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Please Vote! Obamaland or Libertyland?

teddy2013
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5/26/2013 12:47:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
First, let me give credit to Cowboy0108 who inspired this post. Cowboy0108 put forward the idea that America is divided by Blue and Red States, and that they fundamentally view things differently, and neither is happy with the status quo, He offered an alternative where the States would peacefully divide into two separate countries, so that each could set the laws and policies they believe in.

I propose that the liberal Country be named Obamaland and would be comprised of the West Coast and Northeast States, as well as Illinois. The more conservative States in the South and the West plus Alaska, Indiana and Missouri would be called Libertyland. A handful of swing States would need to vote on which Country they wish to join.

I have listed below 5 major issues and the policies of both Countries on these issues. I ask that DDO members vote for which Country they would join, and state why. I have deliberately listed 5 issues, so that members who are divided could vote for the Country they agree with on at least 3 issues.

ABORTION

Obamaland
Abortion would be available upon demand, including to teenagers without parental consent.

Libertyland
Abortion would generally be outlawed, with an exception for the life of the mother. Other exceptions such as where rape or incest are concerned would be considered. (As a practical matter those seeking abortions would travel to Obamaland where there would be no limitations).

DEATH PENALTY

Obamaland
The death penalty is already banned in many blue States, and used infrequently in other blue States. Obamaland would have few executions. When an execution is done it would be after many years of waiting and the prisoner would be allowed to die peacefully by lethal injection.

Libertyland
Criminals charged with murder, rape, or child molesting, would be tried by a jury of their peers. If convicted, a three Judge panel would review the conviction. If affirmed the prisoner would immediately be put to death in the electric chair. Family members of the victims would be given the option of throwing the switch.

Gay Rights

Obamaland
Gay marriage is allowed and is treated as equal in every way to heterosexual marriage.

Gays are allowed to serve openly in the military, and their marriage partners are entitled to live in military housing, and have all the rights of military spouses.

Gays are given protected status to homosexuals in employment and housing.
Refusing to hire or rent to homosexuals because they are homosexual is a crime.

Homosexuality is taught in the schools that it is an acceptable and moral lifestyle and equal to heterosexuals in every way.

Libertyland
Libertyland defines marriage as one man and one women. There is no legal recognition of gay marriage or civil unions, Any gay marriage or civil unions from Obamaland or any other entity are null and void in Libertyland.

Libertyland considers homosexuality to be incompatible with military service and therefore does not allow gays in their military. Recruits are asked if they are homosexual, an affirmative answer makes a recruit ineligible. Any individual who subsequently is discovered to be gay is discharged immediately and faces criminal prosecution for lying in the first place.

Libertyland does not offer any other protected status to homosexuals in employment, housing, or in any other way.

Libertyland teaches in their schools that no one should be hateful towards homosexuals, but that the homosexual lifestyle is dangerous and unhealthy, and not considered an acceptable lifestyle.

GUN CONTROL

Obamaland
Expect sweeping gun control which would increase over time.

Libertyland
Gun control would be limited to convicted felons and those certified as mentally ill. Libertyland would deal with gun violence not by imposing restrictions on law abiding citizens, but by executing criminals convicted of murder.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

Obamaland-
Illegal immigrants would be forced to pay a fine, and be offered an amnesty with the potential for citizenship over time.

Libertyland
Legal immigration would be offered to those who seek to enter the Country legally. Illegal immigrants would receive twenty lashes of the whip and be deported.

Now, I will start the voting. Please list your name under the Country you choose, and please feel free to list your reasons for your vote

Obamaland

Libertyland

Teddy2013,
I choose Libertyland because I want to live in a Country where law abiding citizens have rights (the unborn, gun owners, legal immigrants), and where law breakers (criminals, illegal immigrants) are punished. I also do not want to live in a Country where political correctness and the gay agenda rule (Obamaland).
drhead
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5/26/2013 1:28:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
ABORTION

Obamaland
Abortion would be available upon demand, including to teenagers without parental consent.

Libertyland
Abortion would generally be outlawed, with an exception for the life of the mother. Other exceptions such as where rape or incest are concerned would be considered. (As a practical matter those seeking abortions would travel to Obamaland where there would be no limitations).

"An embryo has no rights. Rights do not pertain to a potential, only to an actual being. A child cannot acquire any rights until it is born. The living take precedence over the not-yet-living (or the unborn).

Abortion is a moral right"which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered. Who can conceivably have the right to dictate to her what disposition she is to make of the functions of her own body?"
- Ayn Rand. That's right, I actually quoted Ayn Rand.

DEATH PENALTY

Obamaland
The death penalty is already banned in many blue States, and used infrequently in other blue States. Obamaland would have few executions. When an execution is done it would be after many years of waiting and the prisoner would be allowed to die peacefully by lethal injection.

Libertyland
Criminals charged with murder, rape, or child molesting, would be tried by a jury of their peers. If convicted, a three Judge panel would review the conviction. If affirmed the prisoner would immediately be put to death in the electric chair. Family members of the victims would be given the option of throwing the switch.

I don't even see the comparison here. I mean, nothing screams liberty like being executed by your government.

Gay Rights

Obamaland
Gay marriage is allowed and is treated as equal in every way to heterosexual marriage.
Gays are allowed to serve openly in the military, and their marriage partners are entitled to live in military housing, and have all the rights of military spouses.
Gays are given protected status to homosexuals in employment and housing.
Refusing to hire or rent to homosexuals because they are homosexual is a crime.
Homosexuality is taught in the schools that it is an acceptable and moral lifestyle and equal to heterosexuals in every way.

Libertyland
Libertyland defines marriage as one man and one women. There is no legal recognition of gay marriage or civil unions, Any gay marriage or civil unions from Obamaland or any other entity are null and void in Libertyland.
Libertyland considers homosexuality to be incompatible with military service and therefore does not allow gays in their military. Recruits are asked if they are homosexual, an affirmative answer makes a recruit ineligible. Any individual who subsequently is discovered to be gay is discharged immediately and faces criminal prosecution for lying in the first place.
Libertyland does not offer any other protected status to homosexuals in employment, housing, or in any other way.
Libertyland teaches in their schools that no one should be hateful towards homosexuals, but that the homosexual lifestyle is dangerous and unhealthy, and not considered an acceptable lifestyle.

Once again, nothing screams freedom like meaninglessly persecuting one group.

GUN CONTROL

Obamaland
Expect sweeping gun control which would increase over time.

Libertyland
Gun control would be limited to convicted felons and those certified as mentally ill. Libertyland would deal with gun violence not by imposing restrictions on law abiding citizens, but by executing criminals convicted of murder.

Because killing more people after the fact always makes things better. Fight fire with fire!

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

Obamaland-
Illegal immigrants would be forced to pay a fine, and be offered an amnesty with the potential for citizenship over time.

Libertyland
Legal immigration would be offered to those who seek to enter the Country legally. Illegal immigrants would receive twenty lashes of the whip and be deported.

I honestly hope you're joking about the 20 lashes. In fact, I hope you're joking about the gay rights section, too - may I ask what you have against homosexuals?
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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5/26/2013 1:42:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 1:28:42 AM, drhead wrote:
ABORTION

Obamaland
Abortion would be available upon demand, including to teenagers without parental consent.

Libertyland
Abortion would generally be outlawed, with an exception for the life of the mother. Other exceptions such as where rape or incest are concerned would be considered. (As a practical matter those seeking abortions would travel to Obamaland where there would be no limitations).

"An embryo has no rights. Rights do not pertain to a potential, only to an actual being. A child cannot acquire any rights until it is born. The living take precedence over the not-yet-living (or the unborn).

Abortion is a moral right"which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered. Who can conceivably have the right to dictate to her what disposition she is to make of the functions of her own body?"
- Ayn Rand. That's right, I actually quoted Ayn Rand.


Gold star for you.

DEATH PENALTY

Obamaland
The death penalty is already banned in many blue States, and used infrequently in other blue States. Obamaland would have few executions. When an execution is done it would be after many years of waiting and the prisoner would be allowed to die peacefully by lethal injection.

Libertyland
Criminals charged with murder, rape, or child molesting, would be tried by a jury of their peers. If convicted, a three Judge panel would review the conviction. If affirmed the prisoner would immediately be put to death in the electric chair. Family members of the victims would be given the option of throwing the switch.

I don't even see the comparison here. I mean, nothing screams liberty like being executed by your government.

Gay Rights

Obamaland
Gay marriage is allowed and is treated as equal in every way to heterosexual marriage.
Gays are allowed to serve openly in the military, and their marriage partners are entitled to live in military housing, and have all the rights of military spouses.
Gays are given protected status to homosexuals in employment and housing.
Refusing to hire or rent to homosexuals because they are homosexual is a crime.
Homosexuality is taught in the schools that it is an acceptable and moral lifestyle and equal to heterosexuals in every way.

Libertyland
Libertyland defines marriage as one man and one women. There is no legal recognition of gay marriage or civil unions, Any gay marriage or civil unions from Obamaland or any other entity are null and void in Libertyland.
Libertyland considers homosexuality to be incompatible with military service and therefore does not allow gays in their military. Recruits are asked if they are homosexual, an affirmative answer makes a recruit ineligible. Any individual who subsequently is discovered to be gay is discharged immediately and faces criminal prosecution for lying in the first place.
Libertyland does not offer any other protected status to homosexuals in employment, housing, or in any other way.
Libertyland teaches in their schools that no one should be hateful towards homosexuals, but that the homosexual lifestyle is dangerous and unhealthy, and not considered an acceptable lifestyle.

Once again, nothing screams freedom like meaninglessly persecuting one group.

GUN CONTROL

Obamaland
Expect sweeping gun control which would increase over time.

Libertyland
Gun control would be limited to convicted felons and those certified as mentally ill. Libertyland would deal with gun violence not by imposing restrictions on law abiding citizens, but by executing criminals convicted of murder.

Because killing more people after the fact always makes things better. Fight fire with fire!

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

Obamaland-
Illegal immigrants would be forced to pay a fine, and be offered an amnesty with the potential for citizenship over time.

Libertyland
Legal immigration would be offered to those who seek to enter the Country legally. Illegal immigrants would receive twenty lashes of the whip and be deported.

I honestly hope you're joking about the 20 lashes. In fact, I hope you're joking about the gay rights section, too - may I ask what you have against homosexuals?
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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5/26/2013 9:03:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 12:47:06 AM, teddy2013 wrote:
Libertyland
Libertyland considers homosexuality to be incompatible with military service and therefore does not allow gays in their military. Recruits are asked if they are homosexual, an affirmative answer makes a recruit ineligible. Any individual who subsequently is discovered to be gay is discharged immediately and faces criminal prosecution for lying in the first place.

Lol, tell that to Sparta.

Libertyland sounds like some Orwellian dystopia with a pathetically ironic name. This sort of nonsense is why the Republican party loses time and time again; Obamaland sounds pretty horrible to me, but it's peaches and cream compared to your sunny little moral autocracy.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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5/26/2013 9:09:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
" If convicted, a three Judge panel would review the conviction."

I actually like the idea of judges replacing the current jury system.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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5/26/2013 9:10:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 9:09:33 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
" If convicted, a three Judge panel would review the conviction."

I actually like the idea of judges replacing the current jury system.

Oh, but this would just be for the death penalty. Nvm.
teddy2013
Posts: 119
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5/26/2013 9:14:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 1:28:42 AM, drhead wrote:
ABORTION

Obamaland
Abortion would be available upon demand, including to teenagers without parental consent.

Libertyland
Abortion would generally be outlawed, with an exception for the life of the mother. Other exceptions such as where rape or incest are concerned would be considered. (As a practical matter those seeking abortions would travel to Obamaland where there would be no limitations).

"An embryo has no rights. Rights do not pertain to a potential, only to an actual being. A child cannot acquire any rights until it is born. The living take precedence over the not-yet-living (or the unborn).

Abortion is a moral right"which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered. Who can conceivably have the right to dictate to her what disposition she is to make of the functions of her own body?"
- Ayn Rand. That's right, I actually quoted Ayn Rand.

DEATH PENALTY

Obamaland
The death penalty is already banned in many blue States, and used infrequently in other blue States. Obamaland would have few executions. When an execution is done it would be after many years of waiting and the prisoner would be allowed to die peacefully by lethal injection.

Libertyland
Criminals charged with murder, rape, or child molesting, would be tried by a jury of their peers. If convicted, a three Judge panel would review the conviction. If affirmed the prisoner would immediately be put to death in the electric chair. Family members of the victims would be given the option of throwing the switch.

I don't even see the comparison here. I mean, nothing screams liberty like being executed by your government.

Gay Rights

Obamaland
Gay marriage is allowed and is treated as equal in every way to heterosexual marriage.
Gays are allowed to serve openly in the military, and their marriage partners are entitled to live in military housing, and have all the rights of military spouses.
Gays are given protected status to homosexuals in employment and housing.
Refusing to hire or rent to homosexuals because they are homosexual is a crime.
Homosexuality is taught in the schools that it is an acceptable and moral lifestyle and equal to heterosexuals in every way.

Libertyland
Libertyland defines marriage as one man and one women. There is no legal recognition of gay marriage or civil unions, Any gay marriage or civil unions from Obamaland or any other entity are null and void in Libertyland.
Libertyland considers homosexuality to be incompatible with military service and therefore does not allow gays in their military. Recruits are asked if they are homosexual, an affirmative answer makes a recruit ineligible. Any individual who subsequently is discovered to be gay is discharged immediately and faces criminal prosecution for lying in the first place.
Libertyland does not offer any other protected status to homosexuals in employment, housing, or in any other way.
Libertyland teaches in their schools that no one should be hateful towards homosexuals, but that the homosexual lifestyle is dangerous and unhealthy, and not considered an acceptable lifestyle.

Once again, nothing screams freedom like meaninglessly persecuting one group.

GUN CONTROL

Obamaland
Expect sweeping gun control which would increase over time.

Libertyland
Gun control would be limited to convicted felons and those certified as mentally ill. Libertyland would deal with gun violence not by imposing restrictions on law abiding citizens, but by executing criminals convicted of murder.

Because killing more people after the fact always makes things better. Fight fire with fire!

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

Obamaland-
Illegal immigrants would be forced to pay a fine, and be offered an amnesty with the potential for citizenship over time.

Libertyland
Legal immigration would be offered to those who seek to enter the Country legally. Illegal immigrants would receive twenty lashes of the whip and be deported.

I honestly hope you're joking about the 20 lashes. In fact, I hope you're joking about the gay rights section, too - may I ask what you have against homosexuals?

Hey, you forgot to vote. Obviously you would live in Obamaland. This thread shows why the two nation solution is needed, the differences are too wide. In fairness we both support rights, the only difference is whose rights we support. You support the rights of those seeking abortion, criminals, illegal immigrants, those who want to limit guns, and homosexuals . I support the rights of the unborn, victims of crime, law abiding gun holders, legal immigrants, and the right for heterosexual marines to be able to shower without fear that the guy next to him is checking him out.

Also, I am serious about the twenty lashes and would also give them to the employer who knowingly hires illegals, it may seem harsh but it would solve the illegal problem. As for gays, they are free to do whatever they choose in the privacy of their homes, however I see no reason to extend any rights based on homosexuality. You can have that in Obamaland.

Now, if you want your gold star, please vote, I give you a spot below.

OBAMALAND

LIBERTYLAND
TEDDY2013
teddy2013
Posts: 119
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5/26/2013 9:18:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 9:10:31 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/26/2013 9:09:33 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
" If convicted, a three Judge panel would review the conviction."

I actually like the idea of judges replacing the current jury system.

Oh, but this would just be for the death penalty. Nvm.

Cast your vote, get your gold star.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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5/26/2013 9:24:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 9:18:03 AM, teddy2013 wrote:
At 5/26/2013 9:10:31 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/26/2013 9:09:33 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
" If convicted, a three Judge panel would review the conviction."

I actually like the idea of judges replacing the current jury system.

Oh, but this would just be for the death penalty. Nvm.

Cast your vote, get your gold star.

Obamaland.
teddy2013
Posts: 119
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5/26/2013 9:52:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 9:24:05 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/26/2013 9:18:03 AM, teddy2013 wrote:
At 5/26/2013 9:10:31 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/26/2013 9:09:33 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
" If convicted, a three Judge panel would review the conviction."

I actually like the idea of judges replacing the current jury system.

Oh, but this would just be for the death penalty. Nvm.

Cast your vote, get your gold star.

Obamaland.

Thanks, your gold star will arrive in the mail in 4 to 6 weeks.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/26/2013 10:02:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think you don't know the definition of "liberty." Except on gun control and immigration, a true "liberty land" would likely enact the same policies as Obamaland.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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5/26/2013 11:03:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Libertyland sounds just so absolutely free.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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5/26/2013 11:13:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 9:14:42 AM, teddy2013 wrote:
Hey, you forgot to vote. Obviously you would live in Obamaland. This thread shows why the two nation solution is needed, the differences are too wide. In fairness we both support rights, the only difference is whose rights we support.

So you think we have to choose who to screw over?

You support the rights of those seeking abortion,

...who should have the right to do what they want with their body and its contents,

criminals,

...who are probably better punished by life imprisonment anyways,

illegal immigrants,

...who came here because their home country is probably sh!t, and should be given an opportunity to legally immigrate,

those who want to limit guns,

Wtf? How is limiting guns a right?

and homosexuals.

...who are people, too.

I support the rights of the unborn,

...who, as potentials, do not have rights (see quote from last post),

victims of crime,

...who are not entitled to the execution of the person who committed a crime,

law abiding gun holders,

...who would still have the right to bear arms under any gun control system,

legal immigrants,

...whose rights would not be infringed,

and the right for heterosexual marines to be able to shower without fear that the guy next to him is checking him out.

...which is a rather irrational fear.

Also, I am serious about the twenty lashes and would also give them to the employer who knowingly hires illegals, it may seem harsh but it would solve the illegal problem.

Cruel and unusual punishment = unconstitutional.

As for gays, they are free to do whatever they choose in the privacy of their homes, however I see no reason to extend any rights based on homosexuality. You can have that in Obamaland.

Do you see any reason not to?
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
teddy2013
Posts: 119
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5/27/2013 5:03:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 1:28:42 AM, drhead wrote:

drhead, you are as strong advocate for your point of view. You should seek a leadership role in Obamaland. I seek to have friendly relations with your Country. Below, I have responded to some of your responses to my original posts. I am not as good in responding with one line sentences as you are, so I will limit my responses to a few issues at a time.

ABORTION

Obamaland
Abortion would be available upon demand, including to teenagers without parental consent.

Libertyland
Abortion would generally be outlawed, with an exception for the life of the mother. Other exceptions such as where rape or incest are concerned would be considered. (As a practical matter those seeking abortions would travel to Obamaland where there would be no limitations).

"An embryo has no rights. Rights do not pertain to a potential, only to an actual being. A child cannot acquire any rights until it is born. The living take precedence over the not-yet-living (or the unborn).

Abortion is a moral right"which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered. Who can conceivably have the right to dictate to her what disposition she is to make of the functions of her own body?"
- Ayn Rand. That's right, I actually quoted Ayn Rand.

You are free to quote whoever you like. While I appreciate the argument that it is a woman's choice, some consideration needs to be given to the fact that this "choice" ends a life.
Liberals often cite science on many issues (which I agree with), but to be consistent you can not ignore science when it comes to the unborn. The science available through ultrasound shows development in the unborn that we did not know of when Roe vs. Wade was decided.
In Libertyland we base our pro life stand on science, and give consideration to these lives. In reality, anyone seeking an abortion will travel to Obamaland anyway. I realize this may be inconvenient, but not as inconvenient as it is to the unborn.
DEATH PENALTY

Obamaland
The death penalty is already banned in many blue States, and used infrequently in other blue States. Obamaland would have few executions. When an execution is done it would be after many years of waiting and the prisoner would be allowed to die peacefully by lethal injection.

Libertyland
Criminals charged with murder, rape, or child molesting, would be tried by a jury of their peers. If convicted, a three Judge panel would review the conviction. If affirmed the prisoner would immediately be put to death in the electric chair. Family members of the victims would be given the option of throwing the switch.

I don't even see the comparison here. I mean, nothing screams liberty like being executed by your government.

It is true that in Libertyland, those who murder do lose their liberty, you got me on that one. The liberty that is extended, is to the surviving love ones of victims who do not have to co-habitat this earth with those who took from them that which was most precious to them. Think in terms of Mark Klaus, father of Polly Klaus. In Libertyland we do.

Gay Rights

Obamaland
Gay marriage is allowed and is treated as equal in every way to heterosexual marriage.
Gays are allowed to serve openly in the military, and their marriage partners are entitled to live in military housing, and have all the rights of military spouses.
Gays are given protected status to homosexuals in employment and housing.
Refusing to hire or rent to homosexuals because they are homosexual is a crime.
Homosexuality is taught in the schools that it is an acceptable and moral lifestyle and equal to heterosexuals in every way.

Libertyland
Libertyland defines marriage as one man and one women. There is no legal recognition of gay marriage or civil unions, Any gay marriage or civil unions from Obamaland or any other entity are null and void in Libertyland.
Libertyland considers homosexuality to be incompatible with military service and therefore does not allow gays in their military. Recruits are asked if they are homosexual, an affirmative answer makes a recruit ineligible. Any individual who subsequently is discovered to be gay is discharged immediately and faces criminal prosecution for lying in the first place.
Libertyland does not offer any other protected status to homosexuals in employment, housing, or in any other way.
Libertyland teaches in their schools that no one should be hateful towards homosexuals, but that the homosexual lifestyle is dangerous and unhealthy, and not considered an acceptable lifestyle.

Once again, nothing screams freedom like meaninglessly persecuting one group.

Nothing listed above is persecuting anyone. In Libertyland we simply believe that the role of Government in marriage should be limited, extending those rights to those relationships which can at least in theory procreate is an appropriate place to draw the line. For a more elaborate explanation check out any of the numerous debates by 16adams, who is a leading advocate for defining marriage as between a man and a women.

As for the military excluding gays, this is done for practical reasons and does not suggest gays are not patriotic (of course they are). The battlefield is not the place for having the certain sexual feelings, behaviors, and conflicts that would result between gay servicemen and between gay and straight servicemen.

Also, in Libertyland gay landlords and business owners are free to hire or rent to only gays, if they choose. Same goes for heterosexual landlords and business owners.

GUN CONTROL

Obamaland
Expect sweeping gun control which would increase over time.

Libertyland
Gun control would be limited to convicted felons and those certified as mentally ill. Libertyland would deal with gun violence not by imposing restrictions on law abiding citizens, but by executing criminals convicted of murder.

Because killing more people after the fact always makes things better. Fight fire with fire!

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

Obamaland-
Illegal immigrants would be forced to pay a fine, and be offered an amnesty with the potential for citizenship over time.

Libertyland
Legal immigration would be offered to those who seek to enter the Country legally. Illegal immigrants would receive twenty lashes of the whip and be deported.

I honestly hope you're joking about the 20 lashes. In fact, I hope you're joking about the gay rights section, too - may I ask what you have against homosexuals?
Graincruncher
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5/27/2013 5:10:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
When an execution is done it would be after many years of waiting and the prisoner would be allowed to die peacefully by lethal injection.

I... what? There is nothing peaceful about death by lethal injection.
teddy2013
Posts: 119
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5/27/2013 5:17:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/27/2013 5:10:48 PM, Graincruncher wrote:
When an execution is done it would be after many years of waiting and the prisoner would be allowed to die peacefully by lethal injection.

I... what? There is nothing peaceful about death by lethal injection.

It is nearly always more peaceful then the deaths of their victims.
Graincruncher
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5/27/2013 5:21:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I forgot that as a society we should be judging out behaviour by the lowest common denominator and ignoring any lofty ideals of compassion or moral integrity.
teddy2013
Posts: 119
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5/27/2013 5:35:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/27/2013 5:21:41 PM, Graincruncher wrote:
I forgot that as a society we should be judging out behaviour by the lowest common denominator and ignoring any lofty ideals of compassion or moral integrity.

In Libertyland the compassion is for the loved ones of the victims.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/27/2013 5:35:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/27/2013 5:21:41 PM, Graincruncher wrote:
I forgot that as a society we should be judging out behaviour by the lowest common denominator and ignoring any lofty ideals of compassion or moral integrity.

Nicely phrased.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
teddy2013
Posts: 119
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5/27/2013 7:05:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2013 12:47:06 AM, teddy2013 wrote:

First, let me give credit to Cowboy0108 who inspired this post. Cowboy0108 put forward the idea that America is divided by Blue and Red States, and that they fundamentally view things differently, and neither is happy with the status quo, He offered an alternative where the States would peacefully divide into two separate countries, so that each could set the laws and policies they believe in.

I propose that the liberal Country be named Obamaland and would be comprised of the West Coast and Northeast States, as well as Illinois. The more conservative States in the South and the West plus Alaska, Indiana and Missouri would be called Libertyland. A handful of swing States would need to vote on which Country they wish to join.

I have listed below 5 major issues and the policies of both Countries on these issues. I ask that DDO members vote for which Country they would join, and state why. I have deliberately listed 5 issues, so that members who are divided could vote for the Country they agree with on at least 3 issues.

ABORTION

Obamaland
Abortion would be available upon demand, including to teenagers without parental consent.

Libertyland
Abortion would generally be outlawed, with an exception for the life of the mother. Other exceptions such as where rape or incest are concerned would be considered. (As a practical matter those seeking abortions would travel to Obamaland where there would be no limitations).

DEATH PENALTY

Obamaland
The death penalty is already banned in many blue States, and used infrequently in other blue States. Obamaland would have few executions. When an execution is done it would be after many years of waiting and the prisoner would be allowed to die peacefully by lethal injection.

Libertyland
Criminals charged with murder, rape, or child molesting, would be tried by a jury of their peers. If convicted, a three Judge panel would review the conviction. If affirmed the prisoner would immediately be put to death in the electric chair. Family members of the victims would be given the option of throwing the switch.


Gay Rights

Obamaland
Gay marriage is allowed and is treated as equal in every way to heterosexual marriage.

Gays are allowed to serve openly in the military, and their marriage partners are entitled to live in military housing, and have all the rights of military spouses.

Gays are given protected status to homosexuals in employment and housing.
Refusing to hire or rent to homosexuals because they are homosexual is a crime.

Homosexuality is taught in the schools that it is an acceptable and moral lifestyle and equal to heterosexuals in every way.

Libertyland
Libertyland defines marriage as one man and one women. There is no legal recognition of gay marriage or civil unions, Any gay marriage or civil unions from Obamaland or any other entity are null and void in Libertyland.

Libertyland considers homosexuality to be incompatible with military service and therefore does not allow gays in their military. Recruits are asked if they are homosexual, an affirmative answer makes a recruit ineligible. Any individual who subsequently is discovered to be gay is discharged immediately and faces criminal prosecution for lying in the first place.

Libertyland does not offer any other protected status to homosexuals in employment, housing, or in any other way.

Libertyland teaches in their schools that no one should be hateful towards homosexuals, but that the homosexual lifestyle is dangerous and unhealthy, and not considered an acceptable lifestyle.


GUN CONTROL

Obamaland
Expect sweeping gun control which would increase over time.

Libertyland
Gun control would be limited to convicted felons and those certified as mentally ill. Libertyland would deal with gun violence not by imposing restrictions on law abiding citizens, but by executing criminals convicted of murder.


ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

Obamaland-
Illegal immigrants would be forced to pay a fine, and be offered an amnesty with the potential for citizenship over time.

Libertyland
Legal immigration would be offered to those who seek to enter the Country legally. Illegal immigrants would receive twenty lashes of the whip and be deported.


Now, I will start the voting. Please list your name under the Country you choose, and please feel free to list your reasons for your vote

Obamaland




Libertyland

Teddy2013,
I choose Libertyland because I want to live in a Country where law abiding citizens have rights (the unborn, gun owners, legal immigrants), and where law breakers (criminals, illegal immigrants) are punished. I also do not want to live in a Country where political correctness and the gay agenda rule (Obamaland).

I need some support here. So far I am the only one who wants to live in Libertyland. Everyone else wants to live in Obamaland. Based on the posts, I recommend the following positions of leadership for Obamaland.

Drhead- President- (since he has been the most articulate in presenting his arguments)

Dylancatlow- Vice President- (his only job is to hand out gold stars)

Grainmuncher and Lordnuckle- In charge of criminal rights (perhaps they can find a more humane method of executing then lethal injection)

Skepsikyma- In charge of changing the definition of marriage
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
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5/27/2013 7:07:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
die slowly because of this misguided bullsh!t filled forum topic. just you teddy
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
teddy2013
Posts: 119
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5/27/2013 7:24:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/27/2013 7:07:42 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
die slowly because of this misguided bullsh!t filled forum topic. just you teddy

Nice to meet you. Does this mean I should put you down for Obamaland?

Also, relax, just because you do not agree with someone does not mean you should wish their death. Besides, I do hope to die slowly, I hope it takes at least another 60 years.

Your profile says against the death penalty. Are you making an exception for me? You may have anger issues, even your signature is violent. Just relax.
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
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5/27/2013 7:30:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/27/2013 7:24:08 PM, teddy2013 wrote:
At 5/27/2013 7:07:42 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
die slowly because of this misguided bullsh!t filled forum topic. just you teddy


Nice to meet you. Does this mean I should put you down for Obamaland?

Also, relax, just because you do not agree with someone does not mean you should wish their death. Besides, I do hope to die slowly, I hope it takes at least another 60 years.

Your profile says against the death penalty. Are you making an exception for me? You may have anger issues, even your signature is violent. Just relax.

i have been desensitized greatly by today's scifi media. and i don't agree with either of them
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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5/27/2013 7:50:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/27/2013 7:30:49 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 5/27/2013 7:24:08 PM, teddy2013 wrote:
At 5/27/2013 7:07:42 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
die slowly because of this misguided bullsh!t filled forum topic. just you teddy


Nice to meet you. Does this mean I should put you down for Obamaland?

Also, relax, just because you do not agree with someone does not mean you should wish their death. Besides, I do hope to die slowly, I hope it takes at least another 60 years.

Your profile says against the death penalty. Are you making an exception for me? You may have anger issues, even your signature is violent. Just relax.

i have been desensitized greatly by today's scifi media. and i don't agree with either of them

Teddy's a troll cyber, stop feeding him.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
teddy2013
Posts: 119
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5/27/2013 8:02:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/27/2013 7:50:25 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 5/27/2013 7:30:49 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 5/27/2013 7:24:08 PM, teddy2013 wrote:
At 5/27/2013 7:07:42 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
die slowly because of this misguided bullsh!t filled forum topic. just you teddy


Nice to meet you. Does this mean I should put you down for Obamaland?

Also, relax, just because you do not agree with someone does not mean you should wish their death. Besides, I do hope to die slowly, I hope it takes at least another 60 years.

Your profile says against the death penalty. Are you making an exception for me? You may have anger issues, even your signature is violent. Just relax.

i have been desensitized greatly by today's scifi media. and i don't agree with either of them

Teddy's a troll cyber, stop feeding him.

All I have done is started a thread, laid out my thoughts, responded to others, and treated everyone with respect, and tried a little humor. Is that not what this site is all about? You do not have to try to stop the debate just because you disagree. I hope you respond, but understand if you do not. In the meantime I will put you down for Obamaland. Thanks, Teddy2013
teddy2013
Posts: 119
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5/27/2013 8:03:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/27/2013 7:30:49 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 5/27/2013 7:24:08 PM, teddy2013 wrote:
At 5/27/2013 7:07:42 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
die slowly because of this misguided bullsh!t filled forum topic. just you teddy


Nice to meet you. Does this mean I should put you down for Obamaland?

Also, relax, just because you do not agree with someone does not mean you should wish their death. Besides, I do hope to die slowly, I hope it takes at least another 60 years.

Your profile says against the death penalty. Are you making an exception for me? You may have anger issues, even your signature is violent. Just relax.

i have been desensitized greatly by today's scifi media. and i don't agree with either of them

Thanks, Teddy2013
Cowboy0108
Posts: 420
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5/27/2013 11:02:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I, Cowboy0108, will gladly assume leadership over Libertyland, as this is the only nation who stands a chance. However, Libertyland is not just a nation with a chance, it is a nation which, under the right leadership, can prosper.
Allow me to defend libertyland.

Gays/Homosexuals

Never has Teddy said that he desire the persecution of gays. He simply says that the government shall pass no law respecting the protection of gays from the private sector. Can someone please tell me how a business owner does not reserve the right to choose who he or she wants or does not want to hire. Libertyland gives the liberty to the business owners. It does not take the liberty from the gays either. It, further, restricts gays from being in the military. This may be partly for the keeping a societal balance in the ships between straights and gays. Gays will be mocked and scorned by the straights on a regular basis.

Guns

I have read no comments. I am completely for the gun control established in the plan for Libertyland.

Illegal Immigration

Many say that this takes the liberty away from people. Libertyland is the way it is for the purpose of giving its citizens liberty. Those who are not citizens pose a risk of affecting the way the country runs, thus risks a loss of liberty for our citizens.

Abortion

In cases of pregnancy, two separate, but conjoined, parties have an opportunity for liberty. The mother and the child. The mother, in most cases, had the liberty to choose to risk having sex. The mother had the liberty to make that choice. The child had no liberty in deciding whether or not he or she wanted to be conceived. Therefore, as the mother had the liberty to make her decision, we will allow to give the child an opportunity for liberty and a successful life in Libertyland.

Death Penalty

Criminals have had liberty. They had the liberty to choose to kill, rape, or molest. They did not possess the liberty to actually do those things. They knew the ramifications of doing these things when they did them. Libertylands plan will deter crime and will also make prisons and jails less expensive to support as they would possess a lower population. This plan is also cheaper than the plan instituted by Obamaland or even America.

I, as leader of the great state of libertyland, vote to reside in libertyland with my second in command being Teddy2013. We will give liberty back to our citizens. We will give everyone a chance. We will make people suffer the ramifications of wasting a chance.
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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5/28/2013 12:35:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/27/2013 5:03:38 PM, teddy2013 wrote:
At 5/26/2013 1:28:42 AM, drhead wrote:

drhead, you are as strong advocate for your point of view. You should seek a leadership role in Obamaland. I seek to have friendly relations with your Country. Below, I have responded to some of your responses to my original posts. I am not as good in responding with one line sentences as you are, so I will limit my responses to a few issues at a time.

ABORTION
You are free to quote whoever you like. While I appreciate the argument that it is a woman's choice, some consideration needs to be given to the fact that this "choice" ends a life.
Liberals often cite science on many issues (which I agree with), but to be consistent you can not ignore science when it comes to the unborn. The science available through ultrasound shows development in the unborn that we did not know of when Roe vs. Wade was decided.
In Libertyland we base our pro life stand on science, and give consideration to these lives. In reality, anyone seeking an abortion will travel to Obamaland anyway. I realize this may be inconvenient, but not as inconvenient as it is to the unborn.

Are these embryos self-aware, self-sustaining lifeforms capable of reasoning? If not, why are they suddenly more valuable than me? Why am I not entitled to free meals and free room and board when these embryos are? Refusing to allow a starving homeless person eat and sleep at my house would probably result in a life ending, too, but that doesn't mean that I have to go out of my way to help someone.

DEATH PENALTY
It is true that in Libertyland, those who murder do lose their liberty, you got me on that one. The liberty that is extended, is to the surviving love ones of victims who do not have to co-habitat this earth with those who took from them that which was most precious to them. Think in terms of Mark Klaus, father of Polly Klaus. In Libertyland we do.

What, so life imprisonment just isn't enough? Isn't life imprisonment taking away someones life, and forcing them to live it in solitary confinement? Execution is an easy way out - they die, and they're done. Life imprisonment would eventually make someone beg for death.

Gay Rights
Nothing listed above is persecuting anyone. In Libertyland we simply believe that the role of Government in marriage should be limited, extending those rights to those relationships which can at least in theory procreate is an appropriate place to draw the line. For a more elaborate explanation check out any of the numerous debates by 16adams, who is a leading advocate for defining marriage as between a man and a women.

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to debate 16kadams on same-sex marriage, though I have debated others and have made extensive cases for the legalization of same-sex marriage. Drawing the line at procreation would mean that you should require fertility screenings before someone is allowed to marry, by the way - don't want to create double standards, now do we?

As for the military excluding gays, this is done for practical reasons and does not suggest gays are not patriotic (of course they are). The battlefield is not the place for having the certain sexual feelings, behaviors, and conflicts that would result between gay servicemen and between gay and straight servicemen.

I'm assuming you'd ban women for the same reasons? Or, even better - have a non-interventionist foreign policy, and we will have plenty of time between now and the next big war for these straight servicemen to come to terms with their sexual insecurities.

Also, in Libertyland gay landlords and business owners are free to hire or rent to only gays, if they choose. Same goes for heterosexual landlords and business owners.

And public pressure would sort them out.
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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5/28/2013 12:45:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/27/2013 11:02:19 PM, Cowboy0108 wrote:
I, Cowboy0108, will gladly assume leadership over Libertyland, as this is the only nation who stands a chance. However, Libertyland is not just a nation with a chance, it is a nation which, under the right leadership, can prosper.
Allow me to defend libertyland.

Gays/Homosexuals

Never has Teddy said that he desire the persecution of gays. He simply says that the government shall pass no law respecting the protection of gays from the private sector. Can someone please tell me how a business owner does not reserve the right to choose who he or she wants or does not want to hire. Libertyland gives the liberty to the business owners. It does not take the liberty from the gays either. It, further, restricts gays from being in the military. This may be partly for the keeping a societal balance in the ships between straights and gays. Gays will be mocked and scorned by the straights on a regular basis.

It does not take liberty from them by taking away their option to die for their country?

Guns

I have read no comments. I am completely for the gun control established in the plan for Libertyland.

Illegal Immigration

Many say that this takes the liberty away from people. Libertyland is the way it is for the purpose of giving its citizens liberty. Those who are not citizens pose a risk of affecting the way the country runs, thus risks a loss of liberty for our citizens.

Abortion

In cases of pregnancy, two separate, but conjoined, parties have an opportunity for liberty. The mother and the child. The mother, in most cases, had the liberty to choose to risk having sex. The mother had the liberty to make that choice. The child had no liberty in deciding whether or not he or she wanted to be conceived. Therefore, as the mother had the liberty to make her decision, we will allow to give the child an opportunity for liberty and a successful life in Libertyland.

Until I get the same entitlement to free room and board that the embryo has, I object to this statement.

Death Penalty

Criminals have had liberty. They had the liberty to choose to kill, rape, or molest. They did not possess the liberty to actually do those things. They knew the ramifications of doing these things when they did them. Libertylands plan will deter crime and will also make prisons and jails less expensive to support as they would possess a lower population. This plan is also cheaper than the plan instituted by Obamaland or even America.

Question: What happens when your prosecutor screws up and convicts the wrong person / deceptively plea bargains for political gain? Do you have a necromancer on standby to raise the falsely convicted from the dead?

I, as leader of the great state of libertyland, vote to reside in libertyland with my second in command being Teddy2013. We will give liberty back to our citizens. We will give everyone a chance. We will make people suffer the ramifications of wasting a chance.
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian