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China and Opium

ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/16/2013 2:28:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Is taking the situation in China where the British introduced opium to the Chinese a good historical example of why we shouldn't have marijuana? Marijuana is a little less potent than opium, but both boil down to virtually the same thing. My argument can cite various sources of why opium/marijuana substance is dangerous.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://answers.yahoo.com...
http://isedphistory.wordpress.com...
http://faculty.quinnipiac.edu...

My sources fairly explain why Opium destroyed China's economy, society and resulted in multiple devastating wars.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,254
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2/16/2013 2:32:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You could also take the situation in Denmark, where marijuana is legalized, and they don't have the problems you cited.
dylancatlow
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2/16/2013 2:32:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 2:32:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
You could also take the situation in Denmark, where marijuana is legalized, and they don't have the problems you cited.

Wait, it's not Denmark. Is it Amsterdam only?
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/16/2013 2:40:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 2:32:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:32:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
You could also take the situation in Denmark, where marijuana is legalized, and they don't have the problems you cited.

Wait, it's not Denmark. Is it Amsterdam only?

It's Amsterdam, and here wiki cites the major problems with having cannabis in the netherlands, I will point out three:

-The citizenry is now paying via taxes for public drug rehabilitation units, I shouldn't have to pay for druggies to go to rehab

-They are illegally expoirting their cannabis to other nations that don't want it

- Major health issues have been cited

Despite the high priority given by the Dutch government to fighting illegal drug trafficking, the Netherlands continue to be an important transit point for drugs entering Europe. The Netherlands is a major producer[18] and leading distributor of cannabis, heroin, cocaine, amphetamines[19][20] and other synthetic drugs, and a medium consumer of illicit drugs.[21] Despite the crackdown by Interpol on traffic and illicit manufacture of temazepam,[22] the country has also become a major exporter of illicit temazepam of the "jelly" variety, trafficking it to the United Kingdom and other European nations.[23] The Netherlands' special synthetic drug unit, set up in 1997 to coordinate the fight against designer drugs, appears to be successful.[citation needed] The government has intensified cooperation with neighbouring countries and stepped up border controls. In recent years, it also introduced so-called 100% checks and bodyscans at Schiphol Airport on incoming flights from Dutch overseas territories Aruba and Netherlands Antilles to prevent importing cocaine by means of swallowing balloons by mules.

Although drug use, as opposed to trafficking, is seen primarily as a public health issue, responsibility for drug policy is shared by both the Ministry of Health, Welfare, and Sports, and the Ministry of Justice.

The Netherlands spends more than "130 million annually on facilities for addicts, of which about fifty percent goes to drug addicts. The Netherlands has extensive demand reduction programs, reaching about ninety percent of the country's 25,000 to 28,000 hard drug users. The number of hard drug addicts has stabilized in the past few years and their average age has risen to 38 years, which is generally seen as a positive trend. Notably, the number of drug-related deaths in the country remains amongst the lowest in Europe.[24]

On 27 November 2003, the Dutch Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner announced that his government was considering rules under which coffeeshops would only be allowed to sell soft drugs to Dutch residents in order to satisfy both European neighbors' concerns about the influx of drugs from the Netherlands, as well as those of Netherlands border town residents unhappy with the influx of "drug tourists" from elsewhere in Europe. The European Court of Justice ruled in December 2010 that Dutch authorities can ban coffee shops from selling marijuana to foreigners. The EU court said the southern Dutch city of Maastricht was within its rights when it introduced a "weed passport" in 2005 to prevent foreigners from entering cafes that sell marijuana.[25]

http://en.wikipedia.org...
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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2/16/2013 3:25:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 2:28:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Is taking the situation in China where the British introduced opium to the Chinese a good historical example of why we shouldn't have marijuana? Marijuana is a little less potent than opium, but both boil down to virtually the same thing. My argument can cite various sources of why opium/marijuana substance is dangerous.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://answers.yahoo.com...
http://isedphistory.wordpress.com...
http://faculty.quinnipiac.edu...

My sources fairly explain why Opium destroyed China's economy, society and resulted in multiple devastating wars.

Opium gets a bad rap.
Tsar of DDO
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/16/2013 3:47:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 3:25:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:28:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Is taking the situation in China where the British introduced opium to the Chinese a good historical example of why we shouldn't have marijuana? Marijuana is a little less potent than opium, but both boil down to virtually the same thing. My argument can cite various sources of why opium/marijuana substance is dangerous.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://answers.yahoo.com...
http://isedphistory.wordpress.com...
http://faculty.quinnipiac.edu...

My sources fairly explain why Opium destroyed China's economy, society and resulted in multiple devastating wars.

Opium gets a bad rap.

Did you intentionally misspell that, or was it a play on words? xP
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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2/16/2013 5:00:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 3:47:54 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 3:25:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:28:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Is taking the situation in China where the British introduced opium to the Chinese a good historical example of why we shouldn't have marijuana? Marijuana is a little less potent than opium, but both boil down to virtually the same thing. My argument can cite various sources of why opium/marijuana substance is dangerous.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://answers.yahoo.com...
http://isedphistory.wordpress.com...
http://faculty.quinnipiac.edu...

My sources fairly explain why Opium destroyed China's economy, society and resulted in multiple devastating wars.

Opium gets a bad rap.

Did you intentionally misspell that, or was it a play on words? xP

Misspell what? I literally meant that opium gets a lot of bad press. Most of it isn't justified.

Opium and the many chemical derivatives obtainable from it, are is incredibly useful.
Tsar of DDO
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/16/2013 5:01:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 5:00:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/16/2013 3:47:54 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 3:25:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:28:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Is taking the situation in China where the British introduced opium to the Chinese a good historical example of why we shouldn't have marijuana? Marijuana is a little less potent than opium, but both boil down to virtually the same thing. My argument can cite various sources of why opium/marijuana substance is dangerous.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://answers.yahoo.com...
http://isedphistory.wordpress.com...
http://faculty.quinnipiac.edu...

My sources fairly explain why Opium destroyed China's economy, society and resulted in multiple devastating wars.

Opium gets a bad rap.

Did you intentionally misspell that, or was it a play on words? xP

Misspell what? I literally meant that opium gets a lot of bad press. Most of it isn't justified.

Opium and the many chemical derivatives obtainable from it, are is incredibly useful.


Medically, yes, recreational opium usage (as what happened in China), as I have proven above, has fatal consequences to a nation and it's people.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/16/2013 5:56:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 2:40:19 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:32:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:32:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
You could also take the situation in Denmark, where marijuana is legalized, and they don't have the problems you cited.

Wait, it's not Denmark. Is it Amsterdam only?

It's Amsterdam, and here wiki cites the major problems with having cannabis in the netherlands, I will point out three:

-The citizenry is now paying via taxes for public drug rehabilitation units, I shouldn't have to pay for druggies to go to rehab

It's a helluva lot cheaper than paying to jail them, and it also increases the chance you won't incur some expense related to drug use for the rest of the person's life.

Treat it like a epidemic (of the human condition), not a crime, and you win the battle, or at least stem the tide.

Where are my libertarians at? Drugs are good, right?
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/16/2013 6:00:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 5:56:03 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:40:19 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:32:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:32:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
You could also take the situation in Denmark, where marijuana is legalized, and they don't have the problems you cited.

Wait, it's not Denmark. Is it Amsterdam only?

It's Amsterdam, and here wiki cites the major problems with having cannabis in the netherlands, I will point out three:

-The citizenry is now paying via taxes for public drug rehabilitation units, I shouldn't have to pay for druggies to go to rehab

It's a helluva lot cheaper than paying to jail them, and it also increases the chance you won't incur some expense related to drug use for the rest of the person's life.

No, the gov't could make profit if instead of having the prison system mold criminals in to better criminals, they taught them a basic work ethic and put them to work.

Treat it like a epidemic (of the human condition), not a crime, and you win the battle, or at least stem the tide.

I don't believe it's a crime, more a plague of society and the productivity of a nation.

Where are my libertarians at? Drugs are good, right?

I am partially libertarian, and I don't believe drugs are good.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/16/2013 6:01:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
1. Marijuana and opium have absolutely nothing in common.

2. Destroyed the economy by what standard? If people are only making enough to live and get high, what is that to you? They're happy and it doesn't infringe economically on anything non-opium users are doing.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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2/16/2013 6:10:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 6:01:18 PM, FREEDO wrote:
1. Marijuana and opium have absolutely nothing in common.

Other than the fact that they both should be legalized.

2. Destroyed the economy by what standard? If people are only making enough to live and get high, what is that to you? They're happy and it doesn't infringe economically on anything non-opium users are doing.

Fact.
Tsar of DDO
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/16/2013 6:12:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 6:00:15 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 5:56:03 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:40:19 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:32:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:32:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
You could also take the situation in Denmark, where marijuana is legalized, and they don't have the problems you cited.

Wait, it's not Denmark. Is it Amsterdam only?

It's Amsterdam, and here wiki cites the major problems with having cannabis in the netherlands, I will point out three:

-The citizenry is now paying via taxes for public drug rehabilitation units, I shouldn't have to pay for druggies to go to rehab

It's a helluva lot cheaper than paying to jail them, and it also increases the chance you won't incur some expense related to drug use for the rest of the person's life.

No, the gov't could make profit if instead of having the prison system mold criminals in to better criminals, they taught them a basic work ethic and put them to work.

Not sure slave labor is the answer here...

Treat it like a epidemic (of the human condition), not a crime, and you win the battle, or at least stem the tide.

I don't believe it's a crime, more a plague of society and the productivity of a nation.

Heroin users are ridiculously productive...not the corner junkie you see on TV, but the real heroin users out there. Why? Heroin is expensive and they need to score their next 8-ball after work.

Speed addicts can be productive for a time, but this always breaks down.

I went through college high on pot (EVERY DAY, with no exceptions as long as classes were in session), and I was ridiculously productive at school. I didn't get high for class, but that was only because I could break into uncontrollable laughter at any moment, and it wasn't good for any friends sitting in the vicinity.

Where are my libertarians at? Drugs are good, right?

I am partially libertarian, and I don't believe drugs are good.

Cool.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/16/2013 6:54:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 6:01:18 PM, FREEDO wrote:
1. Marijuana and opium have absolutely nothing in common.

2. Destroyed the economy by what standard? If people are only making enough to live and get high, what is that to you? They're happy and it doesn't infringe economically on anything non-opium users are doing.

You obviously did not read any of my sources, no point in responding to those who refuse to even read my full argument.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/16/2013 7:14:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 6:54:45 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:01:18 PM, FREEDO wrote:
1. Marijuana and opium have absolutely nothing in common.

2. Destroyed the economy by what standard? If people are only making enough to live and get high, what is that to you? They're happy and it doesn't infringe economically on anything non-opium users are doing.

You obviously did not read any of my sources, no point in responding to those who refuse to even read my full argument.

The primary claim from you sources of how opium destroyed the economy is that it created a trade deficit because everyone was trading their silver to outsiders for opium. But this is hugely fallacious. Firstly, if it weren't for the government ban on opium, they could have grown it at home and no such issue would exist. Secondly, they could have also fixed it by having something of their own to export that people outside valued.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/16/2013 7:20:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Drugs are great, don't tell us what we can and can't do. We aren't comparable to the Chinese.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/16/2013 7:24:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 7:14:58 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:54:45 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:01:18 PM, FREEDO wrote:
1. Marijuana and opium have absolutely nothing in common.

2. Destroyed the economy by what standard? If people are only making enough to live and get high, what is that to you? They're happy and it doesn't infringe economically on anything non-opium users are doing.

You obviously did not read any of my sources, no point in responding to those who refuse to even read my full argument.

The primary claim from you sources of how opium destroyed the economy is that it created a trade deficit because everyone was trading their silver to outsiders for opium. But this is hugely fallacious. Firstly, if it weren't for the government ban on opium, they could have grown it at home and no such issue would exist. Secondly, they could have also fixed it by having something of their own to export that people outside valued.

Yeah, that sh!t grows like wildflowers...oh wait...never mind.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/16/2013 7:24:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also those are terrible sources,
Wikipedia, yahoo answers, some college student's term paper and this guy's blog
http://isedphistory.files.wordpress.com...
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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2/16/2013 7:54:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 5:56:03 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:40:19 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:32:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:32:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
You could also take the situation in Denmark, where marijuana is legalized, and they don't have the problems you cited.

Wait, it's not Denmark. Is it Amsterdam only?

It's Amsterdam, and here wiki cites the major problems with having cannabis in the netherlands, I will point out three:

-The citizenry is now paying via taxes for public drug rehabilitation units, I shouldn't have to pay for druggies to go to rehab

It's a helluva lot cheaper than paying to jail them, and it also increases the chance you won't incur some expense related to drug use for the rest of the person's life.

Treat it like a epidemic (of the human condition), not a crime, and you win the battle, or at least stem the tide.

Where are my libertarians at? Drugs are good, right?

I'm libertarian and I say drugz r bad mmmk?
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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2/16/2013 8:00:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 2:28:34 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Is taking the situation in China where the British introduced opium to the Chinese a good historical example of why we shouldn't have marijuana? Marijuana is a little less potent than opium, but both boil down to virtually the same thing. My argument can cite various sources of why opium/marijuana substance is dangerous.

Yes, wasn't that nice behavior on the part of Western capitalists, i.e., engaging in a wanton bit of military aggression to force China to remain an unwilling market for a life-destroying addictive substance. Yeah, so much for the commitment of real-world capitalists to the "libertarian" principle of nonaggression and to the concept of a "free market" promoting human welfare.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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2/16/2013 8:07:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 7:54:39 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/16/2013 5:56:03 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:40:19 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:32:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:32:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
You could also take the situation in Denmark, where marijuana is legalized, and they don't have the problems you cited.

Wait, it's not Denmark. Is it Amsterdam only?

It's Amsterdam, and here wiki cites the major problems with having cannabis in the netherlands, I will point out three:

-The citizenry is now paying via taxes for public drug rehabilitation units, I shouldn't have to pay for druggies to go to rehab

It's a helluva lot cheaper than paying to jail them, and it also increases the chance you won't incur some expense related to drug use for the rest of the person's life.

Treat it like a epidemic (of the human condition), not a crime, and you win the battle, or at least stem the tide.

Where are my libertarians at? Drugs are good, right?

I'm libertarian and I say drugz r bad mmmk?

Yoo-hoo, Garret, I've posted some comments about pro-lifers and what really motivates their activism that you might perhaps wish to peruse, http://www.debate.org...
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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2/16/2013 8:53:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 7:14:58 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:54:45 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:01:18 PM, FREEDO wrote:
1. Marijuana and opium have absolutely nothing in common.

2. Destroyed the economy by what standard? If people are only making enough to live and get high, what is that to you? They're happy and it doesn't infringe economically on anything non-opium users are doing.

You obviously did not read any of my sources, no point in responding to those who refuse to even read my full argument.

The primary claim from you sources of how opium destroyed the economy is that it created a trade deficit because everyone was trading their silver to outsiders for opium. But this is hugely fallacious. Firstly, if it weren't for the government ban on opium, they could have grown it at home and no such issue would exist. Secondly, they could have also fixed it by having something of their own to export that people outside valued.

^^^^^
This
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/16/2013 10:17:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 7:14:58 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:54:45 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:01:18 PM, FREEDO wrote:
1. Marijuana and opium have absolutely nothing in common.

2. Destroyed the economy by what standard? If people are only making enough to live and get high, what is that to you? They're happy and it doesn't infringe economically on anything non-opium users are doing.

You obviously did not read any of my sources, no point in responding to those who refuse to even read my full argument.

The primary claim from you sources of how opium destroyed the economy is that it created a trade deficit because everyone was trading their silver to outsiders for opium. But this is hugely fallacious. Firstly, if it weren't for the government ban on opium, they could have grown it at home and no such issue would exist. Secondly, they could have also fixed it by having something of their own to export that people outside valued.

You are assuming this, history is history and is not changeable, what happened should be observed and considered, not justified or twisted.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/16/2013 10:26:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 10:17:26 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 7:14:58 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:54:45 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:01:18 PM, FREEDO wrote:
1. Marijuana and opium have absolutely nothing in common.

2. Destroyed the economy by what standard? If people are only making enough to live and get high, what is that to you? They're happy and it doesn't infringe economically on anything non-opium users are doing.

You obviously did not read any of my sources, no point in responding to those who refuse to even read my full argument.

The primary claim from you sources of how opium destroyed the economy is that it created a trade deficit because everyone was trading their silver to outsiders for opium. But this is hugely fallacious. Firstly, if it weren't for the government ban on opium, they could have grown it at home and no such issue would exist. Secondly, they could have also fixed it by having something of their own to export that people outside valued.

You are assuming this, history is history and is not changeable, what happened should be observed and considered, not justified or twisted.

You can't change history but you can examine it to determine a course for the future so as not to repeat the mistakes of the past, can you not?
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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2/16/2013 10:35:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 10:26:50 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/16/2013 10:17:26 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 7:14:58 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:54:45 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:01:18 PM, FREEDO wrote:
1. Marijuana and opium have absolutely nothing in common.

2. Destroyed the economy by what standard? If people are only making enough to live and get high, what is that to you? They're happy and it doesn't infringe economically on anything non-opium users are doing.

You obviously did not read any of my sources, no point in responding to those who refuse to even read my full argument.

The primary claim from you sources of how opium destroyed the economy is that it created a trade deficit because everyone was trading their silver to outsiders for opium. But this is hugely fallacious. Firstly, if it weren't for the government ban on opium, they could have grown it at home and no such issue would exist. Secondly, they could have also fixed it by having something of their own to export that people outside valued.

You are assuming this, history is history and is not changeable, what happened should be observed and considered, not justified or twisted.

You can't change history but you can examine it to determine a course for the future so as not to repeat the mistakes of the past, can you not?

You do realize, that unless china put the boxer rebellion a couple hundred years before it happened (it ended up being a huge failure, in case you didn't know what it was), they couldn't have done this. The Europeans (primarily the Brits) introduced opium to China to maximize profits and coerce the gov't in to encouraging people to buy it.

China could not have changed history unless they managed to beat one of the world's, if not the world's most notorious empire.
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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2/16/2013 11:08:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 8:07:50 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 2/16/2013 7:54:39 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/16/2013 5:56:03 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:40:19 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:32:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:32:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
You could also take the situation in Denmark, where marijuana is legalized, and they don't have the problems you cited.

Wait, it's not Denmark. Is it Amsterdam only?

It's Amsterdam, and here wiki cites the major problems with having cannabis in the netherlands, I will point out three:

-The citizenry is now paying via taxes for public drug rehabilitation units, I shouldn't have to pay for druggies to go to rehab

It's a helluva lot cheaper than paying to jail them, and it also increases the chance you won't incur some expense related to drug use for the rest of the person's life.

Treat it like a epidemic (of the human condition), not a crime, and you win the battle, or at least stem the tide.

Where are my libertarians at? Drugs are good, right?

I'm libertarian and I say drugz r bad mmmk?

Yoo-hoo, Garret, I've posted some comments about pro-lifers and what really motivates their activism that you might perhaps wish to peruse, http://www.debate.org...

I don't respect your opinion on the matter enough to dignify it with a response. I just don't like the way you debate things. You come off like a troll
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
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dylancatlow
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2/16/2013 11:56:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Marijuana is a little less potent than opium, but both boil down to virtually the same thing."

Then you should be for prohibition if you're going what they 'boil down to'. You should also be for making all things which are harmful to the human body illegal. Moreover, marijuana is not a LITTLE LESS potent than opium. Wrong.
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2/17/2013 12:17:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 7:14:58 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:54:45 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 6:01:18 PM, FREEDO wrote:
1. Marijuana and opium have absolutely nothing in common.

2. Destroyed the economy by what standard? If people are only making enough to live and get high, what is that to you? They're happy and it doesn't infringe economically on anything non-opium users are doing.

You obviously did not read any of my sources, no point in responding to those who refuse to even read my full argument.

The primary claim from you sources of how opium destroyed the economy is that it created a trade deficit because everyone was trading their silver to outsiders for opium. But this is hugely fallacious. Firstly, if it weren't for the government ban on opium, they could have grown it at home and no such issue would exist. Secondly, they could have also fixed it by having something of their own to export that people outside valued.

Fact: China did not ban opium immediately. They let it roam the market for a while before any move was made toward its illegalization. The wait was simply due to lack of precedence: China had never been infested by an opium-like drug. They did not know that the nation would be losing so much money or that their people would become so addicted.
The deciding factors: An immense number of Chinese became perfectly addicted to opium. Their economic output went from bad to worse. Government administrators/officials who fell into the addiction were consequently horrid conductors of their posts. The flow of capital and currency out of China was reversed as China was losing money exponentially. In several decades, China would be in economic despair.
I think this was reason enough to try to stop the spread of Opium.

Your 'secondly' already exists. The secondly is silly as you might as well give this advice to all the African nations. Lack of capital/resources aside, African nations are
a. undeveloped
b. politically chaotic
c. not unified
Due to centuries of exploitation by colonialists. The 'civilized' societies have already taken most of the things that could bring any substantial amount of profit from Africa, whose demography and infrastructure is ravished by colonialism.

If 'secondly' truly worked, there would be no economic conflicts in the world as all any nation has to do to reverse bad economic situations would be to 'find something'.
It's not that easy.
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2/17/2013 12:21:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
All China had to do was 'have' something, as if they could magically have things out of thin air. Things require labor, capital and resources. China was losing all three.
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muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/17/2013 3:25:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 2:40:19 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:32:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/16/2013 2:32:08 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
You could also take the situation in Denmark, where marijuana is legalized, and they don't have the problems you cited.

Wait, it's not Denmark. Is it Amsterdam only?

It's Amsterdam, and here wiki cites the major problems with having cannabis in the netherlands, I will point out three:

-The citizenry is now paying via taxes for public drug rehabilitation units, I shouldn't have to pay for druggies to go to rehab

This is not from cannabis use, which has actually gone down since legalisation. The tax brought in from it, and the tourist scene it brings, more then pays for any such services.


-They are illegally expoirting their cannabis to other nations that don't want it

Wrong. Criminals are. This is like blaming Canada for what cannabis growers in BC produce, which happens to be approximately 60% of the worlds cannabis supply.


- Major health issues have been cited

Like?


Despite the high priority given by the Dutch government to fighting illegal drug trafficking, the Netherlands continue to be an important transit point for drugs entering Europe. The Netherlands is a major producer[18] and leading distributor of cannabis,

Wrong

heroin,

Wrong

cocaine, amphetamines[19][20] and other synthetic drugs,

Dunno about these. But the main exporter of cannabis is Canada, and the main exporter of heroin is some middle eastern country, not sure which.

and a medium consumer of illicit drugs.[21] Despite the crackdown by Interpol on traffic and illicit manufacture of temazepam,[22] the country has also become a major exporter of illicit temazepam of the "jelly" variety, trafficking it to the United Kingdom and other European nations.[23] The Netherlands' special synthetic drug unit, set up in 1997 to coordinate the fight against designer drugs, appears to be successful.[citation needed] The government has intensified cooperation with neighbouring countries and stepped up border controls. In recent years, it also introduced so-called 100% checks and bodyscans at Schiphol Airport on incoming flights from Dutch overseas territories Aruba and Netherlands Antilles to prevent importing cocaine by means of swallowing balloons by mules.

Although drug use, as opposed to trafficking, is seen primarily as a public health issue, responsibility for drug policy is shared by both the Ministry of Health, Welfare, and Sports, and the Ministry of Justice.

The Netherlands spends more than "130 million annually on facilities for addicts, of which about fifty percent goes to drug addicts. The Netherlands has extensive demand reduction programs, reaching about ninety percent of the country's 25,000 to 28,000 hard drug users. The number of hard drug addicts has stabilized in the past few years and their average age has risen to 38 years, which is generally seen as a positive trend. Notably, the number of drug-related deaths in the country remains amongst the lowest in Europe.[24]

On 27 November 2003, the Dutch Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner announced that his government was considering rules under which coffeeshops would only be allowed to sell soft drugs to Dutch residents in order to satisfy both European neighbors' concerns about the influx of drugs from the Netherlands, as well as those of Netherlands border town residents unhappy with the influx of "drug tourists" from elsewhere in Europe. The European Court of Justice ruled in December 2010 that Dutch authorities can ban coffee shops from selling marijuana to foreigners. The EU court said the southern Dutch city of Maastricht was within its rights when it introduced a "weed passport" in 2005 to prevent foreigners from entering cafes that sell marijuana.[25]

http://en.wikipedia.org...
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.