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Reverse-Sexism at Gyms

tmar19652
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4/20/2013 7:50:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://jezebel.com...

I'm with Mr.Lloyd on this one. Opinions anyone?
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royalpaladin
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4/22/2013 6:12:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm surprised that the free market advocates haven't come to support this gym's policy in full force. After all, businesses should be able to discriminate, right?

There is merit to both sides of the argument. On one hand, I agree that the men should not have to pay the same amount as the women if they are not getting an equal amount of hours. However, I think that the concern with leering overrides this, especially since a lot of women won't go to the gym if they eliminate those special hours, meaning that the gym loses business. I think the best solution is to have "men only" hours or to have separate rooms set aside for people who are not comfortable working out in front of the opposite sex.
royalpaladin
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4/22/2013 6:23:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Oh, and I don't go to gyms, but I would wager that unreported sexual harassment is fairly common there. The function of these hours is to provide women with a safe opportunity to work out. There's nothing wrong with having this intention; the author of the lawsuit goes too far in his criticism from that standpoint.
suttichart.denpruektham
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4/22/2013 8:44:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 7:59:49 PM, Wnope wrote:
Regardless of merits, t's a pathetic media stunt by a wannabe controversial writer.

Exactly what I thinking.

I found the lawsuit unconvincing though, if it trouble you that mush: stop go to gym. It's not that you can't exercise without it and there should be some gym else that doesn't offer such a regulation.
muzebreak
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4/22/2013 9:30:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
It is a bit ridiculous, what he's doing. But I think it's more his reasoning that is ridiculous. I don't agree with showing such favoritism to anyone, and the whole thing ignores the fact that men feel embarrassed about their bodies as well. I know some guys who wont go swimming without a shirt on.

But that's why there are gyms exclusively for women. But if you are going to allow men to join your gym, you shouldn't be allowed to reduce the quantity of their product, without also reducing the price.
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muzebreak
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4/22/2013 9:32:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Oh, and can someone explain this "Nice to know that someone who considers himself so subversive on the subject of gender relations still has a healthy embrace of gay stereotypes!" for me. What stereotype was he 'healthily embracing'?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Oryus
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4/22/2013 11:20:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/22/2013 9:32:32 AM, muzebreak wrote:
Oh, and can someone explain this "Nice to know that someone who considers himself so subversive on the subject of gender relations still has a healthy embrace of gay stereotypes!" for me. What stereotype was he 'healthily embracing'?

Referring to this comment of his: "It also assumes that all men in the gym are straight, when many of them are gay and have no interest in the female aesthetic. In fact, if they really wanted to, these men could be voyeuristic in the showers."

I think the author is cautioning against the stereotype that all gay men are voyeuristic perverts or something (a driving stereotype behind the DADT crowd). It's a bit funny, this point. A homophobic man would have to accept this desire for women-only time at the gym as a legit concern because they are probably made extremely uncomfortable by men leering at them as well.

lol as a side note, I love that he uses "Sex and the City" as an example of women being just as capable of being "forthright" as men. That show is by far more often written, directed, and produced by men. That was a hilariously terrible argument for his side of things.
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OberHerr
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4/22/2013 11:56:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I thought both the author and the guy the author was ranting about ranting were stupid.
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Oryus
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4/23/2013 12:03:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/22/2013 11:56:48 PM, OberHerr wrote:
I thought both the author and the guy the author was ranting about ranting were stupid.

Agreed.

I suppose this guy is going to start writing his local legislators because of ladies nights at the local bars too.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
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OberHerr
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4/23/2013 12:07:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 12:03:30 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/22/2013 11:56:48 PM, OberHerr wrote:
I thought both the author and the guy the author was ranting about ranting were stupid.

Agreed.

I suppose this guy is going to start writing his local legislators because of ladies nights at the local bars too.

The worst part is I kinda get his point, on people can sometimes be hypocritical, but he just goes about it the wrong way.
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darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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4/23/2013 12:09:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 12:07:17 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/23/2013 12:03:30 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/22/2013 11:56:48 PM, OberHerr wrote:
I thought both the author and the guy the author was ranting about ranting were stupid.

Agreed.

I suppose this guy is going to start writing his local legislators because of ladies nights at the local bars too.

The worst part is I kinda get his point, on people can sometimes be hypocritical, but he just goes about it the wrong way.

Yes, I kind of agree with his views as well on reverse-sexism, but I'm also in favor of businesses discriminating as well.
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johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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4/23/2013 12:11:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/22/2013 6:12:27 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
I'm surprised that the free market advocates haven't come to support this gym's policy in full force. After all, businesses should be able to discriminate, right?

My bad. I just saw this topic. I'm ready now.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Oryus
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4/23/2013 12:17:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 12:09:20 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 4/23/2013 12:07:17 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/23/2013 12:03:30 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/22/2013 11:56:48 PM, OberHerr wrote:
I thought both the author and the guy the author was ranting about ranting were stupid.

Agreed.

I suppose this guy is going to start writing his local legislators because of ladies nights at the local bars too.

The worst part is I kinda get his point, on people can sometimes be hypocritical, but he just goes about it the wrong way.

Yes, I kind of agree with his views as well on reverse-sexism, but I'm also in favor of businesses discriminating as well.

I don't even think "reverse-sexism" is an apt term. It's not merely about keeping men out because women are self-conscious or something. It's about men commenting on women's bodies and touching women's bodies and generally making women feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in gyms. It's about giving women a safe space so they can work out without having to worry about sexism.... If men weren't sexist in those environments, the gyms wouldn't even have women-only days and women-only gyms wouldn't even need to exist.

Anyway, the women-only days are just a band-aid for a wider problem but a private company is allowed to do it nonetheless. The ranting dude's arguments are terrible regardless.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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4/23/2013 12:25:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 12:17:24 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/23/2013 12:09:20 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 4/23/2013 12:07:17 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/23/2013 12:03:30 AM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/22/2013 11:56:48 PM, OberHerr wrote:
I thought both the author and the guy the author was ranting about ranting were stupid.

Agreed.

I suppose this guy is going to start writing his local legislators because of ladies nights at the local bars too.

The worst part is I kinda get his point, on people can sometimes be hypocritical, but he just goes about it the wrong way.

Yes, I kind of agree with his views as well on reverse-sexism, but I'm also in favor of businesses discriminating as well.

I don't even think "reverse-sexism" is an apt term. It's not merely about keeping men out because women are self-conscious or something. It's about men commenting on women's bodies and touching women's bodies and generally making women feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in gyms. It's about giving women a safe space so they can work out without having to worry about sexism.... If men weren't sexist in those environments, the gyms wouldn't even have women-only days and women-only gyms wouldn't even need to exist.

Anyway, the women-only days are just a band-aid for a wider problem but a private company is allowed to do it nonetheless. The ranting dude's arguments are terrible regardless.

Didn't read the dude's stuff.

Like I said, I have no problem w/ businesses discriminating based on race or gender. Boy scouts are a prime example of a male-oreintated organization, although I'm against many of its tax breaks the local and federal government give it, as well as other perks. There are male gyms around, although they're more rare.
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darkkermit
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4/23/2013 12:30:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'd also question what percentage of women choose to join a gym because of men being perverts to them or because of other factors. I think its fair to assume that there are many that decide to join a women's gym for other reasons besides it being the "men's fault".
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R0b1Billion
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4/23/2013 7:34:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Reverse-Sexism" implies that sexism is not being applied in the first place.
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lidia.watzktyshoov
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4/23/2013 11:33:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
When I was younger, I used to go to the gyms to meet hunky men. I would try to impress them by benching them; that level of intimacy always seemed to work, but now I get charged with sexual harassment. It all started one time when dropped somebody in a pool of my own sweat. It turned out he couldn't swim, so he had to drink his way out to survive. Nowadays, the only attention I get from people is asking if I need a difribulator. If only they really understood my complicated life.
bladerunner060
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4/23/2013 3:38:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It is hypocritical to support this, but not sexism against women.

The problem is discrimination. Assuming there is "unreported" harassment is just that: an assumption. I've been to several gyms where I have seen exactly zero harassment. Does that mean it doesn't happen? No, of course not. If it is happening, it needs to be fixed. But the "fix" isn't to blanket punish all men.

To provide something extra to women solely on the basis of their gender is sexism. It's not "reverse-sexism". That term is, itself, sexist.

And frankly, ladies nights are just as offensive.

On the list of problems, both of these rank way down. There are much bigger fish to fry. That doesn't, however, mean it's therefore justified. It's hypocritical to deny that these types of things are sexisms; support this, and you undercut any attack on sexism elsewhere.
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Thaddeus
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4/23/2013 3:57:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Gym can do what it wants. Private property. They can start a whites only hour if they really want. Honey badger don't care.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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4/23/2013 6:41:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Someone left this reply on the comments portion of the article.

"Question, though: couldn't Mr. Lloyd just go to another gym? If he's inconvenienced by ladies' day in the gym, the gym loses his business. Simple as that."

It may be a stupid business decision on the part of the gym, it may be Mr. Lloyd has a valid argument, or no argument at all. It really doesn't matter. What is glaringly apparent is that he has the choice to protest and leave that gym, and that gym has the right to make up whatever rule it wants concerning women, so long as it is resides in the confines of the law.
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royalpaladin
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4/23/2013 10:11:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 3:38:26 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

And frankly, ladies nights are just as offensive.


I agree. The whole point of "ladies' night" is to make it easier for men to rape women by intoxicating them.
ConservativePolitico
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4/24/2013 12:40:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
There's no such thing as "reverse-sexism" nor is there any such thing as "reverse-racism" or reverse anything.

It's just sexism. It's sexism in the way people don't usually expect.

That is all.
OberHerr
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4/24/2013 6:11:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 10:11:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/23/2013 3:38:26 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

And frankly, ladies nights are just as offensive.


I agree. The whole point of "ladies' night" is to make it easier for men to rape women by intoxicating them.

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muzebreak
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4/24/2013 6:36:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 10:11:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/23/2013 3:38:26 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

And frankly, ladies nights are just as offensive.


I agree. The whole point of "ladies' night" is to make it easier for men to rape women by intoxicating them.

That's a little harsh. And completely untrue. The point of ladies night, is to draw more people in general to the club.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
johnnyboy54
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4/24/2013 6:37:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 10:11:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/23/2013 3:38:26 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

And frankly, ladies nights are just as offensive.


I agree. The whole point of "ladies' night" is to make it easier for men to rape women by intoxicating them.

Yep. We're all just a bunch of sexual predators.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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4/24/2013 12:31:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 10:11:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/23/2013 3:38:26 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

And frankly, ladies nights are just as offensive.


I agree. The whole point of "ladies' night" is to make it easier for men to rape women by intoxicating them.

While I appreciate the agreement, I forget sometimes that you come across as quite the misandrist. You are, for the record, flatly and demonstrably wrong, as far as I'm able to tell.

The "whole point" of ladies' night is an attempt to get more women to come out; at this point it's almost "expected", and so clubs that don't do it are likely to miss an entire demographic of women who have come to expect it. Due to the fracked up sexual power dynamics of our society, having a larger share of female customer base means having a larger share of male customer base, as well, while the opposite is not consistently true.

I say demonstrably, because there are economic reasons for ladies night, and there are known statements about ladies' night that indicate the "whole point" is to get more women to come to the club and spend money (and more men as well), period fullstop.

I've heard the statement before; there are some who believe that that's the "real point" of it, but I've never seen any evidence to back it up, and it seems so morally repugnant, and so divorced from any profit motive that would give it plausibility, that I find it hard to believe.

Does that mean that perhaps more rapes occur thanks to the alcohol? Possibly, such is the nature of alcohol, and it's an unfortunate fact that alcohol encourages poor choices, and in sufficient quantities allows people to be completely taken advantage of. However, to assert that that's "the point" is quite a leap.

To think that businesses across the country are purposefully engineering rape seems to me to be crazy, sexist conspiracy talk.

However, if you have some evidence to back that up as the plan of the businesses in question, please show it. Until then it seems you're just trolling.
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/25/2013 5:40:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:31:00 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 4/23/2013 10:11:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/23/2013 3:38:26 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

And frankly, ladies nights are just as offensive.


I agree. The whole point of "ladies' night" is to make it easier for men to rape women by intoxicating them.

While I appreciate the agreement, I forget sometimes that you come across as quite the misandrist. You are, for the record, flatly and demonstrably wrong, as far as I'm able to tell.

The "whole point" of ladies' night is an attempt to get more women to come out; at this point it's almost "expected", and so clubs that don't do it are likely to miss an entire demographic of women who have come to expect it. Due to the fracked up sexual power dynamics of our society, having a larger share of female customer base means having a larger share of male customer base, as well, while the opposite is not consistently true.

I say demonstrably, because there are economic reasons for ladies night, and there are known statements about ladies' night that indicate the "whole point" is to get more women to come to the club and spend money (and more men as well), period fullstop.

I've heard the statement before; there are some who believe that that's the "real point" of it, but I've never seen any evidence to back it up, and it seems so morally repugnant, and so divorced from any profit motive that would give it plausibility, that I find it hard to believe.

Does that mean that perhaps more rapes occur thanks to the alcohol? Possibly, such is the nature of alcohol, and it's an unfortunate fact that alcohol encourages poor choices, and in sufficient quantities allows people to be completely taken advantage of. However, to assert that that's "the point" is quite a leap.

To think that businesses across the country are purposefully engineering rape seems to me to be crazy, sexist conspiracy talk.

However, if you have some evidence to back that up as the plan of the businesses in question, please show it. Until then it seems you're just trolling.

The point is to attract more women to bars as a means of attracting more men to bars. It's very obvious why this is being done. I never said it was a conspiracy; the businesses really don't care what happens to their customers as long as they make a profit.
royalpaladin
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4/25/2013 5:41:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 6:37:34 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 4/23/2013 10:11:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/23/2013 3:38:26 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

And frankly, ladies nights are just as offensive.


I agree. The whole point of "ladies' night" is to make it easier for men to rape women by intoxicating them.

Yep. We're all just a bunch of sexual predators.

I don't know why you guys always attack strawdoll versions of my position. I never said that all men are sexual predators.
johnnyboy54
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4/25/2013 5:46:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/25/2013 5:41:16 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/24/2013 6:37:34 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 4/23/2013 10:11:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/23/2013 3:38:26 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:

And frankly, ladies nights are just as offensive.


I agree. The whole point of "ladies' night" is to make it easier for men to rape women by intoxicating them.

Yep. We're all just a bunch of sexual predators.

I don't know why you guys always attack strawdoll versions of my position. I never said that all men are sexual predators.

I was trying to be humorous, not present an argument.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.