:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/9/2013 11:54:09 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 11:39:24 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Ok, sorry for being a dick, but you are still wrong.

At 2/9/2013 11:09:40 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 6:42:21 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/9/2013 5:38:34 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/9/2013 5:25:41 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:

You know nothing about drugs. Lol.

I properly qualified my statements since there are no absolutes, but here goes once again:

1. ALL Opiate Agonists metabolize to morphine.

False. Oxycodone, an opiate agonist, does NOT metabolize into morphine in humans. See http://en.wikipedia.org...

The final product is noroxymorphone

http://www.chemicalbook.com...

http://www.chemicalbook.com...

which is basically MORPHINE

False. Noroxymorphone is NOT morphine.

Look at their chemical structure and make-up...They are nearly identical.

Similarities in visual appearance mean little in the chemical world. Morphine and Naloxone look 'nearly identical' but they have opposite effects.

Naloxone: http://upload.wikimedia.org...
Morphine: http://upload.wikimedia.org...

That's why I provided the links I did. The only difference is that Noroxymorphone lasts longer.

No. Length of effect is not the only difference. Its affinity for the mu-opioid receptor is 1.8x lower than morphine, and its analgesic properties are weaker than morphine for every route of administration except when injected into the spine.

(1)

It's super-morphine.

Just no.




2. Cocaine is the only drug that kills at a rate higher than aspirin each year, and the only common illicit drug that will kill you in an instance that isn't an "overdose"

3. "pot" is a slang term for Cannabis and refers to many things, not only the plant itself, but also the THC and cannibasoids contained within said plant.

No. Nobody calls THC or similar chemicals 'pot.' 'Pot' refers to Cannabis.

It refers to reefer which is the whole shabang. Pot is a drug. Cannabis is a plant.

False. The definition of pot is Cannabis, according to Google Dictionary.

"Slang isn't really debatable."

This word is in the dictionary. "Synthetic" is also in the dictionary, but it doesn't have a footnote saying that "in the 'drug world' it has a different meaning."




4. Meth-amphetamine and D-amphetamine are ESSENTIALLY the same drug.

Define 'essentially.'

buy a dictionary

I looked at several definitions of 'essentially', and NONE of them make your statement true. Methamphetamine is NOT essentially dextroamphetamine. They are different chemicals with different effects. So you're statement is false.

Really, because in the only double-blind study which compared the two, they say exactly what I did.

AIMS:

There are no studies directly comparing self-administration of methamphetamine and d-amphetamine by humans. This study compared intranasal methamphetamine- and d-amphetamine self-administration and characterized the mood, performance and physiological effects produced by the drugs.

CONCLUSIONS:

Methamphetamine and d-amphetamines appear to produce a similar dose-related profile of effects in humans, which supports their equivalence for abuse potential.


No, they do not say exactly what you said. You said they are essentially the same. Your study said they are similar with equivalence for abuse potential.

SIMILAR not ESSENTIALLY THE SAME

Methamphetamine is more neurotoxic than dextroamphetamine. Methamphetamine is more potent than dextroamphetamine. Methamphetamine has a longer duration of effect than dextroamphetamine. Also, technically, methamphetamine is a racemic mixture while dextroamphetamine is the right-handed isomer of amphetamine.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...



5. "Synthetics" refers to the new class of drugs like MDMA, Ketamine, etc. Obviously, when not extracted or part of the natural plant from which they come, all drugs are synthetic.

Heroin and Acid (LSD-25) do not exist in nature; therefore, they are always synthetic. Methamphetamine is so rarely extracted in nature that it can be referred to as synthetic.

Yes, BUT IN THE DRUG WORLD,synthetics refer to ecstasy, Ketamine, etc.

Ok I'm going to drop this point because this is an argument about slang. Slang isn't really debatable.

Are you sure I'm wrong?

This is an unfalsifiable claim you've made. It's pointless to argue it. I could say I'm druggie in the 'drug world' and call weed synthetic but it doesn't make it synthetic.

You're still wrong.
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malcolmxy
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2/10/2013 5:59:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 2:36:26 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
http://debate.org...

Yes, I agree with my quickly disposed of debate opponent here. PLEASE see the expedient drubbing I gave the boy and vote accordingly.
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malcolmxy
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2/10/2013 9:14:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 8:41:00 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Sorry for being such an as.s.

quit being such a p*ssy...have some dignity, man.

Brush yourself off and get back into the game.

If I had a nickle for every time a person here was a d!ck to me and gave back a dollar every time those same people weren't, I'd have a lot of nickles minus the lone dollar to account for you.

Don't worry about it and don't belabor it. It's cool. I already wrote you privately about this. enough already.
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