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Forced Equal Opportunity

drafterman
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2/23/2013 12:58:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Can it actually hide sexism/racism?

I was reading an article in "Entertainment Weekly" about Linda Hunt. It mentioned that she is the only person to have won an Oscar for portraying a member of the opposite sex (specifically, Billy Kwan in "The Year of Living Dangerously" (1982)). I idly wondered which Oscar she won (male performance or female performance)!

I then thought it a bit odd and archaic that we even have separate categories for men and women in such things. It's not like this is a sport, where there are undeniable differences that warrant a distinction (unless we assume some sort of inherent difference in acting skill between men and women, and I'm not).

Then I realized if we assume, on average, that men and women are of equal acting skill, and we only had a single unisex aware for best actor, then any inherent sexism in the system (be it casting, scripting, awarding, etc.) would become readily apparent through statistical analysis of how often men won vs. women. However, by having two categories, and forcing them to choose one from each, any such prejudice or discrimination is hidden. After all, at the end of the day the best female actor is only the best among females regardless of whether or not such roles are, or are judged to be, better than in comparison to all roles independent of sex.

What are the chances that this is, or could be, the case? Is this an example of the thought process: "If we acknowledge them with an award, then they'll be placated enough so that we don't actually have to grant true equality?" Should we eliminate gender distinctions where there isn't a compelling reason to have them?
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2013 2:06:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 12:58:42 PM, drafterman wrote:
Can it actually hide sexism/racism?

I was reading an article in "Entertainment Weekly" about Linda Hunt. It mentioned that she is the only person to have won an Oscar for portraying a member of the opposite sex (specifically, Billy Kwan in "The Year of Living Dangerously" (1982)). I idly wondered which Oscar she won (male performance or female performance)!

I then thought it a bit odd and archaic that we even have separate categories for men and women in such things. It's not like this is a sport, where there are undeniable differences that warrant a distinction (unless we assume some sort of inherent difference in acting skill between men and women, and I'm not).

Then I realized if we assume, on average, that men and women are of equal acting skill, and we only had a single unisex aware for best actor, then any inherent sexism in the system (be it casting, scripting, awarding, etc.) would become readily apparent through statistical analysis of how often men won vs. women. However, by having two categories, and forcing them to choose one from each, any such prejudice or discrimination is hidden. After all, at the end of the day the best female actor is only the best among females regardless of whether or not such roles are, or are judged to be, better than in comparison to all roles independent of sex.

What are the chances that this is, or could be, the case? Is this an example of the thought process: "If we acknowledge them with an award, then they'll be placated enough so that we don't actually have to grant true equality?" Should we eliminate gender distinctions where there isn't a compelling reason to have them?

It is an interesting point, indeed. I've thought about this a lot. Judging by the pointed lack of females in all areas of film, including acting, it seems to be good that there are categories based on gender because it makes women in the field more visible than they would be otherwise. Blatant sexism is rampant in the film industry. Ever heard of the Bechdel test? A large majority of films fail the Bechdel test. And this is due in part because it is literally encouraged in film to do so.

On the other hand, I tend to doubt that that is the reason the distinction was made in the first place.

And if we really want to talk about "underrepresented in film"- racial minorities. The amount of racial minorities who have won awards for their contributions to film is embarrassingly low. It's really pretty bad. But how taboo would it be to make a "black/hispanic/asian award" and a "white award"?
Just a thought.

I think a lot of this has to do with perceived marketability of women-centered films within the film industry. Women actually are the ones who spend the most money on films and film executives have this idea in their head that women will watch movies about men but men will not watch movies about women (where this data comes from seems to be a crotchety old dude in a pin-striped suit clinging to the sixties). Same goes for minorities vs white people. If most movies featuring women were not played-out, stereotypical portrayals of women in cliche, formulaic romantic comedies, I'm sure men would be happy to watch them. In fact, I'm 100% certain that men like watching women.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/23/2013 2:14:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 2:06:55 PM, Oryus wrote:
If most movies featuring women were not played-out, stereotypical portrayals of women in cliche, formulaic romantic comedies, I'm sure men would be happy to watch them. In fact, I'm 100% certain that men like watching women.

I would just point at as me, as a relatively stereotypical upper-middle class white male teen, I don't like it in, say, an action movie where the protagonist is female. It just isn't as cool to me. Mainly because of how in action movies, video games, whatever, RELATING to the character is important. A lot of guys watch action movies. I personally like watching woman.......but I don't like them to be my action hero, or my thriller hero. I like watching movies with female protagonists....just not action/thriller/videogames.

And, NO its not sexism, its preference. I don't even know why I prefer that all that much TBH.
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Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2013 2:36:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 2:22:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I don't understand. What's wrong with gender distinction?

In this medium? I think he's just saying that it's arbitrary though in this medium it may play a positive role because of the lacking featured women.

It would be just as arbitrary to have men and women book awards because there is nothing between men and women which would make their capability to do the job different. Whereas in something like running or jumping, there is definitely not a level playing field there due solely to sex.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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2/23/2013 2:43:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 2:36:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:22:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I don't understand. What's wrong with gender distinction?

In this medium? I think he's just saying that it's arbitrary though in this medium it may play a positive role because of the lacking featured women.

It would be just as arbitrary to have men and women book awards because there is nothing between men and women which would make their capability to do the job different. Whereas in something like running or jumping, there is definitely not a level playing field there due solely to sex.

I'm sorry, I don't see any clarity in what you are saying. I still don't understand.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2013 2:44:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 2:43:12 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:36:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:22:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I don't understand. What's wrong with gender distinction?

In this medium? I think he's just saying that it's arbitrary though in this medium it may play a positive role because of the lacking featured women.

It would be just as arbitrary to have men and women book awards because there is nothing between men and women which would make their capability to do the job different. Whereas in something like running or jumping, there is definitely not a level playing field there due solely to sex.

I'm sorry, I don't see any clarity in what you are saying. I still don't understand.

If it helps, do you think it would be acceptable and/or necessary to make black and white awards for acting and/or book-writing?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2013 2:44:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 2:44:22 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:43:12 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:36:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:22:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I don't understand. What's wrong with gender distinction?

In this medium? I think he's just saying that it's arbitrary though in this medium it may play a positive role because of the lacking featured women.

It would be just as arbitrary to have men and women book awards because there is nothing between men and women which would make their capability to do the job different. Whereas in something like running or jumping, there is definitely not a level playing field there due solely to sex.

I'm sorry, I don't see any clarity in what you are saying. I still don't understand.

If it helps, do you think it would be acceptable and/or necessary to make black and white awards for acting and/or book-writing?

Or to make it even more clear, distinction between gay and straight people for book-writing and acting?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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2/23/2013 2:47:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 2:44:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:44:22 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:43:12 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:36:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:22:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I don't understand. What's wrong with gender distinction?

In this medium? I think he's just saying that it's arbitrary though in this medium it may play a positive role because of the lacking featured women.

It would be just as arbitrary to have men and women book awards because there is nothing between men and women which would make their capability to do the job different. Whereas in something like running or jumping, there is definitely not a level playing field there due solely to sex.

I'm sorry, I don't see any clarity in what you are saying. I still don't understand.

If it helps, do you think it would be acceptable and/or necessary to make black and white awards for acting and/or book-writing?

Or to make it even more clear, distinction between gay and straight people for book-writing and acting?

Not a valid comparison. There is male and female distinction beyond athletic ability.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/23/2013 2:49:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 2:47:28 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:44:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:44:22 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:43:12 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:36:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:22:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I don't understand. What's wrong with gender distinction?

In this medium? I think he's just saying that it's arbitrary though in this medium it may play a positive role because of the lacking featured women.

It would be just as arbitrary to have men and women book awards because there is nothing between men and women which would make their capability to do the job different. Whereas in something like running or jumping, there is definitely not a level playing field there due solely to sex.

I'm sorry, I don't see any clarity in what you are saying. I still don't understand.

If it helps, do you think it would be acceptable and/or necessary to make black and white awards for acting and/or book-writing?

Or to make it even more clear, distinction between gay and straight people for book-writing and acting?

Not a valid comparison. There is male and female distinction beyond athletic ability.

There's aggregate average differences between any set you can group. Race, sexual orientation, and so forth.
Open borders debate:
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Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2013 2:51:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 2:47:28 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:44:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:44:22 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:43:12 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:36:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:22:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I don't understand. What's wrong with gender distinction?

In this medium? I think he's just saying that it's arbitrary though in this medium it may play a positive role because of the lacking featured women.

It would be just as arbitrary to have men and women book awards because there is nothing between men and women which would make their capability to do the job different. Whereas in something like running or jumping, there is definitely not a level playing field there due solely to sex.

I'm sorry, I don't see any clarity in what you are saying. I still don't understand.

If it helps, do you think it would be acceptable and/or necessary to make black and white awards for acting and/or book-writing?

Or to make it even more clear, distinction between gay and straight people for book-writing and acting?

Not a valid comparison. There is male and female distinction beyond athletic ability.

And that crosses over into acting and writing books to the point where men are better at it simply because they are men, giving women a very small chance of winning?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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2/23/2013 2:52:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 2:49:35 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:47:28 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:44:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:44:22 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:43:12 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:36:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:22:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I don't understand. What's wrong with gender distinction?

In this medium? I think he's just saying that it's arbitrary though in this medium it may play a positive role because of the lacking featured women.

It would be just as arbitrary to have men and women book awards because there is nothing between men and women which would make their capability to do the job different. Whereas in something like running or jumping, there is definitely not a level playing field there due solely to sex.

I'm sorry, I don't see any clarity in what you are saying. I still don't understand.

If it helps, do you think it would be acceptable and/or necessary to make black and white awards for acting and/or book-writing?

Or to make it even more clear, distinction between gay and straight people for book-writing and acting?

Not a valid comparison. There is male and female distinction beyond athletic ability.

There's aggregate average differences between any set you can group. Race, sexual orientation, and so forth.

You are just looking to confuse and obfuscate. There is nothing wrong with gender distinction.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2013 2:57:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 2:52:34 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:49:35 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:47:28 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:44:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:44:22 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:43:12 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:36:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:22:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I don't understand. What's wrong with gender distinction?

In this medium? I think he's just saying that it's arbitrary though in this medium it may play a positive role because of the lacking featured women.

It would be just as arbitrary to have men and women book awards because there is nothing between men and women which would make their capability to do the job different. Whereas in something like running or jumping, there is definitely not a level playing field there due solely to sex.

I'm sorry, I don't see any clarity in what you are saying. I still don't understand.

If it helps, do you think it would be acceptable and/or necessary to make black and white awards for acting and/or book-writing?

Or to make it even more clear, distinction between gay and straight people for book-writing and acting?

Not a valid comparison. There is male and female distinction beyond athletic ability.

There's aggregate average differences between any set you can group. Race, sexual orientation, and so forth.

You are just looking to confuse and obfuscate. There is nothing wrong with gender distinction.

I don't get the impression that anyone is saying that it is "wrong"- we are only saying that it is arbitrary and that there are pros and cons regarding the distinction's necessity.

However, the distinction still isn't necessary because men and women are different in acting ability but rather, because men and women are treated differently in the film industry.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2013 3:01:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 2:57:21 PM, darkkermit wrote:
speaking of which, blacks actors do get their own awards for best black actor. The BET awards:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

So BET, created specifically because of the lack of visibility of minorities in the media, gives out it's own awards. Shocker. How many people in that ceremony do you think probably wanted to be at the Oscars instead of at an event which is as prestigious as the MTV awards?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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2/23/2013 3:05:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 2:57:48 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:52:34 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:49:35 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:47:28 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:44:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:44:22 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:43:12 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:36:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:22:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I don't understand. What's wrong with gender distinction?

In this medium? I think he's just saying that it's arbitrary though in this medium it may play a positive role because of the lacking featured women.

It would be just as arbitrary to have men and women book awards because there is nothing between men and women which would make their capability to do the job different. Whereas in something like running or jumping, there is definitely not a level playing field there due solely to sex.

I'm sorry, I don't see any clarity in what you are saying. I still don't understand.

If it helps, do you think it would be acceptable and/or necessary to make black and white awards for acting and/or book-writing?

Or to make it even more clear, distinction between gay and straight people for book-writing and acting?

Not a valid comparison. There is male and female distinction beyond athletic ability.

There's aggregate average differences between any set you can group. Race, sexual orientation, and so forth.

You are just looking to confuse and obfuscate. There is nothing wrong with gender distinction.

I don't get the impression that anyone is saying that it is "wrong"- we are only saying that it is arbitrary and that there are pros and cons regarding the distinction's necessity.

However, the distinction still isn't necessary because men and women are different in acting ability but rather, because men and women are treated differently in the film industry.

First of all, it was called "odd" and "archaic" in the OP, so I would say that someone is saying it's wrong. Secondly, a leading man, and a leading woman role are distinctly different, and the genders are not interchangeable because of their distinctions. It would be absurd to cast a woman for the role of Lincoln, just as it would be absurd to cast a man for the role of Elizabeth I.

Simply because there is some group-think mentality that wishes to erase the gender distinctions doesn't make it true that there aren't gender distinctions.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/23/2013 3:09:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 2:22:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I don't understand. What's wrong with gender distinction?

If there were a single, unisex category for best actor, then an analysis of the winners, over time, would reveal any gender bias inherent in the system. For example, if the ratio of male winners to female winners was 3:1, that may raise some eyebrows as to why.

By having gendered catagories, you obfuscate any such potential bias because you can't make any such comparison.

Thus, forced equal opportunity hiding types of discrimination.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2013 3:13:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 3:05:14 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:57:48 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:52:34 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:49:35 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:47:28 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:44:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:44:22 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:43:12 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:36:58 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:22:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I don't understand. What's wrong with gender distinction?

In this medium? I think he's just saying that it's arbitrary though in this medium it may play a positive role because of the lacking featured women.

It would be just as arbitrary to have men and women book awards because there is nothing between men and women which would make their capability to do the job different. Whereas in something like running or jumping, there is definitely not a level playing field there due solely to sex.

I'm sorry, I don't see any clarity in what you are saying. I still don't understand.

If it helps, do you think it would be acceptable and/or necessary to make black and white awards for acting and/or book-writing?

Or to make it even more clear, distinction between gay and straight people for book-writing and acting?

Not a valid comparison. There is male and female distinction beyond athletic ability.

There's aggregate average differences between any set you can group. Race, sexual orientation, and so forth.

You are just looking to confuse and obfuscate. There is nothing wrong with gender distinction.

I don't get the impression that anyone is saying that it is "wrong"- we are only saying that it is arbitrary and that there are pros and cons regarding the distinction's necessity.

However, the distinction still isn't necessary because men and women are different in acting ability but rather, because men and women are treated differently in the film industry.

First of all, it was called "odd" and "archaic" in the OP, so I would say that someone is saying it's wrong. Secondly, a leading man, and a leading woman role are distinctly different, and the genders are not interchangeable because of their distinctions. It would be absurd to cast a woman for the role of Lincoln, just as it would be absurd to cast a man for the role of Elizabeth I.

Simply because there is some group-think mentality that wishes to erase the gender distinctions doesn't make it true that there aren't gender distinctions.

haha Now it's my turn to be confused.

There is no group-think going on. I don't see that you've given any reason why the performances of someone who acted as Lincoln and someone who acted as Elizabeth I can't be measured against each other. To me those performances would be perfect to be measured against each other because they would both be dramas- both historical dramas at that. They are the same genre and thus require the same of acting ability. Why distinguish the two simply because one is played by a woman and one is played by a man? It's about acting ability. Shall we have a little people award along side women and men's categories simply because only little people can play little people?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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2/23/2013 3:13:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 3:09:22 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:22:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I don't understand. What's wrong with gender distinction?

If there were a single, unisex category for best actor, then an analysis of the winners, over time, would reveal any gender bias inherent in the system. For example, if the ratio of male winners to female winners was 3:1, that may raise some eyebrows as to why.


Or it could reveal that one gender is better at acting than another.

By having gendered catagories, you obfuscate any such potential bias because you can't make any such comparison.


That doesn't really make sense. By having gender categories you are making sure that both genders are considered on their merit. By doing what you propose you are creating a problem that doesn't exist.

Thus, forced equal opportunity hiding types of discrimination.

Gotta tell you bud, that's just really stupid.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/23/2013 3:17:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 3:01:32 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:57:21 PM, darkkermit wrote:
speaking of which, blacks actors do get their own awards for best black actor. The BET awards:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

So BET, created specifically because of the lack of visibility of minorities in the media, gives out it's own awards. Shocker. How many people in that ceremony do you think probably wanted to be at the Oscars instead of at an event which is as prestigious as the MTV awards?

BET created it because they can do whatever they want and its socially acceptable to create these awards. There's no inherent purpose of it.

Asians are underrepresented in the movies, but nobody gets bent out of shape over that.

Hell, I'd like to see the data that Africans really receive less awards then whites as a proportion of their race in the US.
Open borders debate:
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Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2013 4:24:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 3:17:52 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/23/2013 3:01:32 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:57:21 PM, darkkermit wrote:
speaking of which, blacks actors do get their own awards for best black actor. The BET awards:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

So BET, created specifically because of the lack of visibility of minorities in the media, gives out it's own awards. Shocker. How many people in that ceremony do you think probably wanted to be at the Oscars instead of at an event which is as prestigious as the MTV awards?

BET created it because they can do whatever they want and its socially acceptable to create these awards. There's no inherent purpose of it.

It isn't socially acceptable actually. People are always accusing BET of being "racist against whites." Meanwhile many black people accuse BET of promoting stereotypes of black people, thus being racist against black people. The only way in which BET is socially acceptable is if you acknowledge that it maintains the status quo- black people are like this, white people are like that, and black people should have their own little corner. If I were black, I would certainly be insulted. I'm insulted even now as someone who isn't black. Not only is it patronizing and unnecessary, it is marginalizing.
Asians are underrepresented in the movies, but nobody gets bent out of shape over that.

What? Yeah, they do actually. All the time.
Here's a tiny list taken from the thousands of links I could have sent you:
http://www.guardian.co.uk...
http://www.examiner.com...
http://www.imdb.com...
http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com...
http://herocomplex.latimes.com...
http://io9.com...
http://racebending.livejournal.com...

Hell, I'd like to see the data that Africans really receive less awards then whites as a proportion of their race in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com...
"Black actors have won 13 Academy Awards over the years, in fact, by 12 people (Washington has won two). But that's out of a possible 332 given out since 1929, a paltry 4 percent."
http://quickfacts.census.gov...
As of 2011, black people make up 13% of the U.S. population.

Happy?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2013 4:27:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 4:24:51 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 3:17:52 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/23/2013 3:01:32 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:57:21 PM, darkkermit wrote:
speaking of which, blacks actors do get their own awards for best black actor. The BET awards:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

So BET, created specifically because of the lack of visibility of minorities in the media, gives out it's own awards. Shocker. How many people in that ceremony do you think probably wanted to be at the Oscars instead of at an event which is as prestigious as the MTV awards?

BET created it because they can do whatever they want and its socially acceptable to create these awards. There's no inherent purpose of it.

It isn't socially acceptable actually. People are always accusing BET of being "racist against whites." Meanwhile many black people accuse BET of promoting stereotypes of black people, thus being racist against black people. The only way in which BET is socially acceptable is if you acknowledge that it maintains the status quo- black people are like this, white people are like that, and black people should have their own little corner. If I were black, I would certainly be insulted. I'm insulted even now as someone who isn't black. Not only is it patronizing and unnecessary, it is marginalizing.
Asians are underrepresented in the movies, but nobody gets bent out of shape over that.

What? Yeah, they do actually. All the time.
Here's a tiny list taken from the thousands of links I could have sent you:
http://www.guardian.co.uk...
http://www.examiner.com...
http://www.imdb.com...
http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com...
http://herocomplex.latimes.com...
http://io9.com...
http://racebending.livejournal.com...

Hell, I'd like to see the data that Africans really receive less awards then whites as a proportion of their race in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com...
"Black actors have won 13 Academy Awards over the years, in fact, by 12 people (Washington has won two). But that's out of a possible 332 given out since 1929, a paltry 4 percent."
http://quickfacts.census.gov...
As of 2011, black people make up 13% of the U.S. population.

Happy?

And mind you- this is 4% out of the awards TOTAL OVER TIME- not just each individual year. Meaning that years go by when they don't win one at all.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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2/23/2013 4:42:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 2:14:53 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:06:55 PM, Oryus wrote:
If most movies featuring women were not played-out, stereotypical portrayals of women in cliche, formulaic romantic comedies, I'm sure men would be happy to watch them. In fact, I'm 100% certain that men like watching women.

I would just point at as me, as a relatively stereotypical upper-middle class white male teen, I don't like it in, say, an action movie where the protagonist is female. It just isn't as cool to me. Mainly because of how in action movies, video games, whatever, RELATING to the character is important. A lot of guys watch action movies. I personally like watching woman.......but I don't like them to be my action hero, or my thriller hero. I like watching movies with female protagonists....just not action/thriller/videogames.

And, NO its not sexism, its preference. I don't even know why I prefer that all that much TBH.

...
Preferences can be sexist in nature.

As for the OP, I think the problem comes from bad scriptwriting. Many times women get badly roles, and therefore aren't able to be awarded as much as men. However, just because its a result of bad scriptwriting doesn't mean that they should get rewarded. There's no reward ceremony for mediocre movies. If women want to be rewarded they have to stop taking roles that are badly written.

However, I'm not accounting for any bias from the ceremony itself.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2013 4:44:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 4:42:18 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:14:53 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:06:55 PM, Oryus wrote:
If most movies featuring women were not played-out, stereotypical portrayals of women in cliche, formulaic romantic comedies, I'm sure men would be happy to watch them. In fact, I'm 100% certain that men like watching women.

I would just point at as me, as a relatively stereotypical upper-middle class white male teen, I don't like it in, say, an action movie where the protagonist is female. It just isn't as cool to me. Mainly because of how in action movies, video games, whatever, RELATING to the character is important. A lot of guys watch action movies. I personally like watching woman.......but I don't like them to be my action hero, or my thriller hero. I like watching movies with female protagonists....just not action/thriller/videogames.

And, NO its not sexism, its preference. I don't even know why I prefer that all that much TBH.

...
Preferences can be sexist in nature.


As for the OP, I think the problem comes from bad scriptwriting. Many times women get badly roles, and therefore aren't able to be awarded as much as men. However, just because its a result of bad scriptwriting doesn't mean that they should get rewarded. There's no reward ceremony for mediocre movies. If women want to be rewarded they have to stop taking roles that are badly written.

Right, the problem is systemic in the film industry from script-writing to casting all the way to advertising and awarding.
However, I'm not accounting for any bias from the ceremony itself.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/23/2013 4:58:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 4:27:35 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 4:24:51 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 3:17:52 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/23/2013 3:01:32 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:57:21 PM, darkkermit wrote:
speaking of which, blacks actors do get their own awards for best black actor. The BET awards:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

So BET, created specifically because of the lack of visibility of minorities in the media, gives out it's own awards. Shocker. How many people in that ceremony do you think probably wanted to be at the Oscars instead of at an event which is as prestigious as the MTV awards?

BET created it because they can do whatever they want and its socially acceptable to create these awards. There's no inherent purpose of it.

It isn't socially acceptable actually. People are always accusing BET of being "racist against whites." Meanwhile many black people accuse BET of promoting stereotypes of black people, thus being racist against black people. The only way in which BET is socially acceptable is if you acknowledge that it maintains the status quo- black people are like this, white people are like that, and black people should have their own little corner. If I were black, I would certainly be insulted. I'm insulted even now as someone who isn't black. Not only is it patronizing and unnecessary, it is marginalizing.
Asians are underrepresented in the movies, but nobody gets bent out of shape over that.

What? Yeah, they do actually. All the time.
Here's a tiny list taken from the thousands of links I could have sent you:
http://www.guardian.co.uk...
http://www.examiner.com...
http://www.imdb.com...
http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com...
http://herocomplex.latimes.com...
http://io9.com...
http://racebending.livejournal.com...

Hell, I'd like to see the data that Africans really receive less awards then whites as a proportion of their race in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com...
"Black actors have won 13 Academy Awards over the years, in fact, by 12 people (Washington has won two). But that's out of a possible 332 given out since 1929, a paltry 4 percent."
http://quickfacts.census.gov...
As of 2011, black people make up 13% of the U.S. population.

Happy?

And mind you- this is 4% out of the awards TOTAL OVER TIME- not just each individual year. Meaning that years go by when they don't win one at all.

Yes, and you used 1929 as your starting basis. Its pretty obvious that there was racism in the Us during that time period. How about in the modern era, like our the underrepresented based on a sample of this decade?
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2013 4:59:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 4:58:01 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/23/2013 4:27:35 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 4:24:51 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 3:17:52 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/23/2013 3:01:32 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 2/23/2013 2:57:21 PM, darkkermit wrote:
speaking of which, blacks actors do get their own awards for best black actor. The BET awards:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

So BET, created specifically because of the lack of visibility of minorities in the media, gives out it's own awards. Shocker. How many people in that ceremony do you think probably wanted to be at the Oscars instead of at an event which is as prestigious as the MTV awards?

BET created it because they can do whatever they want and its socially acceptable to create these awards. There's no inherent purpose of it.

It isn't socially acceptable actually. People are always accusing BET of being "racist against whites." Meanwhile many black people accuse BET of promoting stereotypes of black people, thus being racist against black people. The only way in which BET is socially acceptable is if you acknowledge that it maintains the status quo- black people are like this, white people are like that, and black people should have their own little corner. If I were black, I would certainly be insulted. I'm insulted even now as someone who isn't black. Not only is it patronizing and unnecessary, it is marginalizing.
Asians are underrepresented in the movies, but nobody gets bent out of shape over that.

What? Yeah, they do actually. All the time.
Here's a tiny list taken from the thousands of links I could have sent you:
http://www.guardian.co.uk...
http://www.examiner.com...
http://www.imdb.com...
http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com...
http://herocomplex.latimes.com...
http://io9.com...
http://racebending.livejournal.com...

Hell, I'd like to see the data that Africans really receive less awards then whites as a proportion of their race in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com...
"Black actors have won 13 Academy Awards over the years, in fact, by 12 people (Washington has won two). But that's out of a possible 332 given out since 1929, a paltry 4 percent."
http://quickfacts.census.gov...
As of 2011, black people make up 13% of the U.S. population.

Happy?

And mind you- this is 4% out of the awards TOTAL OVER TIME- not just each individual year. Meaning that years go by when they don't win one at all.

Yes, and you used 1929 as your starting basis. Its pretty obvious that there was racism in the Us during that time period. How about in the modern era, like our the underrepresented based on a sample of this decade?


WOT?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2013 5:01:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Anyway, yes. Wth, dk? Seriously? 4% out of ONE year is underrepresented. 4% out of TEN years is even more underrepresented. 4% out of almost a century is extremely underrepresented.

They are underrepresented.


At this point, your only move is to speculate on why that is.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.