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Distasteful new standard of manhood

Skepsikyma
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3/13/2013 8:23:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"A man's true greatness lies in the consciousness of an honest purpose in life, founded on a just estimate of himself and everything else, on frequent self-examination, and a steady obedience to the rule which he knows to be right."
- George Long -

Perhaps some of you have noticed the standard of manhood which I am about to reference. It bears no resemblance to the classic one so aptly described by the above quote; that standard seems to me to be withering away. Its replacement consists of two primary doctrines: craven submission to the tastes of one's peers and constant abject moral cowardice. It manifests itself in restaurant adverts which, at the last moment, hastily reassure any potential male customers that they serve steak 'for the guys'. Or beer commercials which mock the idea of a male having the audacity to drink something other than the advertised product. From food and beverages to clothes, music, and hobbies such stereotypes are laid down, perpetuated and reinforced, and American men by and large engage in a frantic rush to be associated with the hollow, vapid caricature of the ideal man which these arbitrary rules collectively construct.

In doing so they have all but destroyed what was once a noble ideal to strive towards: manhood. Notice how so many men will shrink at the very thought of acknowledging an interest in, say, ballet, cooking or gardening. Why do they do so? Cowardice, a fear of rejection by their peers for daring to leave the sphere of interests which has been set aside for them. To them, the mark of a great man is not the independent, honorable and dignified character which defined him in the past. It is ovine supplication to the will of one's peers and the vociferous denouncement of anyone who possesses the ounce of moral and intellectual courage required to chart one's own path in life. A great man, in this day and age, no longer bestrides the narrow world like a colossus. He cowers within a stalwart outer shell, trembling at the very thought of being mocked.

Personally, I am disgusted by the entire spectacle, and was wondering whether or not anyone else had noticed it. If so, what, in your opinion, has led so many American men to cripple their own minds to the point of inoperative deformity? To adopt the fear of peer opinion as a guide to both thought and action?
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Oryus
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3/13/2013 8:30:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
*applause*

I have noticed this and it also bothers me. It isn't just men, obviously. Both sexes often feel beholden to gender roles and I agree that a standard of integrity and independence of thought and action would be a better goal than simply, "I will do this because men do this."
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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3/13/2013 8:36:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 8:23:12 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
"A man's true greatness lies in the consciousness of an honest purpose in life, founded on a just estimate of himself and everything else, on frequent self-examination, and a steady obedience to the rule which he knows to be right."
- George Long -

Perhaps some of you have noticed the standard of manhood which I am about to reference. It bears no resemblance to the classic one so aptly described by the above quote; that standard seems to me to be withering away. Its replacement consists of two primary doctrines: craven submission to the tastes of one's peers and constant abject moral cowardice. It manifests itself in restaurant adverts which, at the last moment, hastily reassure any potential male customers that they serve steak 'for the guys'. Or beer commercials which mock the idea of a male having the audacity to drink something other than the advertised product. From food and beverages to clothes, music, and hobbies such stereotypes are laid down, perpetuated and reinforced, and American men by and large engage in a frantic rush to be associated with the hollow, vapid caricature of the ideal man which these arbitrary rules collectively construct.

In doing so they have all but destroyed what was once a noble ideal to strive towards: manhood. Notice how so many men will shrink at the very thought of acknowledging an interest in, say, ballet, cooking or gardening. Why do they do so? Cowardice, a fear of rejection by their peers for daring to leave the sphere of interests which has been set aside for them. To them, the mark of a great man is not the independent, honorable and dignified character which defined him in the past. It is ovine supplication to the will of one's peers and the vociferous denouncement of anyone who possesses the ounce of moral and intellectual courage required to chart one's own path in life. A great man, in this day and age, no longer bestrides the narrow world like a colossus. He cowers within a stalwart outer shell, trembling at the very thought of being mocked.

Personally, I am disgusted by the entire spectacle, and was wondering whether or not anyone else had noticed it. If so, what, in your opinion, has led so many American men to cripple their own minds to the point of inoperative deformity? To adopt the fear of peer opinion as a guide to both thought and action?

I am guilty of this myself. It always annoys me when i get disgusted by the color pink, or feel adverse to doing something just because I think the people around me will disapprove. But I can't stop it.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Skepsikyma
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3/13/2013 8:43:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 8:36:12 PM, muzebreak wrote:
I am guilty of this myself. It always annoys me when i get disgusted by the color pink, or feel adverse to doing something just because I think the people around me will disapprove. But I can't stop it.

If you need something to read, I suggest Marcus Aurelius. His works are pretty fantastic at blowing that sort of mindset out of the water. If you're looking for someone more modern, Eric Hoffer or Albert Camus would also do.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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3/13/2013 8:54:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
My only problem with your argument is that the establishment of manhood as some virtuous construct implies that womanhood must be something else.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
muzebreak
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3/13/2013 8:55:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 8:54:41 PM, 000ike wrote:
My only problem with your argument is that the establishment of manhood as some virtuous construct implies that womanhood must be something else.

How so?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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3/13/2013 9:00:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 8:54:41 PM, 000ike wrote:
My only problem with your argument is that the establishment of manhood as some virtuous construct implies that womanhood must be something else.

Most societies have different standards for this. Boudicca, Elizabeth I, Hypatia and Sappho would all disagree on what an ideal woman is, just as Nietzsche, Marcus Aurelius, Yamamoto Tsunetomo and Montezuma would all disagree on what constitutes an ideal man. One of those ideals of manhood, heavily influenced by Marcus Aurelius (the quote is about him) became elevated in western culture, and it is to this which I refer. I'll let women decide what they think it ideal, as it's not my job to worry about it.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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3/13/2013 9:02:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 8:43:59 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/13/2013 8:36:12 PM, muzebreak wrote:
I am guilty of this myself. It always annoys me when i get disgusted by the color pink, or feel adverse to doing something just because I think the people around me will disapprove. But I can't stop it.

If you need something to read, I suggest Marcus Aurelius. His works are pretty fantastic at blowing that sort of mindset out of the water. If you're looking for someone more modern, Eric Hoffer or Albert Camus would also do.

I'll look into it, thanks. Any specific works you can suggest?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
YYW
Posts: 36,287
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3/13/2013 9:05:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 8:23:12 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
"A man's true greatness lies in the consciousness of an honest purpose in life, founded on a just estimate of himself and everything else, on frequent self-examination, and a steady obedience to the rule which he knows to be right."
- George Long -

Perhaps some of you have noticed the standard of manhood which I am about to reference. It bears no resemblance to the classic one so aptly described by the above quote; that standard seems to me to be withering away. Its replacement consists of two primary doctrines: craven submission to the tastes of one's peers and constant abject moral cowardice. It manifests itself in restaurant adverts which, at the last moment, hastily reassure any potential male customers that they serve steak 'for the guys'. Or beer commercials which mock the idea of a male having the audacity to drink something other than the advertised product. From food and beverages to clothes, music, and hobbies such stereotypes are laid down, perpetuated and reinforced, and American men by and large engage in a frantic rush to be associated with the hollow, vapid caricature of the ideal man which these arbitrary rules collectively construct.

In doing so they have all but destroyed what was once a noble ideal to strive towards: manhood. Notice how so many men will shrink at the very thought of acknowledging an interest in, say, ballet, cooking or gardening. Why do they do so? Cowardice, a fear of rejection by their peers for daring to leave the sphere of interests which has been set aside for them. To them, the mark of a great man is not the independent, honorable and dignified character which defined him in the past. It is ovine supplication to the will of one's peers and the vociferous denouncement of anyone who possesses the ounce of moral and intellectual courage required to chart one's own path in life. A great man, in this day and age, no longer bestrides the narrow world like a colossus. He cowers within a stalwart outer shell, trembling at the very thought of being mocked.

Personally, I am disgusted by the entire spectacle, and was wondering whether or not anyone else had noticed it. If so, what, in your opinion, has led so many American men to cripple their own minds to the point of inoperative deformity? To adopt the fear of peer opinion as a guide to both thought and action?

As people who are social beings, we seek the approval of those around us instinctively. It takes a degree of self confidence that I have almost never seen in anyone to be able to stand against the tides of social conformity in opposition. The problem is when norms define individuals, rather than when individuals define norms.

But regarding manhood, the decline in the west is a cultural phenomenon that I think began with second wave feminism. I'm sure this is a contentious hypothesis, but when masculinity became a subject of sociocultural mockery (really set in by the 1990s), manhood itself suffered. I think about the Homer Simpson archetype, or the Tim "The Tool Guy" Taylor, or the worst offender... Seth McFarline's "Peter Griffin." Men don't have to be belittled for women's social status to be advanced, but that's been the effect.

I had a professor of sociology who railed against the "prolonged adolescence of modern manhood," where behaving like a teenager was not only the ideal, but the standard against which contemporary men measured their lives. She argued that the pursuit of temporary pleasure (beer, sex, sexual humor, oh, and more sex) were distractions from enduring accomplishment. Perhaps she's right... I thought she was nothing less than a Jesuit in a pant-suit (I was also 17 at the time).
Tsar of DDO
Oryus
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3/13/2013 9:21:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:00:53 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/13/2013 8:54:41 PM, 000ike wrote:
My only problem with your argument is that the establishment of manhood as some virtuous construct implies that womanhood must be something else.

Most societies have different standards for this. Boudicca, Elizabeth I, Hypatia and Sappho would all disagree on what an ideal woman is, just as Nietzsche, Marcus Aurelius, Yamamoto Tsunetomo and Montezuma would all disagree on what constitutes an ideal man. One of those ideals of manhood, heavily influenced by Marcus Aurelius (the quote is about him) became elevated in western culture, and it is to this which I refer. I'll let women decide what they think it ideal, as it's not my job to worry about it.

I have a hard time believing that any one sex should be assigned ideal personality traits that they ought to live up to- no matter how good they seem to be. What is good and virtuous is undoubtedly relative culturally speaking and each culture often has an ideal for each sex because, it seems, most cultures operate with the idea that men and women should live up to different ideals in the first place.

I think that adults should try and be good people. I know what I attempt to be and I feel bad for people that try hard to fit into a box, "good woman" or "good man," when they could simply try and be a good person and leave it at that.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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3/13/2013 9:21:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:05:57 PM, YYW wrote:
But regarding manhood, the decline in the west is a cultural phenomenon that I think began with second wave feminism. I'm sure this is a contentious hypothesis, but when masculinity became a subject of sociocultural mockery (really set in by the 1990s), manhood itself suffered. I think about the Homer Simpson archetype, or the Tim "The Tool Guy" Taylor, or the worst offender... Seth McFarline's "Peter Griffin." Men don't have to be belittled for women's social status to be advanced, but that's been the effect.

I had a professor of sociology who railed against the "prolonged adolescence of modern manhood," where behaving like a teenager was not only the ideal, but the standard against which contemporary men measured their lives. She argued that the pursuit of temporary pleasure (beer, sex, sexual humor, oh, and more sex) were distractions from enduring accomplishment. Perhaps she's right... I thought she was nothing less than a Jesuit in a pant-suit (I was also 17 at the time).

Hmm, this reminded me of another quote I like on the subject:

"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor. Because there is very little honor left in American life, there is a certain built-in tendency to destroy masculinity in American men."
- Norman Mailer -

I certainly agree with your teacher. My one coworker plays a radio talk show which consists of two men talking for hours about strippers, beer, hunting, and fart jokes. They're so self-satisfied about it. If I am every sent to hell, I will be forced to listen to those two men talk for all eternity.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
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3/13/2013 9:24:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:21:23 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:00:53 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/13/2013 8:54:41 PM, 000ike wrote:
My only problem with your argument is that the establishment of manhood as some virtuous construct implies that womanhood must be something else.

Most societies have different standards for this. Boudicca, Elizabeth I, Hypatia and Sappho would all disagree on what an ideal woman is, just as Nietzsche, Marcus Aurelius, Yamamoto Tsunetomo and Montezuma would all disagree on what constitutes an ideal man. One of those ideals of manhood, heavily influenced by Marcus Aurelius (the quote is about him) became elevated in western culture, and it is to this which I refer. I'll let women decide what they think it ideal, as it's not my job to worry about it.

I have a hard time believing that any one sex should be assigned ideal personality traits that they ought to live up to- no matter how good they seem to be. What is good and virtuous is undoubtedly relative culturally speaking and each culture often has an ideal for each sex because, it seems, most cultures operate with the idea that men and women should live up to different ideals in the first place.

I think that adults should try and be good people. I know what I attempt to be and I feel bad for people that try hard to fit into a box, "good woman" or "good man," when they could simply try and be a good person and leave it at that.

Ideally, I would agree. The problem is that the gender divide is deeply ingrained at the societal level, and I doubt that this will change anytime soon.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
OMGJustinBieber
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3/13/2013 9:26:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:07:12 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Resisting to express one's emotions to purport strength is an utter contradiction.

I completely disagree, there are times when suppressing one's emotions is what is ultimately needed of us.

------

To the OP: I don't believe any quote can ever adequately capture manhood, but I'm on relatively the same page as you in rejecting moral cowardice and conformity. There still has to be much more that's flushed out though. I would reject a complete renunciation of gender roles as fitting for the ideal man. I would support independence, but only to an extent.
Oryus
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3/13/2013 9:29:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:24:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:21:23 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:00:53 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/13/2013 8:54:41 PM, 000ike wrote:
My only problem with your argument is that the establishment of manhood as some virtuous construct implies that womanhood must be something else.

Most societies have different standards for this. Boudicca, Elizabeth I, Hypatia and Sappho would all disagree on what an ideal woman is, just as Nietzsche, Marcus Aurelius, Yamamoto Tsunetomo and Montezuma would all disagree on what constitutes an ideal man. One of those ideals of manhood, heavily influenced by Marcus Aurelius (the quote is about him) became elevated in western culture, and it is to this which I refer. I'll let women decide what they think it ideal, as it's not my job to worry about it.

I have a hard time believing that any one sex should be assigned ideal personality traits that they ought to live up to- no matter how good they seem to be. What is good and virtuous is undoubtedly relative culturally speaking and each culture often has an ideal for each sex because, it seems, most cultures operate with the idea that men and women should live up to different ideals in the first place.

I think that adults should try and be good people. I know what I attempt to be and I feel bad for people that try hard to fit into a box, "good woman" or "good man," when they could simply try and be a good person and leave it at that.

Ideally, I would agree. The problem is that the gender divide is deeply ingrained at the societal level, and I doubt that this will change anytime soon.

It's not so ingrained as it used to be. It's slowly wearing away. Social change is slow. Anyway, my central point is we need not base our personal goals for ourselves on societal ideals- gender-related or otherwise. Building a new and better framework for gender ideals is useless when we should be disregarding the paradigm altogether, as is slowly happening anyway.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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3/13/2013 9:29:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:26:27 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:07:12 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Resisting to express one's emotions to purport strength is an utter contradiction.

I completely disagree, there are times when suppressing one's emotions is what is ultimately needed of us.

------

To the OP: I don't believe any quote can ever adequately capture manhood, but I'm on relatively the same page as you in rejecting moral cowardice and conformity. There still has to be much more that's flushed out though. I would reject a complete renunciation of gender roles as fitting for the ideal man. I would support independence, but only to an extent.

Like when?
OMGJustinBieber
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3/13/2013 9:31:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I certainly agree with your teacher. My one coworker plays a radio talk show which consists of two men talking for hours about strippers, beer, hunting, and fart jokes. They're so self-satisfied about it. If I am every sent to hell, I will be forced to listen to those two men talk for all eternity.

I often interpret behaviors like this as a reflection of nihilism even if it's not consciously experienced by those involved. I obviously don't know where you live or what your experiences have been, but in mine there's just a general absence of strong or meaningful values so a lot of my friends have filled the void with Tucker Max or The Hangover.
OMGJustinBieber
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3/13/2013 9:32:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:29:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:26:27 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:07:12 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Resisting to express one's emotions to purport strength is an utter contradiction.

I completely disagree, there are times when suppressing one's emotions is what is ultimately needed of us.

------

To the OP: I don't believe any quote can ever adequately capture manhood, but I'm on relatively the same page as you in rejecting moral cowardice and conformity. There still has to be much more that's flushed out though. I would reject a complete renunciation of gender roles as fitting for the ideal man. I would support independence, but only to an extent.


Like when?

Warfare. If the war is necessary and just there is no room for the expession of whatever natural, human sympathies you have for the enemy.
Oryus
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3/13/2013 9:32:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:31:24 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I certainly agree with your teacher. My one coworker plays a radio talk show which consists of two men talking for hours about strippers, beer, hunting, and fart jokes. They're so self-satisfied about it. If I am every sent to hell, I will be forced to listen to those two men talk for all eternity.

I often interpret behaviors like this as a reflection of nihilism even if it's not consciously experienced by those involved. I obviously don't know where you live or what your experiences have been, but in mine there's just a general absence of strong or meaningful values so a lot of my friends have filled the void with Tucker Max or The Hangover.

My god, you poor thing....
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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3/13/2013 9:33:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:31:24 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I certainly agree with your teacher. My one coworker plays a radio talk show which consists of two men talking for hours about strippers, beer, hunting, and fart jokes. They're so self-satisfied about it. If I am every sent to hell, I will be forced to listen to those two men talk for all eternity.

I often interpret behaviors like this as a reflection of nihilism even if it's not consciously experienced by those involved. I obviously don't know where you live or what your experiences have been, but in mine there's just a general absence of strong or meaningful values so a lot of my friends have filled the void with Tucker Max or The Hangover.

The behavior of the coworker or skep?
dylancatlow
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3/13/2013 9:34:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:32:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:29:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:26:27 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:07:12 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Resisting to express one's emotions to purport strength is an utter contradiction.

I completely disagree, there are times when suppressing one's emotions is what is ultimately needed of us.

------

To the OP: I don't believe any quote can ever adequately capture manhood, but I'm on relatively the same page as you in rejecting moral cowardice and conformity. There still has to be much more that's flushed out though. I would reject a complete renunciation of gender roles as fitting for the ideal man. I would support independence, but only to an extent.


Like when?

Warfare. If the war is necessary and just there is no room for the expession of whatever natural, human sympathies you have for the enemy.

I said express, not act upon. Acting upon one's emotions is equally boneheaded.
Skepsikyma
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3/13/2013 9:34:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:02:40 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 3/13/2013 8:43:59 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/13/2013 8:36:12 PM, muzebreak wrote:
I am guilty of this myself. It always annoys me when i get disgusted by the color pink, or feel adverse to doing something just because I think the people around me will disapprove. But I can't stop it.

If you need something to read, I suggest Marcus Aurelius. His works are pretty fantastic at blowing that sort of mindset out of the water. If you're looking for someone more modern, Eric Hoffer or Albert Camus would also do.

I'll look into it, thanks. Any specific works you can suggest?

Eric Hoffer's Reflections on the Human Condition (Easy reading, despite the daunting title)

Albert Camus's The Stranger (A philosophical novel)

Marcus Aurelius's Meditations (Very dense)
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Oryus
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3/13/2013 9:34:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:32:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:29:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:26:27 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:07:12 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Resisting to express one's emotions to purport strength is an utter contradiction.

I completely disagree, there are times when suppressing one's emotions is what is ultimately needed of us.

------

To the OP: I don't believe any quote can ever adequately capture manhood, but I'm on relatively the same page as you in rejecting moral cowardice and conformity. There still has to be much more that's flushed out though. I would reject a complete renunciation of gender roles as fitting for the ideal man. I would support independence, but only to an extent.


Like when?

Warfare. If the war is necessary and just there is no room for the expession of whatever natural, human sympathies you have for the enemy.

Parenthood. Sometimes terrible things happen and parents must "be strong" for their children.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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3/13/2013 9:36:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:34:41 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:32:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:29:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:26:27 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:07:12 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Resisting to express one's emotions to purport strength is an utter contradiction.

I completely disagree, there are times when suppressing one's emotions is what is ultimately needed of us.

------

To the OP: I don't believe any quote can ever adequately capture manhood, but I'm on relatively the same page as you in rejecting moral cowardice and conformity. There still has to be much more that's flushed out though. I would reject a complete renunciation of gender roles as fitting for the ideal man. I would support independence, but only to an extent.


Like when?

Warfare. If the war is necessary and just there is no room for the expession of whatever natural, human sympathies you have for the enemy.

Parenthood. Sometimes terrible things happen and parents must "be strong" for their children.

I meant it's false to purport strength by suppressing for the sake of suppressing to appease others.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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3/13/2013 9:37:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:34:16 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:32:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:29:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:26:27 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:07:12 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Resisting to express one's emotions to purport strength is an utter contradiction.

I completely disagree, there are times when suppressing one's emotions is what is ultimately needed of us.

------

To the OP: I don't believe any quote can ever adequately capture manhood, but I'm on relatively the same page as you in rejecting moral cowardice and conformity. There still has to be much more that's flushed out though. I would reject a complete renunciation of gender roles as fitting for the ideal man. I would support independence, but only to an extent.


Like when?

Warfare. If the war is necessary and just there is no room for the expession of whatever natural, human sympathies you have for the enemy.

I said express, not act upon. Acting upon one's emotions is equally boneheaded.

You are not to express them either. Imagine you're a general in this war about to make a speech to motivate soldiers in an important battle; there is a time and place for emotions. Certain emotions at the wrong time can undermine morale and the cohesion of a unit pursuing an important goal.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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3/13/2013 9:38:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:36:57 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:34:41 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:32:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:29:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:26:27 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:07:12 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Resisting to express one's emotions to purport strength is an utter contradiction.

I completely disagree, there are times when suppressing one's emotions is what is ultimately needed of us.

------

To the OP: I don't believe any quote can ever adequately capture manhood, but I'm on relatively the same page as you in rejecting moral cowardice and conformity. There still has to be much more that's flushed out though. I would reject a complete renunciation of gender roles as fitting for the ideal man. I would support independence, but only to an extent.


Like when?

Warfare. If the war is necessary and just there is no room for the expession of whatever natural, human sympathies you have for the enemy.

Parenthood. Sometimes terrible things happen and parents must "be strong" for their children.

I meant it's false to purport strength by suppressing for the sake of suppressing to appease others.

Yes, doing it for it's own sake, and especially for the sake of some nebulous concept of "manhood," is ridiculous. But sometimes it is indeed necessary and arguably the right thing to do. That's all.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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3/13/2013 9:39:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:37:40 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:34:16 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:32:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:29:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:26:27 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:07:12 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Resisting to express one's emotions to purport strength is an utter contradiction.

I completely disagree, there are times when suppressing one's emotions is what is ultimately needed of us.

------

To the OP: I don't believe any quote can ever adequately capture manhood, but I'm on relatively the same page as you in rejecting moral cowardice and conformity. There still has to be much more that's flushed out though. I would reject a complete renunciation of gender roles as fitting for the ideal man. I would support independence, but only to an extent.


Like when?

Warfare. If the war is necessary and just there is no room for the expession of whatever natural, human sympathies you have for the enemy.

I said express, not act upon. Acting upon one's emotions is equally boneheaded.

You are not to express them either. Imagine you're a general in this war about to make a speech to motivate soldiers in an important battle; there is a time and place for emotions. Certain emotions at the wrong time can undermine morale and the cohesion of a unit pursuing an important goal.

Changing one's affect to reflect emotions would be acting upon emotions in that instance. You are missing the bigger picture.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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3/13/2013 9:40:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:38:19 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:36:57 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:34:41 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:32:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:29:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:26:27 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/13/2013 9:07:12 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Resisting to express one's emotions to purport strength is an utter contradiction.

I completely disagree, there are times when suppressing one's emotions is what is ultimately needed of us.

------

To the OP: I don't believe any quote can ever adequately capture manhood, but I'm on relatively the same page as you in rejecting moral cowardice and conformity. There still has to be much more that's flushed out though. I would reject a complete renunciation of gender roles as fitting for the ideal man. I would support independence, but only to an extent.


Like when?

Warfare. If the war is necessary and just there is no room for the expession of whatever natural, human sympathies you have for the enemy.

Parenthood. Sometimes terrible things happen and parents must "be strong" for their children.

I meant it's false to purport strength by suppressing for the sake of suppressing to appease others.

Yes, doing it for it's own sake, and especially for the sake of some nebulous concept of "manhood," is ridiculous. But sometimes it is indeed necessary and arguably the right thing to do. That's all.

It seems like we're on the same page.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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3/13/2013 9:40:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 9:31:24 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I certainly agree with your teacher. My one coworker plays a radio talk show which consists of two men talking for hours about strippers, beer, hunting, and fart jokes. They're so self-satisfied about it. If I am every sent to hell, I will be forced to listen to those two men talk for all eternity.

I often interpret behaviors like this as a reflection of nihilism even if it's not consciously experienced by those involved. I obviously don't know where you live or what your experiences have been, but in mine there's just a general absence of strong or meaningful values so a lot of my friends have filled the void with Tucker Max or The Hangover.

My area boasts a rich artistic, cultural, and intellectual history. The people, however, are another story. Our museums are filled with the elderly while the Hangover sells out in theaters.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -