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The burial of Tsarnaev

Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,585
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5/6/2013 1:11:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I read today that the uncle of the deceased bomber is beginning to show his true colors by insisting the body be buried. He is insisting that Islamic tradition be respected - very typical of Islam - inflexible.

How about he and the rest of the family show some respect for the feelings and traditions of non-Muslims in their own country?

Dump the corpse at sea of burn it - so what if a few fanatics get upset - Muslims always stamp their feet when they can't have their own way.

Harry.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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5/6/2013 11:38:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/6/2013 1:11:22 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
I read today that the uncle of the deceased bomber is beginning to show his true colors by insisting the body be buried. He is insisting that Islamic tradition be respected - very typical of Islam - inflexible.

How about he and the rest of the family show some respect for the feelings and traditions of non-Muslims in their own country?

Dump the corpse at sea of burn it - so what if a few fanatics get upset - Muslims always stamp their feet when they can't have their own way.

Harry.

Preface: I'm really drunk, so it may be unwise, perhaps, to take everything I say at face value.

You're being a bit of a dick. If you look at what happened to the bomber from a strictly subjective point of view, it's important to remind ourselves that everyone tells themselves a story about their life. In very few of these narratives, if any at all, are the protagonists also villains. Insofar as this is true, it's incredibly dense to demonize Muslims as if they're some kind of incomprehensible enemy, which is precisely what you're doing, not only by generalizing about them, but by stigmatizing them.

There are many explanations on "our" side as to why these kinds of attacks--from 9/11 to Boston to the attempted underwear bombings--occur. Unfortunately, "They hate our freedom/way of life/nationality" is an inadequate explanation, unless we assume that our enemies are uniformly mentally handicapped, which is irresponsible from any epistemic angle other than patriotism, which is definitionally biased insofar as its perspective is narrowed to whatever is perceived to be beneficial to its respective home territory.

Though the concern for burial and last rites is certainly arbitrary, whether Muslim, Christian, or a consequence of secular culture, it's not merely naive, but outright prejudiced to assume that a) Muslims, by requesting the body be buried, are showing "disrespect" to American culture; b) whatever the family requests must be "typical" of Muslims, something I find peculiar given not only the prevalence of burial in Christian and secular American culture, but also your bizarre insistence that the body just be thrown into the sea or burned (and the implicit complaint, especially ironic given your insistence that Muslims get upset when they don't get their way [which is entirely stereotypical and conjectural] when you're obviously emotionally committed to your policy recommendation); c) you associate reactionary tendencies with personality traits. You may benefit from familiarizing yourself with correspondence bias, a cognitive obstacle according to which circumstantially-contingent behaviors are regarded as innate personality traits, rather than as dependent on external stimuli.

tl;dr Fuck off and stop being biased against foreign forms of life, assface.
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,585
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5/7/2013 7:52:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/6/2013 11:38:48 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 5/6/2013 1:11:22 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
I read today that the uncle of the deceased bomber is beginning to show his true colors by insisting the body be buried. He is insisting that Islamic tradition be respected - very typical of Islam - inflexible.

How about he and the rest of the family show some respect for the feelings and traditions of non-Muslims in their own country?

Dump the corpse at sea of burn it - so what if a few fanatics get upset - Muslims always stamp their feet when they can't have their own way.

Harry.

Preface: I'm really drunk, so it may be unwise, perhaps, to take everything I say at face value.

You're being a bit of a dick. If you look at what happened to the bomber from a strictly subjective point of view, it's important to remind ourselves that everyone tells themselves a story about their life. In very few of these narratives, if any at all, are the protagonists also villains. Insofar as this is true, it's incredibly dense to demonize Muslims as if they're some kind of incomprehensible enemy, which is precisely what you're doing, not only by generalizing about them, but by stigmatizing them.

I am not demonizing Muslims, please quote the sentence that you are interpreting in that manner. I did characterize Muslims which I think is fair because all Muslims are - well - Muslims and the ideology does have recognizable characteristics as you'd know if you'd ever lived in a densely populated Muslim area.

There are many explanations on "our" side as to why these kinds of attacks--from 9/11 to Boston to the attempted underwear bombings--occur. Unfortunately, "They hate our freedom/way of life/nationality" is an inadequate explanation, unless we assume that our enemies are uniformly mentally handicapped, which is irresponsible from any epistemic angle other than patriotism, which is definitionally biased insofar as its perspective is narrowed to whatever is perceived to be beneficial to its respective home territory.

I never discussed any aspect of the attack or the motivations of the attackers, I only expressed my view about how the corpse should be disposed of if no burial site is forthcoming.

Though the concern for burial and last rites is certainly arbitrary, whether Muslim, Christian, or a consequence of secular culture, it's not merely naive, but outright prejudiced to assume that a) Muslims, by requesting the body be buried, are showing "disrespect" to American culture;

May I interrupt your diatribe here? Good; yes I am indeed prejudiced against Islam in my country, and this is an entirely rational position to take, I mean would you speak to me this way if I had expressed a similar sentiment about Nazism for example?

b) whatever the family requests must be "typical" of Muslims, something I find peculiar given not only the prevalence of burial in Christian and secular American culture, but also your bizarre insistence that the body just be thrown into the sea or burned (and the implicit complaint, especially ironic given your insistence that Muslims get upset when they don't get their way [which is entirely stereotypical and conjectural] when you're obviously emotionally committed to your policy recommendation);

It is the Islamic ideology that is the problem here. There is nothing special at all about burial. If nobody is willing to bury the remains then the corpse should be burned to dispose of it, this is entirely rational.

For someone to insist (on ideological grounds) that people in MA should respect the wishes of the family (which are nothing more than an aspect of their own indoctrination) is frankly an outrage - I do not and will not respect Islam and anyone who tells me I must respect an ideology that is inherently sexist, patriarchal, intolerant, homophobic, inflexible and expansive is asking too much from me.

c) you associate reactionary tendencies with personality traits. You may benefit from familiarizing yourself with correspondence bias, a cognitive obstacle according to which circumstantially-contingent behaviors are regarded as innate personality traits, rather than as dependent on external stimuli.

tl;dr Fuck off and stop being biased against foreign forms of life, assface.

I will not stop being biased nor will foul language a case make. Now you tell me why I should not be opposed to ideologies that I find reprehensible and wholly at odd with our Western lifestyle, customs and practices?

I suggest that it is you who is na"ve. I originated in Britain and have seen the effect of mass immigration from Islamic countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and various parts of Africa.

I've seen once pleasant little tows and villages altered forever with mosques springing up, loud calls to prayer in the morning, bus drivers stopping en-route to get on the floor of the bus and pray before resuming their driving, employees using office bathrooms to wash their feet in the public washbasins, employees in stores refusing to touch boxes that contain bottles of booze, public health care costs ramped up due to the terrible effects of inbreeding and I could go on for some time here believe me.

Unlike you (I suspect) I've lived in areas of Britain that are 80% Muslim, with most of these people being from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Africa and who live and function in ways that are very alien to established Western lifestyles.

Perhaps you've only lived in areas where Muslims are a minority or are largely local in origin (like Nation of Islam) but you need to understand real Islam and people from countries which are Islamic do not respect our ways they do not and instead they often demand that we respect them they never bend the other way.

Why should I show any respect for an ideology that has such a damaging impact upon the host country and its population?

Harry.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/7/2013 8:21:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
How are you a libertarian? Whenever a supposed "crisis" occurs, every authoritarian jumps at the opportunity to expand governmental power under the pretense of public security or some sh!t like that. Individual liberties exist irrespective of the actions of the individual.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
annanicole
Posts: 19,784
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5/7/2013 10:21:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"How about he and the rest of the family show some respect for the feelings and traditions of non-Muslims in their own country?"

Bury him in whatever way his family wishes, but put a star of David and a cross on his tombstone.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,585
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5/7/2013 10:59:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 8:21:57 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
How are you a libertarian? Whenever a supposed "crisis" occurs, every authoritarian jumps at the opportunity to expand governmental power under the pretense of public security or some sh!t like that. Individual liberties exist irrespective of the actions of the individual.

What has your question got to do with this topic? I don't follow you...

Harry.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/8/2013 5:35:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Harry, it's not your concern where he is buried. The uncle is attempting to make private transactions with Boston cemeteries, and it is not the place of other people to decide whether or not he can make them. If the cemeteries do not want him, they will not accept him, and if they do accept him, it is not your concern. I don't see why the burial practices should not be followed just because you want revenge on his body or whatever.

Anyways, given your admitted Islamophobia, I am interested to know what you think of recent FBI statistics that indicate that Jews have committed more acts of terrorism on US soil than Muslims have.

http://whatreallyhappened.com...
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,585
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5/8/2013 8:05:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 5:35:55 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Harry, it's not your concern where he is buried. The uncle is attempting to make private transactions with Boston cemeteries, and it is not the place of other people to decide whether or not he can make them. If the cemeteries do not want him, they will not accept him, and if they do accept him, it is not your concern. I don't see why the burial practices should not be followed just because you want revenge on his body or whatever.

Anyways, given your admitted Islamophobia, I am interested to know what you think of recent FBI statistics that indicate that Jews have committed more acts of terrorism on US soil than Muslims have.

http://whatreallyhappened.com...

Are you trying to tell me I'm prohibited from discussing a topic that is in the news?

I'm sorry but that really addresses zero of the points I raised in my OP.

Refusing to respect Islam just because you think I should is not a phobia, my opposition to the growth of Islam in the West is entirely rational and evidence based.

Harry.