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Communism is inevitable?

1-2-3
Posts: 42
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11/1/2009 12:39:12 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Karl Marx identified four stages of history. Each was characterized by a different relationship between society's members and the means of production. The economy was the central element. His historical stages in sequence are:

Primitive Communism
Slavery
Fuedalism
Capitalism
Socialism
Utopian State of Communism

Marx's theory is grounded on the concepts of the means of production and alienation. Human beings, individually and collectively, want to be positvely related to the means of production. They want to control their own lives, determine what work they will do, and enjoy the fruits of their own labor. Whenever they are not in control of the means of production, alienation sets in; people are forced to work for someone else against their will , are uninterested in the work being done, or both. Alienation is intolerable. It is antithetical to what Marx called human "species being" or, in more conventional terms, to human nature. So, even though it may (and has) take centuries, people set about the long series of stages that will be necessary to go through before alienation is eliminated for everyone in a communist utopia. Thus, alienation is the driving wheel of history and social change.

Marx's theory is attractive. He clearly recognized the inequalities of society and saw them as woven into the very fabric of social life. He understood that in most societies the few control the many. He argued, quite convincingly, that people wont ever be happy until they are out from under the domination of others. I think most people would agree with these observations.

Is his theory of social change correct?
Is the United States in the beginning stages of the transition to socialism?
I-am-a-panda
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11/1/2009 7:40:08 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/1/2009 12:39:12 AM, 1-2-3 wrote:
Karl Marx identified four stages of history. Each was characterized by a different relationship between society's members and the means of production. The economy was the central element. His historical stages in sequence are:

Primitive Communism
Slavery
Fuedalism
Capitalism
Socialism
Utopian State of Communism

Russia failed at stage 4. China is going from Socialism to Capitalism :). So, um, fail.


Marx's theory is grounded on the concepts of the means of production and alienation. Human beings, individually and collectively, want to be positvely related to the means of production. They want to control their own lives, determine what work they will do, and enjoy the fruits of their own labor. Whenever they are not in control of the means of production, alienation sets in; people are forced to work for someone else against their will , are uninterested in the work being done, or both. Alienation is intolerable. It is antithetical to what Marx called human "species being" or, in more conventional terms, to human nature. So, even though it may (and has) take centuries, people set about the long series of stages that will be necessary to go through before alienation is eliminated for everyone in a communist utopia. Thus, alienation is the driving wheel of history and social change.

1) I choose to work for someone. It's not against my will. Unless I'm taken kicking and screaming into a job it's not against my will. This theory that capitalism is slavery is just idiotic. You can work or you can starve. But at least you have the choice. Or, there's an alternative which Communism doesn't offer, setting up your own business.

2) The attempt for workers to control the economy under communism has always failed and resulted in dictatorships. Besides, workers work, not decide what they will produce. And if the workers want something from farmers, and the farmers want to make something else, what then?

3) Collectivisation of farms is fail. No farmer is going to have their land taken away from them and still work it to produce food for others.


Marx's theory is attractive. He clearly recognized the inequalities of society and saw them as woven into the very fabric of social life. He understood that in most societies the few control the many. He argued, quite convincingly, that people wont ever be happy until they are out from under the domination of others. I think most people would agree with these observations.

Attractive, but impractical. Doctors are a higher skilled profession than a driver, yet you want to pay both the exact same. This never works out.


Is his theory of social change correct?

No.

Is the United States in the beginning stages of the transition to socialism?

No.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/1/2009 5:21:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
What I always find amusing is that people so vehemently attack and oppose communism for its flaws, but never hold capitalism responsible for its flaws (most deny that capitalism even has flaws). Personally I don't think that any system could ever really be "fair" in every regard, and as such, capitalism is by far the best choice because it promotes progression and values work, whereas communism inhibits society and provides no incentives for achievement and success. Plus, communism is definitely less fair. It's also stifling and never seems to be able to work for too long. Even though I think that Mar'x theories on dialecticsand especially historical materialism are interesting, his ideology is still inferior to pure capitalism.
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Harlan
Posts: 1,880
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11/1/2009 5:56:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/1/2009 5:32:29 PM, twsurber wrote:
Capitalism=greed. George Orwell would have had another classic making fun of our government.

I wouldn't call the subject of Orwell's works "making fun." That sounds like the wrong phrase.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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11/1/2009 6:19:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
And greed= the motive for producing much of the hardware and software responsible for you being able to have this discussion.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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11/1/2009 6:23:53 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/1/2009 6:19:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
And greed= the motive for producing much of the hardware and software responsible for you being able to have this discussion.

Sigged.
ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
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11/1/2009 6:42:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I think that because society inevitably becomes more liberal, a move towards socialism is inevitable. I don't know where or when we'll draw a line, but I doubt that hardcore communism will ever exist.
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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11/4/2009 6:27:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/1/2009 5:32:29 PM, twsurber wrote:
Capitalism=greed. George Orwell would have had another classic making fun of our government.

Greed is a great thing when there is no coercion behind it.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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11/4/2009 6:33:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/4/2009 6:27:28 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 11/1/2009 5:32:29 PM, twsurber wrote:
Capitalism=greed. George Orwell would have had another classic making fun of our government.

Greed is a great thing when there is no coercion behind it.

Greed is profitable. As for being great, that's up for debate, I suppose. It leads to some interesting things.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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11/4/2009 6:36:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/4/2009 6:33:02 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 11/4/2009 6:27:28 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 11/1/2009 5:32:29 PM, twsurber wrote:
Capitalism=greed. George Orwell would have had another classic making fun of our government.

Greed is a great thing when there is no coercion behind it.

Greed is profitable. As for being great, that's up for debate, I suppose. It leads to some interesting things.

The want fro one's desires to be satisfied and the liberty to pursue those desires means that the desires would be meet, causing satisfaction. A happier people. All necessary is to keep this greed from being coercive.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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11/5/2009 7:03:15 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/1/2009 12:39:12 AM, 1-2-3 wrote:
Primitive Communism
Anarcho-communism, no. Anarchoprimitivism, yes. http://en.wikipedia.org... I'm tired of commies asserting that hunter-gatherer society was AC. Not all primitive tribes were collective.
Slavery
Wat?? I'm pretty sure this is just referring to a stricter feudalism, because I can't imagine what you are referring to.
Fuedalism
Awful, yes, but not necessarily a required step before a free market.
Capitalism
Hasn't hapened yet.
Socialism
This goes before capitalism, then, I suppose.
Utopian State of Communism
And this won't happen. AC contradicts individualist human nature.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
kelly224
Posts: 952
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11/23/2009 9:59:35 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/1/2009 12:39:12 AM, 1-2-3 wrote:
Karl Marx identified four stages of history. Each was characterized by a different relationship between society's members and the means of production. The economy was the central element. His historical stages in sequence are:

Primitive Communism
Slavery
Fuedalism
Capitalism
Socialism
Utopian State of Communism

Marx's theory is grounded on the concepts of the means of production and alienation. Human beings, individually and collectively, want to be positvely related to the means of production. They want to control their own lives, determine what work they will do, and enjoy the fruits of their own labor. Whenever they are not in control of the means of production, alienation sets in; people are forced to work for someone else against their will , are uninterested in the work being done, or both. Alienation is intolerable. It is antithetical to what Marx called human "species being" or, in more conventional terms, to human nature. So, even though it may (and has) take centuries, people set about the long series of stages that will be necessary to go through before alienation is eliminated for everyone in a communist utopia. Thus, alienation is the driving wheel of history and social change.

Marx's theory is attractive. He clearly recognized the inequalities of society and saw them as woven into the very fabric of social life. He understood that in most societies the few control the many. He argued, quite convincingly, that people wont ever be happy until they are out from under the domination of others. I think most people would agree with these observations.

Is his theory of social change correct?
Is the United States in the beginning stages of the transition to socialisHasn't

Democracy failed enough in this country?....I'm not for whatever structure they have in place, because as teh theory stated the few control the many.

SOCIALISM....We complain about the country slipping into socialism, but most of us proudly enjoy the serivices provided by the government. It makes me sick to my stomach to hear egotistical jack asses complain about helping out their fellow man. People really need to get a grip, with all this war people neglect the fact that there are things at home that need addressing. We say we love each other, but hate each other with enormous vigor. I say take off the facades people.

What is so bad with socialism? I'm not defending it, but let me know what you would be deprived of, and whether you like it or not that is the way the country is going. Deal with it, or move on.
johngriswald
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11/23/2009 10:04:46 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
SOCIALISM....We complain about the country slipping into socialism, but most of us proudly enjoy the services provided by the people who work and start their own businesses.

Fixed that for you buddy.
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kelly224
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11/23/2009 10:14:28 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 10:04:46 AM, johngriswald wrote:
SOCIALISM....We complain about the country slipping into socialism, but most of us proudly enjoy the services provided by the people who work and start their own businesses.

Fixed that for you buddy.

Is that so?...Are there abundant opportunities for all to start there own buisness?...Can a black man/woman get a buisness faster than a White, Asian,and so on. It seems fair when you have all the advantages, and don't have to worry about anyone else. Communism, Socialism, Democracy, and whatever else form of government is nothing but a crock that powerful cowards hide behind.
johngriswald
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11/23/2009 10:28:20 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 10:14:28 AM, kelly224 wrote:
Whine whine whine, black people, moan moan moan, unfair, whimper whimper whimper conspiracy theory cry cry cry

Really?
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kelly224
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11/23/2009 10:33:18 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 10:28:20 AM, johngriswald wrote:
At 11/23/2009 10:14:28 AM, kelly224 wrote:
Whine whine whine, black people, moan moan moan, unfair, whimper whimper whimper conspiracy theory cry cry cry


Really?

Just as I thought, a person that gladly enjoys the fruits of free labor...I'm not a whiner, just stating facts. White folks are quick to turn the other cheek on atrocities just as long as it doesn't knock on their door step.....Unfathomable that we could be hated so much in the world. With leaders like we have we are bound to amass more positive alliances in the world. Thanks for being typical.
johngriswald
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11/23/2009 10:37:30 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 10:33:18 AM, kelly224 wrote:
Just as I thought, a person that gladly enjoys the fruits of free labor...I'm not a whiner, just stating facts. White folks are quick to turn the other cheek on atrocities just as long as it doesn't knock on their door step.....Unfathomable that we could be hated so much in the world. With leaders like we have we are bound to amass more positive alliances in the world. Thanks for being typical.

Free labor? Son, I'm the one who is working. None of my employees are free nor do I receive anything free, I'll tell you that much. It's easy I understand to blame "White folks" for the problem, as that seems to be ingrained into your present culture. However, I'll assure you, you have as much if not more opportunity as someone else of a different skin color does. You're attitude, like many your age, is what is holding you back from becoming a success. I'll take typical as a compliment if typical is someone who isn't going to listen to your sad and pathetic sob stories about how you are black.
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kelly224
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11/23/2009 10:43:15 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 10:37:30 AM, johngriswald wrote:
At 11/23/2009 10:33:18 AM, kelly224 wrote:
Just as I thought, a person that gladly enjoys the fruits of free labor...I'm not a whiner, just stating facts. White folks are quick to turn the other cheek on atrocities just as long as it doesn't knock on their door step.....Unfathomable that we could be hated so much in the world. With leaders like we have we are bound to amass more positive alliances in the world. Thanks for being typical.

Free labor? Son, I'm the one who is working. None of my employees are free nor do I receive anything free, I'll tell you that much. It's easy I understand to blame "White folks" for the problem, as that seems to be ingrained into your present culture. However, I'll assure you, you have as much if not more opportunity as someone else of a different skin color does. You're attitude, like many your age, is what is holding you back from becoming a success. I'll take typical as a compliment if typical is someone who isn't going to listen to your sad and pathetic sob stories about how you are black.

It's not a sob story, just seeing for my own two specs of how egotisical people can be. I appluad you for having a buisness. I'm not looking for sympathy or pity. You are not going to listen, but have sat here for twenty minutes trying to argue with me....sees a little backwards. If you have bigger fish to fry, than I suggest you go do that. If not, than go along your merry way.
johngriswald
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11/23/2009 10:54:06 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
It's not a sob story,
It is a sob story, you expect me to pity you for the color of your skin. You are being racist towards your own race, not me.

I'm not looking for sympathy or pity.
If you weren't then why mention your race as an impediment of your success?

You are not going to listen, but have sat here for twenty minutes trying to argue with me
Because I dislike poor excuses to substantiate an even poorer ideology (socialism)

If you have bigger fish to fry, than I suggest you go do that. If not, than go along your merry way.

I don't like fish
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kelly224
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11/23/2009 11:20:06 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 10:54:06 AM, johngriswald wrote:
It's not a sob story,
It is a sob story, you expect me to pity you for the color of your skin. You are being racist towards your own race, not me.

I'm not looking for sympathy or pity.
If you weren't then why mention your race as an impediment of your success?

You are not going to listen, but have sat here for twenty minutes trying to argue with me
Because I dislike poor excuses to substantiate an even poorer ideology (socialism)

If you have bigger fish to fry, than I suggest you go do that. If not, than go along your merry way.

I don't like fish

Well thats just your opinion. How hard was it for you growing up sir?....You see it as a sob story, and you are entitled to do so. It's always a pitiful excuse for the privilegded. I don't expect you to understand where I am coming from, not even step in my shoes as I am sure you would NEVER do. It is easy to pass judgement when you are apart of the society that decides what is morally correct. Wealth is great don't get me wrong, but entitlement is not.
johngriswald
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11/23/2009 11:45:27 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Well thats just your opinion. How hard was it for you growing up sir?

Now instead of using your race as an excuse, you're using your childhood?

....You see it as a sob story, and you are entitled to do so.
I am.

It's always a pitiful excuse for the privilegded. I don't expect you to understand where I am coming from, not even step in my shoes as I am sure you would NEVER do.

You're right, I'm sure you are discriminated all the time because of your color. Life is so hard for you. The oppressed and starving children of North Korea have nothing on the life of a black man.

It is easy to pass judgement when you are apart of the society that decides what is morally correct

Really? We determine morals?

Wealth is great don't get me wrong, but entitlement is not.
I completely agree, but don't understand why you don't as you were the one advocating socialism, and not I.
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kelly224
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11/23/2009 12:05:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 11:45:27 AM, johngriswald wrote:
Well thats just your opinion. How hard was it for you growing up sir?

Now instead of using your race as an excuse, you're using your childhood?

....You see it as a sob story, and you are entitled to do so.
I am.

It's always a pitiful excuse for the privilegded. I don't expect you to understand where I am coming from, not even step in my shoes as I am sure you would NEVER do.

You're right, I'm sure you are discriminated all the time because of your color. Life is so hard for you. The oppressed and starving children of North Korea have nothing on the life of a black man.

It is easy to pass judgement when you are apart of the society that decides what is morally correct

Really? We determine morals?

Wealth is great don't get me wrong, but entitlement is not.
I completely agree, but don't understand why you don't as you were the one advocating socialism, and not I.

I am not advocating Solcialism. I wanted to hear from others what they thought of it. I am not affiliated with any party, and see through all these smoke screens. I'm not North Korean, I was born here, I can't speak for them, although I empathize with them.

Life is not easy for ANYONE regardless of color. As I have stated before, I am not an angry black man (although some things I see do get me upset). As far as the moral topic, it seems as though America decides what's morally right for everyone else. Before deciding what others should be doing,first get you own house in order. I can only draw from my experiences, is that not right?...Can YOU draw from my experiences?...I think not.
johngriswald
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11/23/2009 12:47:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 12:05:33 PM, kelly224 wrote:

I am not advocating Solcialism. I wanted to hear from others what they thought of it.
I told you what I thought of and you proceeded to go on this rant about how unfair life is because you are Black.

Life is not easy for ANYONE regardless of color. As I have stated before, I am not an angry black man (although some things I see do get me upset). As far as the moral topic, it seems as though America decides what's morally right for everyone else. Before deciding what others should be doing,first get you own house in order. I can only draw from my experiences, is that not right?...Can YOU draw from my experiences?...I think not.

I don't understand what you mean by "draw from experiences"
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kelly224
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11/23/2009 1:06:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 12:47:57 PM, johngriswald wrote:
At 11/23/2009 12:05:33 PM, kelly224 wrote:

I am not advocating Solcialism. I wanted to hear from others what they thought of it.
I told you what I thought of and you proceeded to go on this rant about how unfair life is because you are Black.


Life is not easy for ANYONE regardless of color. As I have stated before, I am not an angry black man (although some things I see do get me upset). As far as the moral topic, it seems as though America decides what's morally right for everyone else. Before deciding what others should be doing,first get you own house in order. I can only draw from my experiences, is that not right?...Can YOU draw from my experiences?...I think not.

I don't understand what you mean by "draw from experiences"

Yes I'm black, but I don't consider it being a handicap. I stated that we have been handicapped, and are expected to compete with folks who had a better educational structure, among other things.

So it's an excuse to point out inherent truths?

I can only speak from my experiences. Hope that clarifies it.
johngriswald
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11/23/2009 1:09:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 1:06:19 PM, kelly224 wrote:

Yes I'm black, but I don't consider it being a handicap. I stated that we have been handicapped

Yes blacks in the past have absolutely been handicapped, currently you're not and have no excuse.

So it's an excuse to point out inherent truths?
If the inherent truths are long past their relevancy then yes.
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kelly224
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11/23/2009 1:14:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 1:09:04 PM, johngriswald wrote:
At 11/23/2009 1:06:19 PM, kelly224 wrote:

Yes I'm black, but I don't consider it being a handicap. I stated that we have been handicapped

Yes blacks in the past have absolutely been handicapped, currently you're not and have no excuse.

So it's an excuse to point out inherent truths?
If the inherent truths are long past their relevancy then yes.

Mentally we are still there. Ever heard of Willie Lynch?....His method of mind control has been in play for over 400 years now. We fight each other, instead of being part of a united front, and no I'm not talking about Black Pantherism.
johngriswald
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11/23/2009 1:16:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 1:14:34 PM, kelly224 wrote:
Mentally we are still there.
I'm not, I left, I suggest you do too.

Ever heard of Willie Lynch?....His method of mind control has been in play for over 400 years now.
No

We fight each other, instead of being part of a united front, and no I'm not talking about Black Pantherism.

What are you talking about then?
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kelly224
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11/23/2009 1:28:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 1:16:37 PM, johngriswald wrote:
At 11/23/2009 1:14:34 PM, kelly224 wrote:
Mentally we are still there.
I'm not, I left, I suggest you do too.

Ever heard of Willie Lynch?....His method of mind control has been in play for over 400 years now.
No

We fight each other, instead of being part of a united front, and no I'm not talking about Black Pantherism.

What are you talking about then?

Not killing each other or hating self. We are displaced, and have a hard time identifying with a certain culture, because we were removed from our original one.